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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1381
RE: Trump Administration
(07-08-2017 06:31 AM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  You're right. I guess I don't know. I'll adjust my sentiment:

Of course, if they can't follow simple directions on a form [], maybe we don't want them serving in such a high position?

And of course, if they can't follow a simple form agreement, maybe we don't want them serving in high positions as well.

Offhand, things like Agreements on Handling Classified Information, and.... how about Agreements on Not Retaining Confidential Information after leaving. How does that sound?
07-08-2017 04:39 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1382
RE: Trump Administration
(07-08-2017 04:39 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 06:31 AM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  You're right. I guess I don't know. I'll adjust my sentiment:

Of course, if they can't follow simple directions on a form [], maybe we don't want them serving in such a high position?

And of course, if they can't follow a simple form agreement, maybe we don't want them serving in high positions as well.

Offhand, things like Agreements on Handling Classified Information, and.... how about Agreements on Not Retaining Confidential Information after leaving. How does that sound?

While you're point is understood about Clinton, how does that excuse or justify the same issue on Team Trump?

To me, there is no point in pivoting to Clinton because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. All it does is point at that the other guys did it too which doesn't really fly.
07-08-2017 04:57 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1383
RE: Trump Administration
Doesnt 'justify' anything nor is it intended to. Just pointing out the supposedly one way sharp comment runs both ways.

As for Handling Classified Information, I doubt seriously that Team Trump is leaking like a sieve these days to the 'Resistance', so the topic of handling that information, with all due respect, *is* still on the table and part and parcel of the ongoing 'collusion brouhaha'.

My apologies that the poster child for both setting the collusion smoke (per my post interaction with you in the last couple of days re: Team Clinton and the 'reason' for the loss) *and* an utter inability to handle classified information is one and the same. Happy coincidence I guess.... 03-wink
07-08-2017 05:37 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1384
RE: Trump Administration
Anyone have thoughts on Invanka sitting in for Trump at a meeting at G20? Seems to me like there are better, more qualified representatives in the government for that like SoS or VP.
07-08-2017 06:55 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1385
RE: Trump Administration
(07-08-2017 06:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Anyone have thoughts on Invanka sitting in for Trump at a meeting at G20? Seems to me like there are better, more qualified representatives in the government for that like SoS or VP.

Angela Merkel said it was no big deal, that everybody does it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/341129-...20-meeting

Just more smoke being blown by the Resistance.
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 07:34 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-08-2017 07:28 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1386
RE: Trump Administration
(07-08-2017 07:28 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 06:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Anyone have thoughts on Invanka sitting in for Trump at a meeting at G20? Seems to me like there are better, more qualified representatives in the government for that like SoS or VP.

Angela Merkel said it was no big deal, that everybody does it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/341129-...20-meeting

Just more smoke being blown by the Resistance.

So any criticisms of 45 you don't agree with are now smoke?

I think this situation falls into a different category from what you have previously called smoke. Would criticisixing Trump for having Ivanka be an advisor be smoke as well?
07-08-2017 10:14 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1387
RE: Trump Administration
(07-08-2017 10:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 07:28 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 06:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Anyone have thoughts on Invanka sitting in for Trump at a meeting at G20? Seems to me like there are better, more qualified representatives in the government for that like SoS or VP.

Angela Merkel said it was no big deal, that everybody does it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/341129-...20-meeting

Just more smoke being blown by the Resistance.

So any criticisms of 45 you don't agree with are now smoke?

I think this situation falls into a different category from what you have previously called smoke. Would criticisixing Trump for having Ivanka be an advisor be smoke as well?

yes. But if you prefer, we can reserve "smoke" for the efforts to impugn him by alleging Russian collusion and refer to the attempts to impugn him in all the other ways as "hullabaloo".

I remember the hullabaloo when JFK put his brother in the Cabinet, and the Hullabaloo when Carter brought his Georgia Mafia to D.C. Nothing new about the loyal opposition not liking the new President's choices. I didn't like Valerie Jarrett very much.

