(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

(07-13-2018 07:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Sorry, I had to pop back in for a quick question. How can any of you Trump apologists defend this trip to Europe? He's insulting our allies left and right, threatening (again) to leave NATO, blatantly lying about the outcomes of meetings, taking credit for things accomplished by his predecessors, and claiming again to be "a very stable genius". And of course claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.
Here's a description from one of the "Senior European Officials":
"Usual Trump: a stream of incoherent sentences. ... The allies looked the other way as when the old uncle gets nuts."
And then he goes to Britain and gives and interview where he criticizes May's Brexit deal, says she should have listened to him, and says Boris Johnson (who wants to topple May and become PM) would make a great Prime Minister. Whether he realizes what he is doing, I have no idea. But he literally just went to visit our closest ally and attempted to topple the government. Unprecedented doesn't capture how out of bounds this is.

Diplomacy has a certain way of being done. Trump is not a diplomat and doesn't do it that way. He does things the way he did them in business. Exaggeration and hyperbole are the land developer's stock in trade. More than anything else, he reminds me of the Rodney Dangerfield character in Caddyshack.

Will it work? Who knows? It's very high risk, which is why I did not vote for Trump. I saw him as the high risk, high reward candidate and Hillary as more the status quo. I thought the best Trump could be was better than the best Hillary could be, but that the worst he could be was worse than the worst she could be. I did not like where we were, but his beta was just a bit too high for me.

So far it's been some good, some bad, net/net probably not a whole lot better or worse than Hillary, just different goods and bads.

I do think the issues he is raising need to be raised. We really can't continue to bear the cost of being the world's policeman--in dollars, or in lives and limbs, or in the number of people it pisses off. Nor do we have as great a need as when we hatched this system to win the Cold War. But the reality is that somebody has to do it. The world is still a bad place, and some parts of it are very bad. We certainly can, and should, bear a large part of the load. But who picks up the slack and does the rest? Will that be NATO? The British Commonwealth? Japan and Korea? China? Russia? I like some of those answers better than others.

Part of the problem is that the issues Trump is raising should have been raised and resolved 25-30 years ago, when the fall of the Iron Curtain brought the Cold War to its end. We won because our economy ultimately far outperformed the USSR's, not because we won military battles. Ross Perot said what I had been thinking when he said that in the post-Cold War era, economic power will be more important than military power. We need to make that shift in gears.

We need to have the strongest military in the world, by leaps and bounds, but never to use it because nobody dares pick on us and we don't go picking on them. And we need economic, tax, regulatory, education, and infrastructure policies that enhance our ability to compete in the global market. That hasn't been our approach, because we are in many ways still fighting the Cold War. Trump is changing that. For better or worse? Who knows? I think is right substance in many ways (though I don't agree on tariffs or immigration), but the form is certainly very different and at least somewhat off-putting.

You're right that Trump is often addressing and raising issues that need to be raised. Unfortunately he often either does it in a fashion that is counter productive, uses language that is non-nonsensical, back peddles as fast as he forward peddled, and on, and on.

I listened to the press conference that he and May had this morning. It was so sad how poorly Trump spoke and expressed his "ideas" (if you could call them that), as compared to May who did a fantastic job clearly and concisely expressing her opinions of complex problems. We live in a complex world where simple solutions are almost rarely correct, and we have a POTUS who can hardly answer pointed questions like, "how special is our relationship with the UK."

(07-13-2018 09:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments?

I don't think Trump has changed the way Washington works, which is what he ran on. He pretty much made the swamp swampier by putting his children/family in positions of power, and nominating heads of orgs, like Pruitt, that were damn near corrupt.

He's passed a tax bill, nominated 1 Justice to a stolen seat, and then another to Kennedy's - outside of that, what legislation has he helped pass?

He has gotten us into a tradewar with China and is likely about to get us in another with our allies - both of which will adversely affect rural areas disproportionately unless federal or state governments provide them with aid.

(07-13-2018 09:20 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments?

