We stopped playing GT after 1977 until they fully integrated into the ACC in 1983, and they really weren't any good until 1989 at the earliest. The rivalry we now have with them was built upon all of the close games in the 1990's and 2000's.

NC State isn't a rival despite the "Textile Bowl". It takes more than playing every year to be a rival....there has to be a desire to actually compete and NC State quit competing in football in the late 1970's to concentrate on basketball then quit trying to compete in athletics altogether in the late 1980's. One could make a serious argument that Clemson and BC is more of a rivalry since they joined the ACC because far more often there has actually been divisional implications when we play the Eagles. When it comes to original ACC teams outside of South Carolina our biggest rival was Maryland until they fell off the map in the early 1990's. There was outright hatred between the two teams and fanbases. It was so big that Clemson was the only ACC team that Maryland would move home games from Byrd to old Baltimore Memorial stadium so they could sell more tickets. The only other teams that got that treatment were Penn State and Miami.

Our games with Georgia meant something just about every time we took the field. Usually it was one of the first early season matchups between ranked teams and with the exception of the probation years it was always on TV in a time when that meant it was on one of the Big 3 networks. It was prior to the 1985 Georgia game when Brent Musburger coined "The most exciting 25 seconds in college football".

You can't judge that timeframe by today's standards but if you care to look back in the thread I'm not the only old-timer to feel this way. It's also an opinion shared by our Natty winning QB Homer Jordan
http://onlineathens.com/stories/083102/d...238bbgrLIU

Quote:''When I was playing at Clemson, we recruited real heavily in Georgia and we got a lot of guys from Georgia on the team,'' Jordan said. ''For us, the Georgia-Clemson rivalry was bigger than the Clemson-South Carolina rivalry. It was like that for many years for the whole school in fact, it just seemed like it was bigger than the South Carolina game.''

But hey....what do the people who actually lived through and experienced it first hand know compared to you youngsters. If you'd like more of an education about the subject there's a book called Fighting like Cats and Dogs by Kyle King about the Clemson/UGA rivalry. Still waiting for somebody to publish one about our "rivalry" with NC State.

did anybody think UGA was much better than USC this year in football? lol CU probaby got a tougher game out of SC than they would have with UGA.

reality is SC has arguably been a better program than UGA the past 7 years or so and probaaby a bit early to say SC can't do anything without Spurrier, or UGA is going to become a SEC title winning program, something they haven't done in a long time.

the definition of rival isn't a program that has a won a lot of games in the past and has a huge stadium. that is a preference for opponent, not a rivalry.

(06-24-2016 10:52 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  did anybody think UGA was much better than USC this year in football? lol CU probaby got a tougher game out of SC than they would have with UGA.

reality is SC has arguably been a better program than UGA the past 7 years or so and probaaby a bit early to say SC can't do anything without Spurrier, or UGA is going to become a SEC title winning program, something they haven't done in a long time.

the definition of rival isn't a program that has a won a lot of games in the past and has a huge stadium. that is a preference for opponent, not a rivalry.

I dunno about anybody else but I did. About 32 points better and a few spots in the standings as a matter of fact.

And for being better than UGA the past seven years or so they sure seemed to have finished behind them in the standings more often than not.

But I guess just like you trying to tell me that you know how things were in a time when you weren't around better than somebody who was that you know better than the standings as well.


And the definition of a rival isn't somebody you play every year, it's someone that excites your fanbase because of intense competition and shared desire of the same goals. There aren't but four programs in the ACC that share our goals in football and we play two of them yearly already. We could play SC State every single year to open the season and it wouldn't matter if we played 100 straight games they aren't going to become a rival because they aren't competing for the same goals we are. The same goes for the vast majority of our conference despite what they say preseason. Outside of five programs the rest are just paying it lip service, and really one of the five was doing much the same up until this offseason.