She has proved herself for years. She not just another pretty face. Truth be told, I think we would all be better off if she were the President and he was running his business. Judge her on her merits, not her DNA. At least she doesn't tweet much.
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 11:01 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-08-2017 10:58 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1388
RE: Trump Administration
Both the Russian collusion allegations (smoke) and all the other complaints (hullabaloo) are just parts of the overall campaign to demean and belittle Trump, to emphasize that he is unfit, unprepared, uncouth, and most of all, not a legitimate President. If he stands in the center of a picture, complaints. If he stands at the edge, complaints. If he shakes a hand, there is criticism of of who and how. He could save an orphan from drowning, and there would be criticism. It is all out war, and the objective is retake the House, the Senate, and the White House. There is a reason Hillary called it the Resistance.

Much easier with the aid of the MSM. I was watching MSNBC yesterday (believe it or not) and one of the the guests said we may be stuck with him Until 2024. The anchor just repeated "2024" in a tone of amazement and a roll of the eyes. Nice unspoken message.
07-09-2017 10:03 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1389
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 10:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Both the Russian collusion allegations (smoke) and all the other complaints (hullabaloo) are just parts of the overall campaign to demean and belittle Trump, to emphasize that he is unfit, unprepared, uncouth, and most of all, not a legitimate President. If he stands in the center of a picture, complaints. If he stands at the edge, complaints. If he shakes a hand, there is criticism of of who and how. He could save an orphan from drowning, and there would be criticism. It is all out war, and the objective is retake the House, the Senate, and the White House. There is a reason Hillary called it the Resistance.

Much easier with the aid of the MSM. I was watching MSNBC yesterday (believe it or not) and one of the the guests said we may be stuck with him Until 2024. The anchor just repeated "2024" in a tone of amazement and a roll of the eyes. Nice unspoken message.

To be fair, the hand shake criticisms stopped once he stopped trying to tug the person he was shaking hands with into another century...

Trump is a completely unorthodox POTUS so yeah, expect a lot of criticism because over half of the people who voted for Hillary likely did so, in part, because they did not want Trump's kind of unorthodox-ness in the White House. I mean, when was the last time you saw a POTUS push another world leader out of the way in a very public setting?

You can try and poo-poo all criticisms as being part of some vast conspiracy to try and retake the branches of the government, but is more than that. Yes, there is a concerted effort by Dems to try and turn the House (and maybe even the Senate) in 2018, but why wouldn't there be? Trump is singling out and rolling back a significant amount of legislation that Dems fought for, so why wouldn't they try and resist and fight back? Unfortunately, as 2010 showed, it's much easier to mobilize voters to vote against something, as opposed to for it.

Some of (or a lot of) the criticisms, though, are warranted and valid. A lot of Americans don't agree with how Trump is not only handling foreign policy (by pushing us towards isolation via America first rhetoric and policy) but also how he is handling foreign diplomats (see any number of stories where he has inserted foot into mouth).

In the same vein, would it be fair to completely reduce criticisms of Obama's foreign policy approach to Syria as just the Reps wanting to remove him from office? I think there were plenty of Obama criticisms that fit the bill of being hullabaloo or smoke (hhelllloooooo birther), but there were plenty that were legitimate. Giving legitimacy to and disagreeing with criticisms are different than saying they aren't legitimate. And at the moment, it sounds like you're suggesting none of these criticisms are legitimate.
07-09-2017 10:40 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1390
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 10:40 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 10:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Both the Russian collusion allegations (smoke) and all the other complaints (hullabaloo) are just parts of the overall campaign to demean and belittle Trump, to emphasize that he is unfit, unprepared, uncouth, and most of all, not a legitimate President. If he stands in the center of a picture, complaints. If he stands at the edge, complaints. If he shakes a hand, there is criticism of of who and how. He could save an orphan from drowning, and there would be criticism. It is all out war, and the objective is retake the House, the Senate, and the White House. There is a reason Hillary called it the Resistance.

Much easier with the aid of the MSM. I was watching MSNBC yesterday (believe it or not) and one of the the guests said we may be stuck with him Until 2024. The anchor just repeated "2024" in a tone of amazement and a roll of the eyes. Nice unspoken message.