I don't think Trump has changed the way Washington works, which is what he ran on. He pretty much made the swamp swampier by putting his children/family in positions of power, and nominating heads of orgs, like Pruitt, that were damn near corrupt.

He's passed a tax bill, nominated 1 Justice to a stolen seat, and then another to Kennedy's - outside of that, what legislation has he helped pass?

He has gotten us into a tradewar with China and is likely about to get us in another with our allies - both of which will adversely affect rural areas disproportionately unless federal or state governments provide them with aid.

Maybe he ran on draining the swamp - originally a Pelosi phrase, isn't it - but the clamor from your side is that he doesn't do business as usual, but instead does it in ways different from his predecessor. Y'all need to make up your minds - more of the same, or something different? I guess you think JFK made it swampier when he nominated his brother for AG. Not exactly unprecedented. At least the Trump family is not in a cabinet post. So if precedent is what you want, we have it.

As somebody who made a career in international trade, albeit primarily with one country, I am no fan of protectionist tariffs. This is one of the promises he made that I wish he would ignore, but so far he seems focused on keeping all promises. Keeping campaign promises, is of course, bad, in the sense of business as usual in the swamp. He is keeping promises at an unprecedented rate. I don't like all the promises he is trying to keep, but I am impressed he didn't just forget them on Inauguration Day, like so many of his predecessors, and like I expected from Hillary.

I think the jury is out on the tariff war. Not so long ago the Greek chorus was bemoaning the imminent nuclear war with North Korea. Maybe this will go the same way - eventually, some progress. But right or wrong, by 2020, we will have results on both these issues, and he can run on his record or y'all can run against it.
I am sorry to make the assumption that you will automatically vote for the Democrat then. I am quite likely to vote for the Republican, whoever it is, as I cannot see a Democrat I could stomach actually winning the DNC nominatiion. Is Maxine Waters or Adam Schiff on the long list? Can't stand either one. Or has the DNC already made its selection?

Trump is something new in American politics. That seems to be the crux of what the left doesn't like about him. That and his win, of course. Despite the best efforts of the Resistance (the one Hillary joined), he is taking care of business. I think the 2020 election will turn more on how he does that than what the Mueller witch hunt comes up with.

I am going to expand a little on my answer.

It is no secret I longed for a tougher foreign policy approach than the ass-kissing (tell Vlad I can be more flexible) and empty threats (red line in Syria, get out of Crimea) approach of Obama. Time will tell if a stronger approach works better. 2020 is enough time.

(07-13-2018 09:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I guess you think JFK made it swampier when he nominated his brother for AG. Not exactly unprecedented. At least the Trump family is not in a cabinet post.

Ahh, but the Kennedys are saints. Because they were charming and had "vigah", their sins are not sins at all. It's really quite simple!

(07-13-2018 10:50 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I guess you think JFK made it swampier when he nominated his brother for AG. Not exactly unprecedented. At least the Trump family is not in a cabinet post.

Ahh, but the Kennedys are saints. Because they were charming and had "vigah", their sins are not sins at all. It's really quite simple!

Oh c'mon.

George and OO, do you really think that relying on a POTUS's actions 50+ years ago is a good leg to stand upon when trying to defend the actions of today? Sure, it shows that there once was precedent, but then nepotism laws were put in place to stop that sort of thing. OO's deflection does nothing to justify why it's OK today - all it does is to try and deflect.

A much stronger one would be pointing out the credentials and qualifications that Ivanka and Jared have that make them appropriate people to hold their jobs/titles.

(07-13-2018 09:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:20 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments?

I don't think Trump has changed the way Washington works, which is what he ran on. He pretty much made the swamp swampier by putting his children/family in positions of power, and nominating heads of orgs, like Pruitt, that were damn near corrupt.

He's passed a tax bill, nominated 1 Justice to a stolen seat, and then another to Kennedy's - outside of that, what legislation has he helped pass?