(06-24-2016 10:09 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 08:42 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 07:47 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 07:00 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 06:23 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  SC - Clemson is the biggest rivalry because so many people who grow up in the state went to one of the schools and had family and friends at the other one. this extends to the players on the field, many of them are playing against teammates from high school. that isn't the case with georgia. the rivalries aren't decided by the sidewalk fans who treat college fooball like it is the NFL or something.

Children are so precious!


http://www.dawgsports.com/2010/5/31/1495...eers-now-a

Quote:How, then, can I claim a pre-eminent place for the Clemson Tigers in the pantheon of Georgia rivals? I am able to make such an assertion because I know that, long before we stepped on their face with a hobnailed boot and broke their nose, an even more stirring last-second triumph over an orange-clad rival provoked arguably Munson’s greatest call from a game played between the hedges. Here is Larry becoming borderline-blasphemous in victory:

So we’ll try to kick one 100,000 miles. We’re holding it on our own 49 and a half, gonna try to kick it 60 yards plus a foot and a half. Butler kicked a long one, a long one. Oh, my God! Oh, my God! The stadium is worse than bonkers. . . . I can’t believe what he did! This is ungodly!

Larry Munson wasn’t the only loyal Bulldog who attached such significance to Kevin Butler’s historic kick. In response, Lewis Grizzard penned perhaps his most famous column:

I hugged perfect strangers and kissed a fat lady on the mouth. Grown men wept. Lightning flashed. Thunder rolled. Stars fell, and joy swept through, fetched by a hurricane of unleashed emotions. When Georgia beat Alabama 18-17 in 1965, it was a staggering victory. When we came back against Georgia Tech and won 29-28 in 1978, the Chapel bell rang all night. When we beat Florida 26-21 in the last seconds in 1980, we called it a miracle. And when we beat Notre Dame 17-10 in the Sugar Bowl that same year for the national championship, a woman pulled up her skirt and showed the world the Bulldog she had sewn on her underbritches. But Saturday may have been even better than any of those.

Saturday in Athens was a religious experience. I give this to you, son. Read it and re-read it, and keep it next to your heart.

And when people want to know how you wound up with the name "Kevin" let them read it, and then they will know.

Quote:In the eighteen years immediately preceding the 1992 expansion of the Southeastern Conference, the Bulldogs went 8-7-1 against the Tigers, with ten of those sixteen rivalry showdowns being resolved by seven or fewer points. Among those clashes were such classics as 1974 (28-24), 1977 (7-6), 1979 (12-7), 1980 (20-16), 1982 (13-7), 1983 (16-16), 1984 (26-23), 1985 (20-13), 1986 (31-28), and 1987 (21-20). Clearly, Georgia-Clemson was more competitive and exciting in one recent eighteen-year stretch than Georgia-Tennessee has been in the eighteen years since.

Moreover, while each of the last five confrontations between the Bulldogs and the Volunteers have been settled by double-digit margins, the Classic City Canines and the Fort Hill Felines have followed up their eleven-year run of thrillers from 1977 to 1987 by carding a couple of close ones in their last three showdowns, with the ‘Dawgs winning by two in Death Valley in 1995 and by three in Sanford Stadium in 2002.

In addition to providing more exciting games, the rivalry with Clemson has been more consequential than the SEC East series with Tennessee, too. The seasons from 1980 to 1982, in which the winner of the Georgia-Clemson game went on to play for the national championship at the end of the season, were more critical in that rivalry than any three-year period in the Georgia-Tennessee rivalry, but it is a mistake to think meaningful games between the border foes ended after their season-opening showdown under the lights in Sanford Stadium on Labor Day night in Herschel Walker’s Heisman Trophy-winning season.

The final Associated Press poll had both Georgia and Clemson ranked in the top eleven in 1983. The 1984 series meeting between the Bulldogs and the Tigers pitted the nation’s No. 2 and No. 20 teams on the day of the game. The 1987 game saw the eighth- and eighteenth-ranked teams in the land take the field against one another. Those three games were settled by a total of four points.