To be fair, the hand shake criticisms stopped once he stopped trying to tug the person he was shaking hands with into another century...

Trump is a completely unorthodox POTUS so yeah, expect a lot of criticism because over half of the people who voted for Hillary likely did so, in part, because they did not want Trump's kind of unorthodox-ness in the White House. I mean, when was the last time you saw a POTUS push another world leader out of the way in a very public setting?

You can try and poo-poo all criticisms as being part of some vast conspiracy to try and retake the branches of the government, but is more than that. Yes, there is a concerted effort by Dems to try and turn the House (and maybe even the Senate) in 2018, but why wouldn't there be? Trump is singling out and rolling back a significant amount of legislation that Dems fought for, so why wouldn't they try and resist and fight back? Unfortunately, as 2010 showed, it's much easier to mobilize voters to vote against something, as opposed to for it.

Some of (or a lot of) the criticisms, though, are warranted and valid. A lot of Americans don't agree with how Trump is not only handling foreign policy (by pushing us towards isolation via America first rhetoric and policy) but also how he is handling foreign diplomats (see any number of stories where he has inserted foot into mouth).

In the same vein, would it be fair to completely reduce criticisms of Obama's foreign policy approach to Syria as just the Reps wanting to remove him from office? I think there were plenty of Obama criticisms that fit the bill of being hullabaloo or smoke (hhelllloooooo birther), but there were plenty that were legitimate. Giving legitimacy to and disagreeing with criticisms are different than saying they aren't legitimate. And at the moment, it sounds like you're suggesting none of these criticisms are legitimate.

I think the Democrat team is primed now to find fault with anything and everything. And they do. I asked once for a list of things you thought Trump had done right. Apparently shaking hands or jockeying for position are not among them. They took another picture two days ago. Trump was on the outer edge. Maybe he learned?

It's not strange thanDems want to take back power. What is strange is the extremes they will go to in order to demonize Trump. It semis to be an article of faith that nothing's mg Trump does is right, and then proof is observed in every little,thing. Reminds me of the Monty Python witch hunt skit.

A lot of American agree with his foreign policy moves so far, including me. I was not at all happy with Obama's matador policy - get out of the way with a flourish - and felt that we had lost credibility in the world, a loss we are having to deal with now with Russia, North Korea, and the Middle East. Putin took Obama's measure and knew he could manipulate him. I hope he is realizing this is a horse of a different color. All of Trump's move so far are anti-Russian, all of Obama's up to December 2016 were pro-Russian, and yet the story is that Trump is the Russian patsy?

I, along with million of Americans, want to see us reclaim our place in the world. Yes, it runs some risks, risks that Obama avoided by backing off. I guess we can't have everything. I presume you are good with a more passive approach? something like telling Putin to "cut it out" . Ooh, that has teeth. Sounds like something one would say to a puppy piddling on the rug. I bet Putin hurried to comply.

I think if we just replace "unpresidential" with un-Obamalike" all will become clear. I for one think we need a stronger presence.

I don't agree with much of the Trump agenda. Other than the Wall, with Mexico, so,far I have no complaints on foreign policy. Glad to see somebody stand up. I think the constant nitpicking and damned if he does, damned if he doesn't atmosphere is way beyond what we ever saw with any, yes any, previous president. Good question is why? What do you think is the reason?
07-09-2017 12:19 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1391
RE: Trump Administration
First, I'll agree that the Dems are primed to find fault with anything, but that is nothing new for the party that is not in power. The minority party looks for leverage - the question just becomes how low they'll stoop to get it.

But OO, is your stance that all criticisms of Trump are either stooping too low or demonizing him? Because the crux of my comment was that a lot of the criticisms are fair and valid because people have different opinions. As you said, some people like how he is handling foreign policy, but plenty don't. And those that don't are not demonizing him for no reason - they have valid disagreements with how he is handling our foreign policy, just as you had valid disagreements with Obama's.