He has gotten us into a tradewar with China and is likely about to get us in another with our allies - both of which will adversely affect rural areas disproportionately unless federal or state governments provide them with aid.

Maybe he ran on draining the swamp - originally a Pelosi phrase, isn't it - but the clamor from your side is that he doesn't do business as usual, but instead does it in ways different from his predecessor. Y'all need to make up your minds - more of the same, or something different? I guess you think JFK made it swampier when he nominated his brother for AG. Not exactly unprecedented. At least the Trump family is not in a cabinet post. So if precedent is what you want, we have it.

As somebody who made a career in international trade, albeit primarily with one country, I am no fan of protectionist tariffs. This is one of the promises he made that I wish he would ignore, but so far he seems focused on keeping all promises. Keeping campaign promises, is of course, bad, in the sense of business as usual in the swamp. He is keeping promises at an unprecedented rate. I don't like all the promises he is trying to keep, but I am impressed he didn't just forget them on Inauguration Day, like so many of his predecessors, and like I expected from Hillary.

I think the jury is out on the tariff war. Not so long ago the Greek chorus was bemoaning the imminent nuclear war with North Korea. Maybe this will go the same way - eventually, some progress. But right or wrong, by 2020, we will have results on both these issues, and he can run on his record or y'all can run against it.
I am sorry to make the assumption that you will automatically vote for the Democrat then. I am quite likely to vote for the Republican, whoever it is, as I cannot see a Democrat I could stomach actually winning the DNC nominatiion. Is Maxine Waters or Adam Schiff on the long list? Can't stand either one. Or has the DNC already made its selection?

Trump is something new in American politics. That seems to be the crux of what the left doesn't like about him. That and his win, of course. Despite the best efforts of the Resistance (the one Hillary joined), he is taking care of business. I think the 2020 election will turn more on how he does that than what the Mueller witch hunt comes up with.

I'll ask again, as your response did not touch on any specifics outside of tariffs:

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments? What business is he actually taking care of?

And to tackle only one part of your interesting response, it's much more than Trump just being different that the left doesn't like - and it's rather shocking that you don't realize that his policies, his nepotism, his profiteering off the office, his laziness, and the language he uses are what the left does not like about him. It's much more than just being "different."

(07-13-2018 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And to tackle only one part of your interesting response, it's much more than Trump just being different that the left doesn't like - and it's rather shocking that you don't realize that his policies, his nepotism, his profiteering off the office, his laziness, and the language he uses are what the left does not like about him. It's much more than just being "different."

And frankly, a boorish, racist, nativist, anti-intellectual populist demagogue is nothing new in American politics. (Or politics, really.) The fact that this one won the presidency is new. And scary to more than just "the left"...

Historically the center-left, center, and center-right, and much of the full on left and right would reject someone like Trump. But in this case the right and much of the center-right seems to have jumped on the bandwagon.

(07-13-2018 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:20 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments?

I don't think Trump has changed the way Washington works, which is what he ran on. He pretty much made the swamp swampier by putting his children/family in positions of power, and nominating heads of orgs, like Pruitt, that were damn near corrupt.

He's passed a tax bill, nominated 1 Justice to a stolen seat, and then another to Kennedy's - outside of that, what legislation has he helped pass?

He has gotten us into a tradewar with China and is likely about to get us in another with our allies - both of which will adversely affect rural areas disproportionately unless federal or state governments provide them with aid.

Maybe he ran on draining the swamp - originally a Pelosi phrase, isn't it - but the clamor from your side is that he doesn't do business as usual, but instead does it in ways different from his predecessor. Y'all need to make up your minds - more of the same, or something different? I guess you think JFK made it swampier when he nominated his brother for AG. Not exactly unprecedented. At least the Trump family is not in a cabinet post. So if precedent is what you want, we have it.

