(11-06-2016 08:32 AM)Ranger Wrote:  1. From the large number in season firing this year, it seems to be standard practice.

Not discussing the current situation at all.

But with regard to the point above only. It seems you would need to look at the number of coaches fired during the season and compare that number to the number of coaches fired in the weeks following the season.

I thought this was discussed and looked at last year.

Your point may be that it is not a rare or completely uncommon practice.

Nothing else being offered or argued beyond the point.

(11-06-2016 09:43 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  I don't see how this inhibits our working on recruiting our next head coach.

Ever hired anyone for a role that is already filled? The need to maintain confidentially seriously impacts how you publicize the search, interview candidates, and generally approach the entire situation.

(11-06-2016 09:43 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 09:38 AM)Volente Beach Owl Wrote:  Firing Bailiff now enables you to run a broader search for his replacement and get a head start on that critical process. It also sends a signal to fans, donors, and recruits that change is coming and that this level of incompetence is in no way tolerated.

Turning the question around, what good does it do to keep Bailiff in place through the end of the season? Can anyone answer that?

Some of us already have-- if keeping Bailiff on until the season ends is part of a negotiated settlement that dramatically reduces his buyout, then it make sense, especially since we don't have a competent or deserving interim coach on our current staff. I don't see how this inhibits our working on recruiting our next head coach.

Indeed. JK should have a "top 3" list when he boards the plane to Stanford, and ready to make calls on 11/27. Otherwise, he should just stay out there. He's done well with his other hires - now is the time to tee up an impressive football coaching hire to complement the others.

The sad part is I really don't care anymore.

Fire him yesterday, today or at the end of the season, just do it.

Volente-

The answer to your question is the following:

- Dignity. What kind of place is Rice? What are the values? Is it about the program or about a W's and L's? Here is guy that has been here 10 years and done a lot of good. The entire body of work on all dimensions (graduating kids, ambassador, some good moments, etc.) needs to be considered. Yes W’s and L’s not where we want and change is needed but mid season firing should be about lying, cheating, stealing, breaking the rules, etc. Do it right. He has earned that especially as it won’t affect the outcome. Take the high road.

- Players. DB recruited them. Do they start bailing/investigating transfer options without any leadership for next couple months? Keeping DB and staff can help ensure key guys stay in-the-boat for the next guy.

- Next Coach messaging. Does firing DB who is held in high regard in coaching fraternity (vs. here) send a negative message to next coach about how Rice does business? Does next coach want to come to a place that fires coaches midseason? There are enough challenges to coach/win at Rice. My view is JK does not want to add extra things to sell through.

- Process already underway. I have no inside information but if I were a betting man, you gotta believe DB knows. JK knows. BoT knows. Search firm is queued up privately reaching out to candidates. Likely next coach has commitments through bowl season so starting now privately to kick tires and then get process going in late-Nov/early Dec seems reasonable as next coach is not coming full-time until early-Jan. Thus, what does doing something now benefit to the ultimate outcome? There are risks to doing something now to players, recruiting next coach, etc. but other than satisfying a small group of people on this thread, not sure it helps much if wheels are already in motion anyway. These things happen behind closed doors, not on message boards or in public view.

I am very frustrated. Probably a 40-year high of frustration and that is saying something to those who have been around Rice football for a long time and are conditioned to being frustrated. Losing by 17-points at home yesterday tipped me over as it was FAU, not a top-25, not a top-50, heck not even a top-100 team. It was the #1 team in the Bottom 10. Losing is bad enough to that team but not even being competitive in the 4th quarter with coaches still clapping (i.e., not holding players accountable..almost proud of them), players laughing and yawning on sidelines (i.e., not caring) was more than I could handle. Tipped me over.

But with that being said…let’s make sure we still do things the right way to give us the best possible outcome. Rice is better than directional state U that is just a churn/burn game with its coach.

I almost wore a paper bag to the game. By the way UTSA and North Texas are slowly passing us by. I don't understand why Bailiff just resign for the benefit of the players. He has enough money to retire. Is he that greedy?

If I was in the middle of a project at work and in charge of a team of professionals, and we were, quite literally, doing the worst in the country while working on our project, I think it wood be reasonable for my employer to fire me and let a replacement, even if someone else that was previously working for me, get to work.