I find it very interesting that it appears that we have two very different views of what reality is with Trump's foreign policy approach and the effect it is having on the world stage. We literally see polar opposite outcomes. In my eyes Trump is accelerating us backwards in the west, removing us from leadership positions across the board and allowing China, Europe, and Russia to come forward. While Obama did lead from behind in the Middle East and was not aggressive via the military, the US was one of the leading voices on trade, human rights, the environment, etc, etc. (and as I said, your criticism of Obama's decision to avoid using military force is valid).

Have you seen this opinion by this Australian journalist? My sentiments are not unique. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017...-after-g20

Also, what moves has Trump made that are anti-Russian? I think you're way overstating that. One could maybe argue the Syrian strike, but we actually gave Russia a heads up before we struck. However, I don't think Trump has actually done anything that has been pro-Russia, there have just been reports circulating that he has wanted to - but wanting to and acting are very different things.
07-09-2017 12:39 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1392
RE: Trump Administration
Ypu might not have heard about this on CNN

" But in Thursday’s remarks, Trump reserved his most pointed criticism for Russia: He condemned its actions in Ukraine, which is a major concern for Poland and other Eastern and Central European nations that are wary of Moscow’s attempt to reassert its dominance in its historic sphere of influence, as well its support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in that country’s civil war, and he urged Russia to “join the community of responsible nations in our fight against common enemies and in defense of civilization itself.”

Somewhat stronger than "Tell Vladimir I can be more flexible after the election". Which do you prefer?

No sanctions have been eased despite the continuing innuendo that easing sanctions was the quid pro quo offered in return for Russia stealing and having published the truth. If there was collusion, what has Trump paid off with?

Regulations are being eased on oil and gas production, which threatens
Russia's primary source of income.

You mentioned the tomahawks in Syria, which signaled that we are no longer bending over backward to avoid stepping on Russia's toes.

Yes, we need to work with russia on a lot of things - as equals or from a position of strength, neither of which was displayed by Obama. I am happy to see the occupant of the WH standing up to Russia and others, representing the interests of the US. We didn't see that under Obama and I expected not to see it under Hillary.

But foreign policy is only one thing, and the Democrats are against everything. And in many cases, it doesn't matter what he does, they are against it. It is not a response designed to help the country - it is a response designed to help the party.

A good example is the current furor over what exactly was said to Putin about election hacking in that two hour meeting. Apparently it was more than "Cut it out", but we don't know for sure. and since we don't know for sure, the commentary is that "probably" Trump didn't push it, and/or that "probably" he accepted Putin's denials. It doesn't matter, since whatever was said is going to be labeled either wrong or not enough, we know that. I gleaned this from listening to ABC and CNN this morning. Always, buried deep in the commentary, is a disclaimer. Sort of like, "We don't know that Mr. Jones is having an affair with Mrs. Smith, but it is reported that his son talked to a girl who is a friend of the Smith's daughter, so it seems suspicious. But there is no evidence of the reported affair. Yet." (BTW, that is "smoke")

I'll just say it again. I didn't vote for him. I liked several others much more. I like some of the things he is doing. Others I do not. I do not consider his behavior a role model. But it is plain that the left is united in attacking him on all fronts, for every thing, and using innuendo freely to do so. Some of those attacks are unfair. The ones that are fair do not excuse the unfair ones.

I would like to see the two sides working at least for the good of the country. But it cannot happen while the left is at war with him.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 02:10 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-09-2017 02:06 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1393
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 02:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Ypu might not have heard about this on CNN

" But in Thursday’s remarks, Trump reserved his most pointed criticism for Russia: He condemned its actions in Ukraine, which is a major concern for Poland and other Eastern and Central European nations that are wary of Moscow’s attempt to reassert its dominance in its historic sphere of influence, as well its support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in that country’s civil war, and he urged Russia to “join the community of responsible nations in our fight against common enemies and in defense of civilization itself.”

Somewhat stronger than "Tell Vladimir I can be more flexible after the election". Which do you prefer?

No sanctions have been eased despite the continuing innuendo that easing sanctions was the quid pro quo offered in return for Russia stealing and having published the truth. If there was collusion, what has Trump paid off with?