As somebody who made a career in international trade, albeit primarily with one country, I am no fan of protectionist tariffs. This is one of the promises he made that I wish he would ignore, but so far he seems focused on keeping all promises. Keeping campaign promises, is of course, bad, in the sense of business as usual in the swamp. He is keeping promises at an unprecedented rate. I don't like all the promises he is trying to keep, but I am impressed he didn't just forget them on Inauguration Day, like so many of his predecessors, and like I expected from Hillary.

I think the jury is out on the tariff war. Not so long ago the Greek chorus was bemoaning the imminent nuclear war with North Korea. Maybe this will go the same way - eventually, some progress. But right or wrong, by 2020, we will have results on both these issues, and he can run on his record or y'all can run against it.
I am sorry to make the assumption that you will automatically vote for the Democrat then. I am quite likely to vote for the Republican, whoever it is, as I cannot see a Democrat I could stomach actually winning the DNC nominatiion. Is Maxine Waters or Adam Schiff on the long list? Can't stand either one. Or has the DNC already made its selection?

Trump is something new in American politics. That seems to be the crux of what the left doesn't like about him. That and his win, of course. Despite the best efforts of the Resistance (the one Hillary joined), he is taking care of business. I think the 2020 election will turn more on how he does that than what the Mueller witch hunt comes up with.

I'll ask again, as your response did not touch on any specifics outside of tariffs:

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments? What business is he actually taking care of?

And to tackle only one part of your interesting response, it's much more than Trump just being different that the left doesn't like - and it's rather shocking that you don't realize that his policies, his nepotism, his profiteering off the office, his laziness, and the language he uses are what the left does not like about him. It's much more than just being "different."

Did you lift that last paragraph verbatim from CNN or the NYT?

Nepotism - usually that refers to hiring unqualified relatives. The ones he is using are all highly capable individuals. If he put Barron on the IRS payroll for six figures, that would concern me. But nepotism is nothing new on either side of the aisle, is it?

What profiteering? Is he buying national parks for a song? Selling them?

What laziness? He seems pretty active to me. I couldn't have kept up with his schedule 20 years ago.

The language he uses sometimes is unprecedented, I agree. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. We have already had a speak-nice, do-nothing president.

As I said earlier, by 2020 we will have outcomes of a lot of things that are in the works. Whatever we have in the way in North Korea, NATO, and other foreign policy will be known. I don't understand why you need an assessment as of July 13, 2018. Are we not going to do anything else for two years? On NK, and NATO, what we have is so far, so good. Better than what we had four years ago. Where those will be two years from now, hope better still. On trade wars and tariffs we will see results for good or bad by 7-13-2020.

We will have a resolution of the immigration crisis, for better or worse. We will have the nonresults of the Mueller investigation. All this on top of the results already in, the tax bill and the justices, as you note. I meant that Trump would run on his record in 2020, not today. I think he will have plenty to point to then. How about giving it a couple of years before demanding we publish his platform.

I am not so sure he will run again. But if he does, he will point to some of the things he accomplished or tried to accomplish. Your guys will be talking about his laziness and choice of language. Bottom line, though, will be the economy.

(07-13-2018 11:57 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Did you lift that last paragraph verbatim from CNN or the NYT?

Nepotism - usually that refers to hiring unqualified relatives. The ones he is using are all highly capable individuals. If he put Barron on the IRS payroll for six figures, that would concern me. But nepotism is nothing new on either side of the aisle, is it?

He hired Ivanka and Kushner into senior roles. What are their qualifications for their roles? They have none, other than being related to Trump.

Quote:What profiteering? Is he buying national parks for a song? Selling them?

Trump is personally profiting from being POTUS, outside of his salary, because he did not divest his assets. He is forcing the government to use Trump properties (Mar-a-lago), his hotels have seen unexpected and increased attendance because of his status (see the many articles on the DC hotels), and there is evidence that his children are using their connection to dad to win business deals in foreign countries (see trade marks in China and development deal in Indonesia).

Quote:
What laziness? He seems pretty active to me. I couldn't have kept up with his schedule 20 years ago.