Similarly, if one of Rice's professors was, quite literally, performing the worst in the country. Y teaching and research metrics, I would expect Rice to fire them and look for a replacement, even if it was in the middle of the semester

With only 3 games left in the season, I don't really care if JK waits (other than my fear that he is waiting because he may not make a change). But theee generalized arguments that a change should not be made mid-season blow my mind. If you suck, you suck, and it's time to give someone an opportunity who might not suck quite as bad. While I understand the financial argument for retaining Bailiff a few more weeks, and I think 69/70/75 makes a valid point about coaches being human and affecting the pool of candidates in the future, I just can't get around the idea that Rice is literally the worst FBS team in the country, which follows on a season of being one of the worst in the country, and Rice still hasn't made a change.

(11-06-2016 11:29 AM)mrbig Wrote:  If I was in the middle of a project at work and in charge of a team of professionals, and we were, quite literally, doing the worst in the country while working on our project, I think it wood be reasonable for my employer to fire me and let a replacement, even if someone else that was previously working for me, get to work.

Similarly, if one of Rice's professors was, quite literally, performing the worst in the country. Y teaching and research metrics, I would expect Rice to fire them and look for a replacement, even if it was in the middle of the semester

With only 3 games left in the season, I don't really care if JK waits (other than my fear that he is waiting because he may not make a change). But theee generalized arguments that a change should not be made mid-season blow my mind. If you suck, you suck, and it's time to give someone an opportunity who might not suck quite as bad. While I understand the financial argument for retaining Bailiff a few more weeks, and I think 69/70/75 makes a valid point about coaches being human and affecting the pool of candidates in the future, I just can't get around the idea that Rice is literally the worst FBS team in the country, which follows on a season of being one of the worst in the country, and Rice still hasn't made a change.

In 1980, candidate Reagan asked if you were better off than you were four years ago. Here we might ask -is Rice football better off now than it was ten years ago. I think people would unanimously agree it is not. It was not great 10 years ago, but it was light years ahead of where we are now. Why should we let DB continue his "magic" of leading us into these uncharted waters. He has demonstrated that it is only going to continue to worsen if he stays. Why not give someone else a chance. Could they do worse?

(11-06-2016 11:58 AM)Ranger Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 11:29 AM)mrbig Wrote:  If I was in the middle of a project at work and in charge of a team of professionals, and we were, quite literally, doing the worst in the country while working on our project, I think it wood be reasonable for my employer to fire me and let a replacement, even if someone else that was previously working for me, get to work.

Similarly, if one of Rice's professors was, quite literally, performing the worst in the country. Y teaching and research metrics, I would expect Rice to fire them and look for a replacement, even if it was in the middle of the semester

With only 3 games left in the season, I don't really care if JK waits (other than my fear that he is waiting because he may not make a change). But theee generalized arguments that a change should not be made mid-season blow my mind. If you suck, you suck, and it's time to give someone an opportunity who might not suck quite as bad. While I understand the financial argument for retaining Bailiff a few more weeks, and I think 69/70/75 makes a valid point about coaches being human and affecting the pool of candidates in the future, I just can't get around the idea that Rice is literally the worst FBS team in the country, which follows on a season of being one of the worst in the country, and Rice still hasn't made a change.

In 1980, candidate Reagan asked if you were better off than you were four years ago. Here we might ask -is Rice football better off now than it was ten years ago. I think people would unanimously agree it is not. It was not great 10 years ago, but it was light years ahead of where we are now. Why should we let DB continue his "magic" of leading us into these uncharted waters. He has demonstrated that it is only going to continue to worsen if he stays. Why not give someone else a chance. Could they do worse?