Quote:Tempers may have cooled between the Bulldogs and the Tigers during the recent layoffs, but the absence from one another’s schedules has not made our hearts grow fonder. Allude to renewing the rivalry in the popular press or on a message board, and you will see how swiftly contempt can be rekindled. The passage of a few fallow years cannot snuff out the flame of a rivalry that produced such sentiments as these:

Georgia and Clemson have always fought fiercely on the field, but in recent years a bitter hatred has erupted between fans of the two schools, due to the colleges' proximity, mutual success of both football programs, and the hotly-contested recruitment of Herschel Walker.

The Red and Black (1983)

[M]any Clemson fans, particularly ones who attended Clemson in the 70s and 80s, would rather see the Tigers take on the Bulldogs every year. . . . [R]ivalries like Clemson-Georgia are good for the landscape of sports.

The Tiger (2003)

No one really knows why the rivalry between Clemson and Georgia has reached the proportions it has. The schools are in different states and different conferences. . . . But in the last four years, when each school has won two games, the rivalry has grown big enough here that quarterback Homer Jordan can say, "It's getting bigger than the South Carolina game" and no one blinks an eye.

Ivan Maisel, Atlanta Journal-Constitution (1981)

Before the game, when he feared the worst, one University of Georgia athletic official said, "I think now the Georgia Tech game is the one we'd hate most to lose, but the Clemson game is the one we most want to win."

Dan Foster, Greenville News-Piedmont (1984)

The 1980 and 1981 national college football champions were produced not by Alabama or Louisiana or Tennessee, but sprouted from the red clay hills of Georgia and South Carolina, at schools barely 75 miles apart. Neither has a closer geographic rival. Neither has played more fiercely against an opponent in recent times. . . . This is the kind of game that makes all of it possible. And necessary.

Jeff Denberg, Atlanta Journal-Constitution (1982)

[T]he Georgia-Clemson series has been compared to war. In some respects rivalries such as this may be even more intense. If the definitive history of college football in the South is ever written, the Georgia-Clemson series will comprise a prominent chapter.

Tony Barnhart, Atlanta Journal-Constitution (1984)

Quote:As usual where this sport is concerned, Barnhart knew whereof he spoke. It was Clemson, and not Tennessee, to which Bulldog linebacker John Brantley referred when he said: "This is one to see who the men are. It is the kind of game where women and children need to be sitting in the top level because bones are going to be cracking. It's going to be really intense." Such is the difference between a series noteworthy for including the last game to feature the red pants as a regular part of the Georgia road uniform in 1980 and a rivalry important enough for the scarlet britches to be broken out anew later in the decade.

Quote:If you won’t take my word for it, listen to a man who knows better than I do about Bulldog football rivalries. Vince Dooley, who obviously feels no qualms about walking the line between the Georgia and Tennessee camps, characterized the blood feud with Clemson as "a series as heated as we have, a game as intense as we play."

I can't believe we are even debating this. The UGA games are competitive but we could lose every game and beat SoCar and it would make up for it. I don't feel many Clemson fans would say they hate UGA as much. It's more of a mutual respect. Honestly I wouldn't even say UGA could be our #2 rival as FSU is starting to separate themselves as our next biggest rival.

If we played UGA every year like we used to do you would be singing a far different tune.

FSU is currently #2 but that's only because we play them every year and they are the only other football first school in our division.

From the late 1970's until the early 1990's UGA was by far #2, and in many cases it was 1A and 1B with Maryland a distant #3.

Lol this is the most idiotic thing I've read. What about GT? There has been plenty of hatred there. Sure the UGA Clemson games would be a little more rivalry feeling if we played yearly but nothing like SoCar. I would say it would feel somewhere between NCST and GT. There are no other schools that we have a rivalry with close to Carolina Clemson, nor would we have another. Maybe The Citadel if we played them yearly.