Trump's daily schedule is reportedly filled with downtime and numerous hours for TV watching. And he is actually fulfilling the right's nightmare scenario that they thought Obama would - playing more golf than is almost humanly possible. Trump has already played more golf than Obama did during his entire presidency.

Quote:The language he uses sometimes is unprecedented, I agree. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. We have already had a speak-nice, do-nothing president.

The type of language Trump uses IS a bad thing. It's not bad because it is "unprecedented" or "different." It's bad because it's overly simplistic, incoherent, and regularly either a lie or incredibly divisive.

Quote:As I said earlier, by 2020 we will have outcomes of a lot of things that are in the works. Whatever we have in the way in North Korea, NATO, and other foreign policy will be known. I don't understand why you need an assessment as of July 13, 2018. Are we not going to do anything else for two years? On NK, and NATO, what we have is so far, so good. Better than what we had four years ago. Where those will be two years from now, hope better still. On trade wars and tariffs we will see results for good or bad by 7-13-2020.

We will have a resolution of the immigration crisis, for better or worse. We will have the nonresults of the Mueller investigation. All this on top of the results already in, the tax bill and the justices, as you note. I meant that Trump would run on his record in 2020, not today. I think he will have plenty to point to then. How about giving it a couple of years before demanding we publish his platform.

I am not so sure he will run again. But if he does, he will point to some of the things he accomplished or tried to accomplish. Your guys will be talking about his laziness and choice of language. Bottom line, though, will be the economy.

And to your last point - you had made it sound like he had already accomplished things, so I was asking what he had accomplished. After all, you said he was getting results.

I agree that he hasn't done much yet, but that he is focusing and working on certain areas. And those are areas that are caustic, troubling, and difficult. I don't expect solutions to develop overnight, but I would hardly say he is taking care of business in these areas yet - it appears as if the NK talks have deteriorated back to baseline (they were a no show at our meeting at the DMZ), nothing substantial has been proposed on immigration that is tenable (all Trump has done is created a logistical nightmare that separated families), and so on. You're right that he'll run on his record in 2020, but let's not suggest he has been able to accomplish much with respect to keeping promises or taking care of business.

Quote:The Justice Department charged 12 Russian intelligence officers on Friday with a litany of alleged offenses related to Russia's hacking of the Democratic National Committee's emails, state election systems and other targets in 2016.

Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who announced the indictments, said the Russians involved belonged to the military intelligence service GRU. They are accused of a sustained cyberattack against Democratic party targets, including its campaign committee and Hillary Clinton's campaign.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/13/628773789...n-dnc-case

(07-13-2018 12:24 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:The Justice Department charged 12 Russian intelligence officers on Friday with a litany of alleged offenses related to Russia's hacking of the Democratic National Committee's emails, state election systems and other targets in 2016.

Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who announced the indictments, said the Russians involved belonged to the military intelligence service GRU. They are accused of a sustained cyberattack against Democratic party targets, including its campaign committee and Hillary Clinton's campaign.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/13/628773789...n-dnc-case

what does this have to do with Trump and the conspiracy theorists thoughts of collusion with Russia?

That's what I thought.

Another nothing burger. More Russians indicted who will never be brought to trial. Twenty-five down, 100,000,000 to go.

hey, I'll stipulate that the Russians tried to meddle. They bought Facebook ads for both candidates and ran most of them after the election. Apparently they are not very good at this.

YOU show me how even one vote was affected and who it was cast for, and how it changed the election. YOU show me any evidence of the noncrime of collusion. Did Trump call Vlad one day and offer him Estonia if only he would publish Donna Brazile colluding with Her Majesty to rig the primaries.

(07-13-2018 09:20 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments?

I don't think Trump has changed the way Washington works, which is what he ran on. He pretty much made the swamp swampier by putting his children/family in positions of power, and nominating heads of orgs, like Pruitt, that were damn near corrupt.

He's passed a tax bill, nominated 1 Justice to a stolen seat, and then another to Kennedy's - outside of that, what legislation has he helped pass?