Most likely is that other schools look at this as "Rice does not really care about football". No doubt many recruits are being told the same . It seems near unanimous that the players have quit now, so ANY emotional kick-start would be good. Anyone in the coaching profession would know that in taking the Rice job that the expectations have been low. Therefore the notion that someone would not take the job because we fired arguably the worst coach in the nation is silly. As mentioned above, coaching at this level is a high reward, but also a high risk situation. After ~ 57 years of watching Rice football, this is my all-time low in interest. Not only do we play in a conference w teams that we had never heard of when growing up, we get the s**t kicked out of us.
I do trust JK to pick a good successor, if the BOT hasn't tied his hands

Promoting an assistant to interim HC is in now way an admission that the assistant is even begin considered for the HC. How many remember when several players said after the first few days of camp under the Toad that now they felt like they were at a D1 program? I think most of these players know that what this staff has done is no where what the majority of D1 programs are like. I worry that some of the better players will want to transfer if they think there is a chance DB stays or isn't dismissed instantly at the end of the season.

Good point that this is a two way street and that the staff has quit on the players. Yesterday after a bad defensive series only Frank Okam was in front of his group reading them the riot act. It paid off for a brief period of time as the next FAU series was 3 and out. But otherwise you had players making huge mistakes and yet they were still on the field.

How humiliating was it for Tyner to be called in to hand off twice then Stehling returns to try and pass (he was sacked)? What kind of message does that send to the players?

I don't think the players have quit. Athletes by nature are competitive and have pride... but there is a difference between competing for pride and competing as a team. If you don't buy in to what you're told to do, then you're not going to do it... at least not with all your ability.

It's hard to imagine anyone still 'buying in' that we're on the right path and just need to 'try harder' or 'execute better'.

You'd think that if effort and execution were the problem, that we'd see more guys being pulled off the field for precisely that. This is part of the accountability that people talk about.

The first time a DB is looking in the backfield, that's a mistake. The second time, maybe he takes a series off and gets read the riot act. The third time he gets replaced. I don't care if he's the best cover guy we have... his 'habit' reduces his effectiveness, which means we NEED to break the habit for him to actually live up to his potential.

(11-06-2016 12:46 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  Promoting an assistant to interim HC is in now way an admission that the assistant is even begin considered for the HC. How many remember when several players said after the first few days of camp under the Toad that now they felt like they were at a D1 program? I think most of these players know that what this staff has done is no where what the majority of D1 programs are like. I worry that some of the better players will want to transfer if they think there is a chance DB stays or isn't dismissed instantly at the end of the season.

Good point that this is a two way street and that the staff has quit on the players. Yesterday after a bad defensive series only Frank Okam was in front of his group reading them the riot act. It paid off for a brief period of time as the next FAU series was 3 and out. But otherwise you had players making huge mistakes and yet they were still on the field.

How humiliating was it for Tyner to be called in to hand off twice then Stehling returns to try and pass (he was sacked)? What kind of message does that send to the players?

I didn't watch the game yesterday, and haven't read the thread yet, but did check the game summary feed on ESPN.com a couple of times while cutting the lawn. For a coach who said this week that he was going to start working in the backup QBs, he sure had a funny way of actually getting them game experience. I don't know how late in the game someone other than Stehling actually had a call to throw a pass, but seeing only one other QB going 2 of 5 passing frustrates me to no end. He says he's working them in, then doesn't do anything to follow through.

As if what this season hasn't turned out bad, but if I were on the team, heard the public pronouncements about that change, and then had it go down like that, I cannot imagine the division that's going on in the locker room. I've had plenty of project teams fracture even worse when management doesn't follow through on its public declaration to change things.

I think getting a coach who would give significant meaningful snaps to Granato and Tyner would be more valuable than the aforementioned and discussed negatives of an in-season firing. Just tell the interim those guys need snaps.

Owl40 is 100% on point

(11-06-2016 02:58 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  Owl40 is 100% on point

Agree. Totally.

(11-06-2016 01:43 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I don't think the players have quit. Athletes by nature are competitive and have pride... but there is a difference between competing for pride and competing as a team. If you don't buy in to what you're told to do, then you're not going to do it... at least not with all your ability.

I think this is more on point than quitting in the sense of giving up and making zero effort. I think players have totally lost trust and confidence in their coaches and schemes, and coaches have totally lost trust and confidence in the players' ability to execute those schemes. So you get the mess we have now. I think the players still want to, but it is almost impossible to make the required effort when you don't believe that what you're being asked to do can work. And that's where I think we are. RFD.