GT is a rivalry, but it does not compare to GA or USC. As for NCST, that is not a rivalry. A rivalry has to have the excitement and expecdtations surrounding the game. There is none of that for NCST. It was termed the Textile Bowl because of degrees from the 2 schools that bolstered that industry, (kind of like degrees in buggy whips in today's world) but there is no special feeling for when we play them; it is just another game on the schedule (granted, they have a stadium that can get pretty crazy).

For our yearly games (and I believe the crowds/excitement around the games support this supposition), the games that generate excitement would be 1a. USC, 1b. FSU, 3. GT, 4. UL. Number 5 would be when we have either VT or Miami on the schedule. When we play UGA, it bumps FSU and USC in the excitment and buildup to the game.

The rest of the conference doesn't generate differing degrees of excitement between them. The only exception to that would be an overall hatred of UNC (but not a rivalry in any way).

Good definition for rivalry by Kap. I would add that competing for the same recruits would qualify. UGA and Clemson fit that.

For awhile VT had no rivals in the Coastal except maybe Miami and GT. Now UNC and Pitt are making noises. We will see.

Wow, I thought at the very least the NCSU game was similar to our somewhat of a rivalry game with SC. UGA really does need to play Clemson again on a regular basis because those games are good and very competitive. I don't know if Clemson can topple UF for most hated rival on the schedule, but the Clemson series definitely needs to come back.

a non-alumni doesn't get to decide who Clemson's rivals are. Kap did not attend Clemson.

Your SC State example is stupid b/c obvously they aren't a large university like SC and Clemson, plus Clemson doesn't play them every year. One defienition of a rivalry must be that you play the team often, and CU-USC is one of the oldest annually played games. CU and SC are the two large state schools that a lot of people in the state attend and know a lot of people who went to the other. you can't get the same dynamic with UGA b/c few SC resdents attend UGA.


you only get excited about playing about 15 programs in the country. why not go just go root for a SEC team b/c those are the teams you want to watch. you are so unhappy with the ACC and it is weird that you even bother following Clemson because you don't think any of our wins over ACC teams are good unless they are against FSU.

does anybody think Kap found the SC-CU games more exciting when CU lost 5 in a row? lol

the only exciting games are the ones that are still close in the 4th quarter. when Clemson was blown out on its own field in the 00s against UGA, it wasn't exciting or competitive.

If Clemson had been playng UGA in the 90s, there would have been a lot of blowout losses to UGA.

i can point to example after example of exciting games Clemson has had the past few seasons, tight games in the 4th quarter against lowly ACC teams as Kap sees it. He acts like NC State is nothing but they gave CU a game this year and almost every season, they scored like 55 at Clemson a few years ago.

El Oh El. Even when others chime in and I post examples of players from the era echoing what I say you refuse to admit you are wrong. Starting to think you are a sock puppet of one of the Syracuse fans because they have been the only other ones to act this damn stupid.

you like calling other people stupid but i'm not seeing what your brilliance is. a few quotes by people, some of them not even Clemson alumni or fans,, doesn't mean a majority of Clemson alumni and fans support dropping SC for UGA.

you want CU to play UGA b/c you are really a fan of UGA and other SEC schools like that.

UGA and Clemsonhave only played each other 8 times since and including the 1990 season. 4 of those gamees were in the early 90s.

Clemson is 2-6 against UGA in those 8 recent games.

Georgia leads the series 42–18–4.

i think by your own definition of rivalry, CU-UGA isn't a rivalry. why would UGA fans want to play us if they are like you.

if UGA-CLemson were such big rivals in the eyes of alumni and fans, why don't they play every year out of conference or at least every other year,in addition to the SC game.

