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We have a talent gap that can only be overcome through hard work & commitment. My fear isn't that our best recruits aren't living up to their rankings on Saturdays. It's that they're getting out-worked in the offseason. This is likely why we have so many walk-ons/FCS recruits in prominent roles. The huge red flag for the season was the abnormally large list of players that had to sit out Spring practice due to not meeting their conditioning goals. If your going to train like a turd, you're going to play like one. So the question is, how many of our key players missed weeks of Spring practice? If I were the coach, I'd publish the list this year. Make their work ethic available for all to see... I guess the bottom line is, we can't expect to beat anyone reputable with this type of commitment. But who does that fall on, coaches or players?

Why does it have to be one or the other? We're dealing with 17-21 year olds. some need guidance, some need a kick in the pants, some need coddling, some don't need anything. Coaches/strength coaches, etc. need to know who's who and adjust

(10-24-2016 02:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 12:13 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 11:27 AM)BigBlue23 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 11:22 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Call me crazy, as I know you will, but I don't think defense was the biggest issue Saturday. You cannot go three and out for the first 3 possessions against a team like that. After three possessions, we were down 21-0, my expectation would have been to give up 14 to them on those three possessions and to score 1 or 2 times ourselves, but the total lack of ability to do anything against a team that gives up a ton of points, just put everyone into a panicked overwhelmed state that snowballed to a completely embarrassing first half. To me it was far more frustrating that we couldn't move the ball against a team that gives up a ton of points, than it was that we couldn't stop a team that is rarely stopped at all.

I am actually with you. I am baffled that we can't generate offense against mid major talent. NC State is one thing, but to look this anemic against WKU and Ap. State bothers me more than the defense.

Our QB and top receiver are both FCS recruits. Our backup QB is a walk on who beat out a highly touted recruit. This all tells me that we simply aren't recruiting. And we MUST get better. Whether it is BW or someone else, continual bottom of the conference recruiting classes can't continue.

We should have moved better on the WKU defense, but the matchups were really bad, and once again it all starts with the offensive line.
Our running game has excelled more or less because Lawry and Cox have made a lot of yards on their own. The WKU DLine and LBs did not allow that to happen within the confines of their normal 4-3.

Without having to adjust at all to our running game, their defense was able to concentrate on our passing game. The penetration of the WKU defensive line gave us fits, w/o the need for blitzing. This caused tremendous pressure on DW both with running for his life and having open receivers.
The WKU DBs were fast and prevented a lot of passes that we might otherwise get, and their DBs were fast enough to keep what passes we made from going for yds after the catch, normally a staple of our offense.

We were never going to stop WKU, only #1 Alabama has really done that, but with better OLine play, we might have made it very competitive.
I don't believe that our Oline is any better than last season, if as good.

I honestly think it was far simpler than that. We don't stretch the field, we didn't stretch the field, and we played right into the strengths of their defense. As soon as we started to throw the ball down field, their defense didn't look so daunting.

That is an intriguing point. Additionally, as we discussed a few weeks ago, it seems that when we go up tempo it often confuses and stresses a defense. I don't remember doing that in the WKU game.
Perhaps that is also an adjustment we needed to try.

(10-24-2016 07:52 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 02:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 12:13 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 11:27 AM)BigBlue23 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 11:22 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Call me crazy, as I know you will, but I don't think defense was the biggest issue Saturday. You cannot go three and out for the first 3 possessions against a team like that. After three possessions, we were down 21-0, my expectation would have been to give up 14 to them on those three possessions and to score 1 or 2 times ourselves, but the total lack of ability to do anything against a team that gives up a ton of points, just put everyone into a panicked overwhelmed state that snowballed to a completely embarrassing first half. To me it was far more frustrating that we couldn't move the ball against a team that gives up a ton of points, than it was that we couldn't stop a team that is rarely stopped at all.

I am actually with you. I am baffled that we can't generate offense against mid major talent. NC State is one thing, but to look this anemic against WKU and Ap. State bothers me more than the defense.

Our QB and top receiver are both FCS recruits. Our backup QB is a walk on who beat out a highly touted recruit. This all tells me that we simply aren't recruiting. And we MUST get better. Whether it is BW or someone else, continual bottom of the conference recruiting classes can't continue.

We should have moved better on the WKU defense, but the matchups were really bad, and once again it all starts with the offensive line.
Our running game has excelled more or less because Lawry and Cox have made a lot of yards on their own. The WKU DLine and LBs did not allow that to happen within the confines of their normal 4-3.