He has gotten us into a tradewar with China and is likely about to get us in another with our allies - both of which will adversely affect rural areas disproportionately unless federal or state governments provide them with aid.

Again Lad, you ignore the huge foundation of Executive Power is the control, operation, scale, and direction of the administrative state. It is by far the single most important manner in which an Executive interacts with the country at large -- aside from using the military to start a war.

On that front (not the war issue) he has utterly repainted the landscape.

I dont understand why you absolutely refuse to even consider this aspect.

(07-13-2018 12:57 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:20 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.

Isn't that what your guys have been saying about Trump? Is it more thinkable about him or more unthinkable about her?

sometimes, when Trump does/says something, I am shocked and dismayed, but if I wait a little bit, results happen that I usually like.

I wanted change, real change, not a slogan like before, and we are getting a real change in many ways. Trump may be behaving unconventionally, but he is getting unconventional results. I understand some people care more about convention than results.

In 2020, you guys can vote to go back to doing the same ol' things in the same ol' ways. I think Trump, if he decides to run, can run on his record.

What change are we getting in your mind? What good record can he run on that is based on his accomplishments?

I don't think Trump has changed the way Washington works, which is what he ran on. He pretty much made the swamp swampier by putting his children/family in positions of power, and nominating heads of orgs, like Pruitt, that were damn near corrupt.

He's passed a tax bill, nominated 1 Justice to a stolen seat, and then another to Kennedy's - outside of that, what legislation has he helped pass?

He has gotten us into a tradewar with China and is likely about to get us in another with our allies - both of which will adversely affect rural areas disproportionately unless federal or state governments provide them with aid.

Again Lad, you ignore the huge foundation of Executive Power is the control, operation, scale, and direction of the administrative state. It is by far the single most important manner in which an Executive interacts with the country at large -- aside from using the military to start a war.

On that front (not the war issue) he has utterly repainted the landscape.

I dont understand why you absolutely refuse to even consider this aspect.

I don't absolutely refuse to consider it (have I said that before?). Perhaps I miss it, but I certainly am not intentionally putting my head in the sand regarding Trump's directing of the administrative state.

1) I wanted OO to provide me his thoughts on what Trump has accomplished. Why should I have to provide a list of Trump's accomplishments to someone who is touting them?

2) I was focusing more on tangible items that are more focused. The overall adjustment of the administrative state is hard to quantify, and hard to discern what Trump is directing, versus what the leaders of the agencies are directing. For example, something like implementing a no tolerance immigration policy falls in line with this thinking, but it really isn't clear if Trump was the driving force, or if it was Sessions. Same with the gutting of the CFPB - was that Trump or Mulvaney?

(07-13-2018 09:15 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:18 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Sorry, I had to pop back in for a quick question. How can any of you Trump apologists defend this trip to Europe? He's insulting our allies left and right, threatening (again) to leave NATO, blatantly lying about the outcomes of meetings, taking credit for things accomplished by his predecessors, and claiming again to be "a very stable genius". And of course claiming Merkel (who grew up in East Germany) is controlled by Russia.
Here's a description from one of the "Senior European Officials":
"Usual Trump: a stream of incoherent sentences. ... The allies looked the other way as when the old uncle gets nuts."
And then he goes to Britain and gives and interview where he criticizes May's Brexit deal, says she should have listened to him, and says Boris Johnson (who wants to topple May and become PM) would make a great Prime Minister. Whether he realizes what he is doing, I have no idea. But he literally just went to visit our closest ally and attempted to topple the government. Unprecedented doesn't capture how out of bounds this is.

Diplomacy has a certain way of being done. Trump is not a diplomat and doesn't do it that way. He does things the way he did them in business. Exaggeration and hyperbole are the land developer's stock in trade. More than anything else, he reminds me of the Rodney Dangerfield character in Caddyshack.

Will it work? Who knows? It's very high risk, which is why I did not vote for Trump. I saw him as the high risk, high reward candidate and Hillary as more the status quo. I thought the best Trump could be was better than the best Hillary could be, but that the worst he could be was worse than the worst she could be. I did not like where we were, but his beta was just a bit too high for me.