Regulations are being eased on oil and gas production, which threatens
Russia's primary source of income.

You mentioned the tomahawks in Syria, which signaled that we are no longer bending over backward to avoid stepping on Russia's toes.

Yes, we need to work with russia on a lot of things - as equals or from a position of strength, neither of which was displayed by Obama. I am happy to see the occupant of the WH standing up to Russia and others, representing the interests of the US. We didn't see that under Obama and I expected not to see it under Hillary.

But foreign policy is only one thing, and the Democrats are against everything. And in many cases, it doesn't matter what he does, they are against it. It is not a response designed to help the country - it is a response designed to help the party.

A good example is the current furor over what exactly was said to Putin in that two hour meeting about election hacking. Apparently it was more than "Cut it out", but we don't know for sure. and since we don't know for sure, the commentary is that "probably" Trump didn't push it, and/or that "probably" he accepted Putin's denials. It doesn't matter, since whatever was said is either wrong or not enough, we know that. I gleaned this from listening to ABC and CNN this morning. always, buried deep in the commentary, is a disclaimer. Sort of like, "We don't know that Mr. Jones is having an affair with Mrs. Smith, but it is reported that his son talked to a girl who is a friend of the Smith's daughter, so it seems suspicious. But there is no evidence of the reported affair." (BTW, that is "smoke")

I'll just say it again. I didn't vote for him. I liked several others much more. I like some of the things he is doing. Others I do not. I do not consider his behavior a role model. But it is plain that the left is united in attacking him on all fronts, for every thing, and using innuendo freely to do so. Some of those attacks are unfair. The ones that are fair do not excuse the unfair ones.

I would like to see the two sides working at least for the good of the country. But it cannot happen while the left is at war with him.

We do know they didn't discuss sanctions and that they discussed creating a joint task force for cyber security (cue fox guarding the hen house). Trump said as much.

And the Dems so far are against non-foreign policy items that go against the Democrat ethos and agenda - it just so happens that Trump is pushing all of those buttons at the moment on big ticket items. Sorry, but you won't see the Dems as a whole back down on fighting cuts to public education, abortion restriction, reduction of climate change research/green energy investment, tax cuts for the wealthy, cuts in Medicaid and Medicare, and so on.

Now, if Trump put forth an infrastructure spending bill that didn't tie in items that are unpalatable to the left, and they still did not support it, then I'd be more on board with your assessment. But right now you're complaining about Dems opposing actions that generally go against what they stand for...

Also, you don't hear a lot about the bipartisan items because they generally aren't as sexy from a news perspective. For example, Dems and Reps passed a bill aimed to help improve weather forecasting. Trump signed that into law. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capi...2ed8e5852d

IMO, you're being just as bad as those you're railing against by claiming that the other side is against EVERYTHING Trump is doing. You're not looking closely at what Trump is doing and how Dems actually feel about those topics and issues - and that perhaps on policy they actually disagree with the policy.

And to the Russia, you still have not pointed out any actions Trump has taken that were hard on Russia. You brought up what was said by Trump, cherry-picked one line from Obama's presidency before Russia became the threat it is today (remember, Obama still felt that Russia was not our biggest threat in 2012 - that turned out to be false), and you're absolutely delusional if you think Hillary would have been nicer to Russia than Trump. LITERALLY the main driving factor for Putin interfering with our elections was because of how harshly Clinton condemned Putin and his actions. Plus, the whole reason Obama didn't react against Russian meddling was in part because he assumed Hillary would be in office and take action. What logical reason makes you think she would have been nice?
07-09-2017 02:24 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1394
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 12:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  , the US was one of the leading voices on trade, human rights, the environment

If that is what moves the United States 'forward' then Jimmy Carter should be regarded as the 'bestest' US President evah....

Quote:Also, what moves has Trump made that are anti-Russian? I think you're way overstating that. One could maybe argue the Syrian strike, but we actually gave Russia a heads up before we struck. However, I don't think Trump has actually done anything that has been pro-Russia, there have just been reports circulating that he has wanted to - but wanting to and acting are very different things.