Without having to adjust at all to our running game, their defense was able to concentrate on our passing game. The penetration of the WKU defensive line gave us fits, w/o the need for blitzing. This caused tremendous pressure on DW both with running for his life and having open receivers.
The WKU DBs were fast and prevented a lot of passes that we might otherwise get, and their DBs were fast enough to keep what passes we made from going for yds after the catch, normally a staple of our offense.

We were never going to stop WKU, only #1 Alabama has really done that, but with better OLine play, we might have made it very competitive.
I don't believe that our Oline is any better than last season, if as good.

I honestly think it was far simpler than that. We don't stretch the field, we didn't stretch the field, and we played right into the strengths of their defense. As soon as we started to throw the ball down field, their defense didn't look so daunting.

That is an intriguing point. Additionally, as we discussed a few weeks ago, it seems that when we go up tempo it often confuses and stresses a defense. I don't remember doing that in the WKU game.
Perhaps that is also an adjustment we needed to try.

You can't stretch the field when your QB doesn't have time to throw. We should have been running draws and sweeps.

(10-24-2016 08:14 PM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 07:52 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 02:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 12:13 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 11:27 AM)BigBlue23 Wrote:  I am actually with you. I am baffled that we can't generate offense against mid major talent. NC State is one thing, but to look this anemic against WKU and Ap. State bothers me more than the defense.

Our QB and top receiver are both FCS recruits. Our backup QB is a walk on who beat out a highly touted recruit. This all tells me that we simply aren't recruiting. And we MUST get better. Whether it is BW or someone else, continual bottom of the conference recruiting classes can't continue.

We should have moved better on the WKU defense, but the matchups were really bad, and once again it all starts with the offensive line.
Our running game has excelled more or less because Lawry and Cox have made a lot of yards on their own. The WKU DLine and LBs did not allow that to happen within the confines of their normal 4-3.

Without having to adjust at all to our running game, their defense was able to concentrate on our passing game. The penetration of the WKU defensive line gave us fits, w/o the need for blitzing. This caused tremendous pressure on DW both with running for his life and having open receivers.
The WKU DBs were fast and prevented a lot of passes that we might otherwise get, and their DBs were fast enough to keep what passes we made from going for yds after the catch, normally a staple of our offense.

We were never going to stop WKU, only #1 Alabama has really done that, but with better OLine play, we might have made it very competitive.
I don't believe that our Oline is any better than last season, if as good.

I honestly think it was far simpler than that. We don't stretch the field, we didn't stretch the field, and we played right into the strengths of their defense. As soon as we started to throw the ball down field, their defense didn't look so daunting.

That is an intriguing point. Additionally, as we discussed a few weeks ago, it seems that when we go up tempo it often confuses and stresses a defense. I don't remember doing that in the WKU game.
Perhaps that is also an adjustment we needed to try.

You can't stretch the field when your QB doesn't have time to throw. We should have been running draws and sweeps.

I disagree. He had enough time. The play calls were terrible. Our only advantage was our WR's vs. their DB's. They didn't show two safeties until it was third and long. Then of course, we ran the ball.

(10-24-2016 08:25 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 08:14 PM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 07:52 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 02:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 12:13 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  We should have moved better on the WKU defense, but the matchups were really bad, and once again it all starts with the offensive line.
Our running game has excelled more or less because Lawry and Cox have made a lot of yards on their own. The WKU DLine and LBs did not allow that to happen within the confines of their normal 4-3.

Without having to adjust at all to our running game, their defense was able to concentrate on our passing game. The penetration of the WKU defensive line gave us fits, w/o the need for blitzing. This caused tremendous pressure on DW both with running for his life and having open receivers.
The WKU DBs were fast and prevented a lot of passes that we might otherwise get, and their DBs were fast enough to keep what passes we made from going for yds after the catch, normally a staple of our offense.

We were never going to stop WKU, only #1 Alabama has really done that, but with better OLine play, we might have made it very competitive.
I don't believe that our Oline is any better than last season, if as good.

I honestly think it was far simpler than that. We don't stretch the field, we didn't stretch the field, and we played right into the strengths of their defense. As soon as we started to throw the ball down field, their defense didn't look so daunting.

That is an intriguing point. Additionally, as we discussed a few weeks ago, it seems that when we go up tempo it often confuses and stresses a defense. I don't remember doing that in the WKU game.
Perhaps that is also an adjustment we needed to try.

You can't stretch the field when your QB doesn't have time to throw. We should have been running draws and sweeps.

I disagree. He had enough time. The play calls were terrible. Our only advantage was our WR's vs. their DB's. They didn't show two safeties until it was third and long. Then of course, we ran the ball.

I confess to being at a watch party and concentrating on food, drink, and conversation, so i didn't watch this game with the scrutiny I usually do.