Bailiff has always had the reputation that his teams played hard but executed poorly and made a lot of mental errors. He has certainly lived up to every bit of that reputation at Rice. The difference this year is that the players don't appear to be playing as hard. I think they've lost belief.

To borrow from Tiki, what they need is to be reintroduced to D-1 football.

Quote:It's hard to imagine anyone still 'buying in' that we're on the right path and just need to 'try harder' or 'execute better'.

We're not remotely close to the right path. We've totally lost the plot.

Quote:You'd think that if effort and execution were the problem, that we'd see more guys being pulled off the field for precisely that. This is part of the accountability that people talk about.

They are the problems, and they are not being addressed.

Quote:The first time a DB is looking in the backfield, that's a mistake. The second time, maybe he takes a series off and gets read the riot act. The third time he gets replaced. I don't care if he's the best cover guy we have... his 'habit' reduces his effectiveness, which means we NEED to break the habit for him to actually live up to his potential.

And that is precisely what I have never seen a David Bailiff led coaching staff do. Mediocrity is tolerated, so you get mediocrity. If that. Right now, I don't know that we are getting even that.

I sent the following e-mail to Joe Karlgaard and David Leebron:

I believe that I have been an Owl Club member every year since inception. In recent years i have been able to increase my giving to the higher levels. I am a season ticket holder for football, basketball, and baseball.

What I see with respect to the football program is a head football coach who is not capable of providing the leadership and direction that Rice needs. It appears that the football coaching staff has lost trust and confidence in the players and the players have lost trust and confidence in the coaching staff. In that situation, I believe it is absolutely imperative that the head football coach be replaced no later that the conclusion of this season.

At this point, if David Bailiff is continued as head coach of football past the final game of the current season, at Stanford, then I intend to withdraw my financial support of Rice athletics until the situation is rectified.

(11-06-2016 05:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I sent the following e-mail to Joe Karlgaard and David Leebron:

I believe that I have been an Owl Club member every year since inception. In recent years i have been able to increase my giving to the higher levels. I am a season ticket holder for football, basketball, and baseball.

What I see with respect to the football program is a head football coach who is not capable of providing the leadership and direction that Rice needs. It appears that the football coaching staff has lost trust and confidence in the players and the players have lost trust and confidence in the coaching staff. In that situation, I believe it is absolutely imperative that the head football coach be replaced no later that the conclusion of this season.

At this point, if David Bailiff is continued as head coach of football past the final game of the current season, at Stanford, then I intend to withdraw my financial support of Rice athletics until the situation is rectified.

Rice athletics or just football?

(11-06-2016 05:44 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 05:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I sent the following e-mail to Joe Karlgaard and David Leebron:
I believe that I have been an Owl Club member every year since inception. In recent years i have been able to increase my giving to the higher levels. I am a season ticket holder for football, basketball, and baseball.
What I see with respect to the football program is a head football coach who is not capable of providing the leadership and direction that Rice needs. It appears that the football coaching staff has lost trust and confidence in the players and the players have lost trust and confidence in the coaching staff. In that situation, I believe it is absolutely imperative that the head football coach be replaced no later that the conclusion of this season.
At this point, if David Bailiff is continued as head coach of football past the final game of the current season, at Stanford, then I intend to withdraw my financial support of Rice athletics until the situation is rectified.

Rice athletics or just football?

Let it be athletics for now.

(11-06-2016 05:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 05:44 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 05:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I sent the following e-mail to Joe Karlgaard and David Leebron:
I believe that I have been an Owl Club member every year since inception. In recent years i have been able to increase my giving to the higher levels. I am a season ticket holder for football, basketball, and baseball.
What I see with respect to the football program is a head football coach who is not capable of providing the leadership and direction that Rice needs. It appears that the football coaching staff has lost trust and confidence in the players and the players have lost trust and confidence in the coaching staff. In that situation, I believe it is absolutely imperative that the head football coach be replaced no later that the conclusion of this season.
At this point, if David Bailiff is continued as head coach of football past the final game of the current season, at Stanford, then I intend to withdraw my financial support of Rice athletics until the situation is rectified.

Rice athletics or just football?

Let it be athletics for now.

I switched from FB, MBB to MBB, WBB this past season. Will likely cont that if the trajectory of those sports goes as I expect