Considering that the previous administration simply allowed blatant Russian military aggression and expansion into (and reoccupation of) Sevastopol (and the rest of Crimea), and followed it up with an effective blind eye of the same to the majority of the eastern portion of Ukraine (albeit 'not' with actual Russian troops (hah hah)), there isn't much of a bar to be labeled as anti-Russia.

The US presence in Syria is a massive finger poke there as well; since Obama's red line was more of a 'translucent nascent line' Russia moved swiftly to fill the void there. The re-engagement of not just indirect US power but of direct planes in the sky *and* boots on the ground is directly contrary to Russian interests there.

Have to disagree with you. Both the tone and direct actions contrary to Russia's position has decidedly been changed since President 'More Flexible'.
07-09-2017 02:35 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1395
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 02:35 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 12:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  , the US was one of the leading voices on trade, human rights, the environment

If that is what moves the United States 'forward' then Jimmy Carter should be regarded as the 'bestest' US President evah....

Quote:Also, what moves has Trump made that are anti-Russian? I think you're way overstating that. One could maybe argue the Syrian strike, but we actually gave Russia a heads up before we struck. However, I don't think Trump has actually done anything that has been pro-Russia, there have just been reports circulating that he has wanted to - but wanting to and acting are very different things.

Considering that the previous administration simply allowed blatant Russian military aggression and expansion into (and reoccupation of) Sevastopol (and the rest of Crimea), and followed it up with an effective blind eye of the same to the majority of the eastern portion of Ukraine (albeit 'not' with actual Russian troops (hah hah)), there isn't much of a bar to be labeled as anti-Russia.

The US presence in Syria is a massive finger poke there as well; since Obama's red line was more of a 'translucent nascent line' Russia moved swiftly to fill the void there. The re-engagement of not just indirect US power but of direct planes in the sky *and* boots on the ground is directly contrary to Russian interests there.

Have to disagree with you. Both the tone and direct actions contrary to Russia's position has decidedly been changed since President 'More Flexible'.

I don't really disagree with your assessments of Obama's initial handling of Russia and then Syria and the red line, but are you confusing Obama's initial actions with what happened prior to him leaving office? It seems like you're saying that Obama did not ever send troops to Syria and that only now Trump did.

Obama sent troops to Syria - when he left office there were ~500 there (http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-po...-at-war/). Trump has so far sent a similar amount, but has talked about increasing that number.

Remember too that Obama did ask for approval to strike Syria, but following the fact that the bill was never voted on, Obama went the diplomatic route instead. And likely the only reason that resolution did not see a vote was because Reps were strongly against it.

And to your comment about tone - completely false that it has changed. Obama was NOT friendly towards Russia by the end of his term. He, just like Bush before him, thought that he could play nice in the sandbox with Putin, so he tried. When he found out he couldn't, things changed quickly. A lot changed between 2012 and 2016 with regards to that relationship, so its odd that everyone keeps trying to subtly suggest it did not.
07-09-2017 04:01 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1396
RE: Trump Administration
On your bolded portion: while Obama might have had boots on the ground, and/or planes in the sky, were they *ever* used against a Russian proxy?

The answer is no. Even when chemical agents were employed in 2013 in Ghouta.

The answer is yes now.

Obama's big problem was that the Russians (correctly) assessed their proxies could 'light it up' under Obama, and Obama, while he might whine a little bit, would *never* undertake counteraction.

At the same time Obama had broadly called a "red line", which, in the course of things, was a bonus two-fer for Vlad and pals. Not only could Russian influence increase, the 'red line' false bravado amde Obama look that much more a chump and ineffectual.

The methodology post-Obama has been a huge reversal in stance. Yep, Trump told Vlad and pals the bombing was going to take place. And that ended up being a two-fer (no, a three-fer) for us. Not only did perform that action, we were pretty much lauded for it because it was striking back at what is a pretty crappy thing -- a government using WMD against its own people. And, we had the balls to tell the Russians *exactly* what we were going to do and pretty much their hands were tied to do anything about it. 1) great act in support of what everybody says is a decent thing; 2) the act itself diminished Russian influence and gravitas; and 3) we told them it was coming, which boxed the Russians into not just not doing anything, but communicated to the world that they werent prepared to do anything about it, even for their new proxy buddy Assad the junior.