However, I did see their DLine getting good penetration time after time.
Usually the draw is a good counter, yet I don't remember us try that.
I don't believe a sweep would have been great option. Our Jet Sweep is only marginally effective even when things are going well, and we have nothing close to the Oline necessary for any sort of power sweep.

I am not sure DW had the time as whenever I looked up he was throwing on the run. If it wasn't pressure from the Dline, then either he was missing his initial reads or the WRs were covered.

I do believe we should have gone up tempo, at least for one or two series', if for no other reason than that is has worked before and we had nothing to lose.
This continued predilection to run on third and very long is truly baffling.

(10-24-2016 03:22 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  We have a talent gap that can only be overcome through hard work & commitment. My fear isn't that our best recruits aren't living up to their rankings on Saturdays. It's that they're getting out-worked in the offseason. This is likely why we have so many walk-ons/FCS recruits in prominent roles. The huge red flag for the season was the abnormally large list of players that had to sit out Spring practice due to not meeting their conditioning goals. If your going to train like a turd, you're going to play like one. So the question is, how many of our key players missed weeks of Spring practice? If I were the coach, I'd publish the list this year. Make their work ethic available for all to see... I guess the bottom line is, we can't expect to beat anyone reputable with this type of commitment. But who does that fall on, coaches or players?

What amazes me is that, even with the conditioning goals not being met off season the boys are still doing a pretty good job.
The game vs UMASS was something else. UMASS was tired early, but our boys looked great through the entire game.

(10-24-2016 09:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 03:22 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  We have a talent gap that can only be overcome through hard work & commitment. My fear isn't that our best recruits aren't living up to their rankings on Saturdays. It's that they're getting out-worked in the offseason. This is likely why we have so many walk-ons/FCS recruits in prominent roles. The huge red flag for the season was the abnormally large list of players that had to sit out Spring practice due to not meeting their conditioning goals. If your going to train like a turd, you're going to play like one. So the question is, how many of our key players missed weeks of Spring practice? If I were the coach, I'd publish the list this year. Make their work ethic available for all to see... I guess the bottom line is, we can't expect to beat anyone reputable with this type of commitment. But who does that fall on, coaches or players?

What amazes me is that, even with the conditioning goals not being met off season the boys are still doing a pretty good job.
The game vs UMASS was something else. UMASS was tired early, but our boys looked great through the entire game.

Those conditioning goals were for only the first half of the offseason, the time between the last game and spring practice. This was not an issue during summer practice.

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/ol...31ade.html

You guys still don't realize that was a ploy by Wilder? He knew the team had some high expectations (higher than previous years) this year and decided to do something to kick start the offseason and get the guys focused. You guys don't think this is the first year (or first program) to ever have kids come back from Chirstmas break having not worked out, right?

As for the uptempo, it seems to me we can't really go uptempo until we are completing passes and gaining yards. When you get stuffed over and over, then that just means a 30 sec. possession and back to the defense. I guess you could argue a chicken or the egg situation, but we typically play faster the better we move the ball.

(10-25-2016 06:16 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 09:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 03:22 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  We have a talent gap that can only be overcome through hard work & commitment. My fear isn't that our best recruits aren't living up to their rankings on Saturdays. It's that they're getting out-worked in the offseason. This is likely why we have so many walk-ons/FCS recruits in prominent roles. The huge red flag for the season was the abnormally large list of players that had to sit out Spring practice due to not meeting their conditioning goals. If your going to train like a turd, you're going to play like one. So the question is, how many of our key players missed weeks of Spring practice? If I were the coach, I'd publish the list this year. Make their work ethic available for all to see... I guess the bottom line is, we can't expect to beat anyone reputable with this type of commitment. But who does that fall on, coaches or players?

What amazes me is that, even with the conditioning goals not being met off season the boys are still doing a pretty good job.
The game vs UMASS was something else. UMASS was tired early, but our boys looked great through the entire game.

Those conditioning goals were for only the first half of the offseason, the time between the last game and spring practice. This was not an issue during summer practice.

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/ol...31ade.html

Still it is wasted time. Time you will never get back. In D1 sports it is all about strength and conditioning and to take pretty much a whole winter session off is not good.

(10-25-2016 11:45 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  

(10-25-2016 06:16 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 09:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(10-24-2016 03:22 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  We have a talent gap that can only be overcome through hard work & commitment. My fear isn't that our best recruits aren't living up to their rankings on Saturdays. It's that they're getting out-worked in the offseason. This is likely why we have so many walk-ons/FCS recruits in prominent roles. The huge red flag for the season was the abnormally large list of players that had to sit out Spring practice due to not meeting their conditioning goals. If your going to train like a turd, you're going to play like one. So the question is, how many of our key players missed weeks of Spring practice? If I were the coach, I'd publish the list this year. Make their work ethic available for all to see... I guess the bottom line is, we can't expect to beat anyone reputable with this type of commitment. But who does that fall on, coaches or players?