So far it's been some good, some bad, net/net probably not a whole lot better or worse than Hillary, just different goods and bads.

I do think the issues he is raising need to be raised. We really can't continue to bear the cost of being the world's policeman--in dollars, or in lives and limbs, or in the number of people it pisses off. Nor do we have as great a need as when we hatched this system to win the Cold War. But the reality is that somebody has to do it. The world is still a bad place, and some parts of it are very bad. We certainly can, and should, bear a large part of the load. But who picks up the slack and does the rest? Will that be NATO? The British Commonwealth? Japan and Korea? China? Russia? I like some of those answers better than others.

Part of the problem is that the issues Trump is raising should have been raised and resolved 25-30 years ago, when the fall of the Iron Curtain brought the Cold War to its end. We won because our economy ultimately far outperformed the USSR's, not because we won military battles. Ross Perot said what I had been thinking when he said that in the post-Cold War era, economic power will be more important than military power. We need to make that shift in gears.

We need to have the strongest military in the world, by leaps and bounds, but never to use it because nobody dares pick on us and we don't go picking on them. And we need economic, tax, regulatory, education, and infrastructure policies that enhance our ability to compete in the global market. That hasn't been our approach, because we are in many ways still fighting the Cold War. Trump is changing that. For better or worse? Who knows? I think is right substance in many ways (though I don't agree on tariffs or immigration), but the form is certainly very different and at least somewhat off-putting.

You're right that Trump is often addressing and raising issues that need to be raised. Unfortunately he often either does it in a fashion that is counter productive, uses language that is non-nonsensical, back peddles as fast as he forward peddled, and on, and on.

I listened to the press conference that he and May had this morning. It was so sad how poorly Trump spoke and expressed his "ideas" (if you could call them that), as compared to May who did a fantastic job clearly and concisely expressing her opinions of complex problems. We live in a complex world where simple solutions are almost rarely correct, and we have a POTUS who can hardly answer pointed questions like, "how special is our relationship with the UK."

Have to agree with you on the Lad. I also watched the press conference. When you excise the "I am great", the "we are doing the best things ever" type lines you could condense Trump's comments into one single spaced 12 point font typed page.

It was almost as painful to watch as the amateur improv troupe we went to see last night.

And utter cringe at him leaping to talk about Boris.

(07-13-2018 01:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Have to agree with you on the Lad. I also watched the press conference. When you excise the "I am great", the "we are doing the best things ever" type lines you could condense Trump's comments into one single spaced 12 point font typed page.
It was almost as painful to watch as the amateur improv troupe we went to see last night.
And utter cringe at him leaping to talk about Boris.

The whole Boris thing is really weird. I'm not sure what the objective is there. Or even if there is any objective at all.

(07-13-2018 02:35 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 01:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Have to agree with you on the Lad. I also watched the press conference. When you excise the "I am great", the "we are doing the best things ever" type lines you could condense Trump's comments into one single spaced 12 point font typed page.
It was almost as painful to watch as the amateur improv troupe we went to see last night.
And utter cringe at him leaping to talk about Boris.

The whole Boris thing is really weird. I'm not sure what the objective is there. Or even if there is any objective at all.

I'm going to add that to the growing list of weird things.

The other instance that stood out to me was the Fox News reporter that pressed Trump on Crimea. He kept asking how Russia's continued presence there could, or would, affect our relationship with Russia. Trump was rather cagey and either kept referring back to the fact that Putin annexed Crimea under Obama's watch (which the reporter followed up on a few times because it was an obvious deflection) or that he, and I quote:

Quote:If I knew, I wouldn’t tell you, because it would put us at a disadvantage.

(07-13-2018 11:51 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  And frankly, a boorish, racist, nativist, anti-intellectual populist demagogue is

Aside from the 'populist' moniker, isnt this just the standard Democratic campaign platform/slogan for the last 38 years?