Kind of like the crappy couple at a bar when the chick ends up being a d--che to someone she really shouldn't. So the person fed up with her antics slaps her (and the bar cheers). Then it turns out the guy who slapped her told her d--chy date he was going to do that. And the d--chy date doesnt do anything.

Sorry, that was a three-fer.

Massive turn around in Middle East direction; at the expense of Russia.

The long and short of it is that Obama signaled to Vlad at the outset he was a cuckold. And he was treated as such through his terms, notwithstanding what he might have said or changed how he said it during his terms in office.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 05:22 PM by tanqtonic.)
07-09-2017 05:21 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1397
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 04:01 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And to your comment about tone - completely false that it has changed. Obama was NOT friendly towards Russia by the end of his term.

Imposing sanctions in December 2016 was the first thing I can remember he did that Vlad might not like. Were there others?

I have always thought the sanctions were as much about indicting Trump as a collusionist as about punishing Vlad. Remember the timing.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli.../95958472/

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/29/politics/r...index.html
07-09-2017 06:55 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1398
RE: Trump Administration
On the wider topic of foreign affairs (not just with Russia), I think Obama missed a bet when he decided to sit idly by while Iranians were protesting. Maybe a little more encouragement, the regime topples. But instead, a few years later, we sign the most lopsided deal since the Dutch bought Manhattan*, and give them the bomb. We also spent eight more years doing nothing about North Korea. I don't think the world we are going to bequeath to your children and my great-grandchildren, with a nuclear Iran and a nuclear North Korea is going to be better or safer in any way thanks to Obama's foreign policy.

Obama reminds me of this man:

Peace for our time

* Manhattan is historically documented to have been purchased by Dutch colonists from Native Americans in 1626 for 60 guilders, which equals US$1050 today.
07-09-2017 08:50 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1399
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 08:50 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  On the wider topic of foreign affairs (not just with Russia), I think Obama missed a bet when he decided to sit idly by while Iranians were protesting. Maybe a little more encouragement, the regime topples. But instead, a few years later, we sign the most lopsided deal since the Dutch bought Manhattan*, and give them the bomb. We also spent eight more years doing nothing about North Korea. I don't think the world we are going to bequeath to your children and my great-grandchildren, with a nuclear Iran and a nuclear North Korea is going to be better or safer in any way thanks to Obama's foreign policy.

Obama reminds me of this man:

Peace for our time

* Manhattan is historically documented to have been purchased by Dutch colonists from Native Americans in 1626 for 60 guilders, which equals US$1050 today.

Obama was voted in on a wave of anti-war sentiment. The electorate was dissatisfied with our decisions in Afghanistan and especially Iraq, so it's no surprise Obama did not use military force when not directly provoked - that's kind of what the majority of voted for.
07-09-2017 09:18 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1400
RE: Trump Administration
(07-09-2017 08:50 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  On the wider topic of foreign affairs (not just with Russia), I think Obama missed a bet when he decided to sit idly by while Iranians were protesting. Maybe a little more encouragement, the regime topples. But instead, a few years later, we sign the most lopsided deal since the Dutch bought Manhattan*, and give them the bomb. We also spent eight more years doing nothing about North Korea. I don't think the world we are going to bequeath to your children and my great-grandchildren, with a nuclear Iran and a nuclear North Korea is going to be better or safer in any way thanks to Obama's foreign policy.

Obama reminds me of this man:

Peace for our time

* Manhattan is historically documented to have been purchased by Dutch colonists from Native Americans in 1626 for 60 guilders, which equals US$1050 today.


You forget the Arab Spring and how that got pissed away. And, hate to say it, you had Benghazi. Of course, though, that was provoked by an internet movie.....
07-09-2017 09:26 PM
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