What amazes me is that, even with the conditioning goals not being met off season the boys are still doing a pretty good job.
The game vs UMASS was something else. UMASS was tired early, but our boys looked great through the entire game.

Those conditioning goals were for only the first half of the offseason, the time between the last game and spring practice. This was not an issue during summer practice.

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/ol...31ade.html

Still it is wasted time. Time you will never get back. In D1 sports it is all about strength and conditioning and to take pretty much a whole winter session off is not good.

Not disagreeing but correcting a continually misquoted thing that they came into summer camp out of shape as well.

These guys worked hard during the spring and summer.

They just needed to match that effort in the winter.

It does matter when you're opponents are working during that time. The football team may have been in good shape relative to their Winter/Spring conditioning. But they may also be a step slower and a pound weaker than what they could've been if they hadn't spent the Winter months exerting minimal effort. ODU has average talent by this conference's standards. Hard work is the only way to close the gap between us and the top teams in this conference. That's just the way it is. Collectively, they haven't done what's required to compete with Western Kentucky (train ALL year). Perhaps they'll see the value in training after getting their arses whipped in multiple ways...

(10-25-2016 02:56 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  It does matter when you're opponents are working during that time. The football team may have been in good shape relative to their Winter/Spring conditioning. But they may also be a step slower and a pound weaker than what they could've been if they hadn't spent the Winter months exerting minimal effort. ODU has average talent by this conference's standards. Hard work is the only way to close the gap between us and the top teams in this conference. That's just the way it is. Collectively, they haven't done what's required to compete with Western Kentucky (train ALL year). Perhaps they'll see the value in training after getting their arses whipped in multiple ways...

Who are you correcting with this post? As I said in the post before yours;

Quote:These guys worked hard during the spring and summer.

They just needed to match that effort in the winter.

A loss like this might be the key to next season. Perhaps it was a good thing. I guess we'll see next year if this loss sparks a fire in the boys.

(10-25-2016 03:19 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(10-25-2016 02:56 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  It does matter when you're opponents are working during that time. The football team may have been in good shape relative to their Winter/Spring conditioning. But they may also be a step slower and a pound weaker than what they could've been if they hadn't spent the Winter months exerting minimal effort. ODU has average talent by this conference's standards. Hard work is the only way to close the gap between us and the top teams in this conference. That's just the way it is. Collectively, they haven't done what's required to compete with Western Kentucky (train ALL year). Perhaps they'll see the value in training after getting their arses whipped in multiple ways...

Who are you correcting with this post? As I said in the post before yours;

Quote:These guys worked hard during the spring and summer.

They just needed to match that effort in the winter.

I believe it is an issue that trickles down to the Spring, Summer, , & ultimately the Fall. Their strength/speed/agility was not what it could have been had they busted their hump in the Winter. So to say it had no affect on the Summer workouts isn't entirely accurate.

Of course there is no way to measure or quantify this, so why bring it up? The net effect may be to small to warrant discussion, we'll never know. My own humble but accurate opinion is the impact is/was miniscule.

(10-25-2016 06:25 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  

(10-25-2016 03:19 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(10-25-2016 02:56 PM)odusteeler Wrote:  It does matter when you're opponents are working during that time. The football team may have been in good shape relative to their Winter/Spring conditioning. But they may also be a step slower and a pound weaker than what they could've been if they hadn't spent the Winter months exerting minimal effort. ODU has average talent by this conference's standards. Hard work is the only way to close the gap between us and the top teams in this conference. That's just the way it is. Collectively, they haven't done what's required to compete with Western Kentucky (train ALL year). Perhaps they'll see the value in training after getting their arses whipped in multiple ways...

Who are you correcting with this post? As I said in the post before yours;

Quote:These guys worked hard during the spring and summer.

They just needed to match that effort in the winter.

I believe it is an issue that trickles down to the Spring, Summer, , & ultimately the Fall. Their strength/speed/agility was not what it could have been had they busted their hump in the Winter. So to say it had no affect on the Summer workouts isn't entirely accurate.

Yes, if you delay anything, the results will take longer to achieve. And these guys have a very small period of time to get faster and stronger. The winter was a wasted opportunity for those players.

But when did I say that it had no effect? I just corrected someone who said the lack of effort was a problem for the entire off-season when we have proof that it wasn't.

ODU can't beat above average FBS teams.

Thanks for that insight. Quality post.

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