Some fun facts from Wikipedia about our so called non-rivalry with SC:

The annual Carolina-Clemson football game (sometimes dubbed "The Battle of the Palmetto State", and known officially since 2014 as the "Palmetto Bowl", from the state's nickname) is the longest uninterrupted series in the South and the second longest uninterrupted NCAA DI-A/FBS series in the country. The series dates back to 1896, and has been renewed every year since 1909. (107 consecutive games)

The universities maintain college football stadiums in excess of 80,000 seats each, placing both in the top 20 in the United States. It is also the second-longest continuous rivalry in college football. From 1896-1959, the Carolina-Clemson game was played in Columbia and referred to as "Big Thursday." Since 1960, the game has alternated between both teams' home stadiums—South Carolina's Williams-Brice Stadium and Clemson's Memorial Stadium as the regular season finale.

Clemson holds a 67-42-4 lead in the series. The average margin of victory between the two teams is less than a touchdown. Clemson holds a 38-29-2 advantage in the Modern Era (post-WWII), and Clemson leads the series 8-7 in the 21st century. Clemson has more wins against USC than any other program has,[53] and Carolina is second behind Georgia Tech in most wins against Clemson.

The problem there is nobody has said it was a non-rivalry except you just now. The only thing that has been said is that from the late 70's till the early 1990's that Georgia was as big as, if not more than, a rivalry as South Carolina by people who were Clemson fans during the period in question and by players who ACTUALLY PLAYED IN BOTH SERIES OF GAMES

Yet here you come with some kind of convoluted logic as someone who most likely wasn't even born when the yearly series ended yet you know better than those of us who actually EXPERIENCED what we are talking about.

Just stop. You have no idea what you are talking about in this case and no amount of bluster you throw out there is going to change that.

you took a few quotes by people who played in games b/t two highly ranked teams, and used it as a basis to say most fans agreed with their statements.

your desire to drop SC for UGA would get crushed if there was a vote on it.

do you think UGA would drop GTech to play Clemson? lol no way. UGA has dominated G Tech in the series at least last 20 years or so but they won't drop G Tech, and that is an intense rivalry, the Hate. wow


uga has only played Clemson 4 times this century, and won 3 out of 4. i am pretty sure Clemson would be willing to play them every year iff they wanted to, but they don't want to.

rivals play each other on regular basis. we woldn't even being discussing this if they were a legit rival and both programs saw it that way.

u were talking about dumping the 2nd oldest football rivalry in the country to play a team that CU has played only 8 times in the last 3 decades with no future games schedule that i am aware of.

SC-CLemson is also consisntently ranked one of the top state rivalries. I've seen at it as high as no. 3.

it could be said to be the one with the most interest nationally when Spurrier had it going and Tajh Boyd was the QB at CU.

(06-25-2016 10:27 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  you took a few quotes by people who played in games b/t two highly ranked teams, and used it as a basis to say most fans agreed with their statements.

your desire to drop SC for UGA would get crushed if there was a vote on it.

And the fact that you know....I was actually around during the period in question, experienced it, and had weekly interactions with Clemson fans.

And go ahead and point out where I stated I wanted to drop South Carolina for UGA. You can't because I never stated that. In fact the only person who brought that up was you.

Quote:do you think UGA would drop GTech to play Clemson? lol no way. UGA has dominated G Tech in the series at least last 20 years or so but they won't drop G Tech, and that is an intense rivalry, the Hate. wow

Not sure what this has to do with anything because the last time I checked teams could have multiple rivals. Michigan has a huge rivalry with Ohio State. They also have huge rivalries with Michigan State and Notre Dame. Texas has a huge rivalry with Oklahoma and Texas A&M. Alabama has huge rivalries with Auburn, Tennessee, and LSU. It's yet another attempt by you to muddy the waters making claims that nobody but you have made.

Quote:uga has only played Clemson 4 times this century, and won 3 out of 4. i am pretty sure Clemson would be willing to play them every year iff they wanted to, but they don't want to.

rivals play each other on regular basis. we woldn't even being discussing this if they were a legit rival and both programs saw it that way.

Yes, I am aware of all of this and even stated that WHEN we were playing UGA every single season during that time frame that the rivalry was as big, if not bigger, than the one with South Carolina. The rivalry died down when the SEC expanded and Georgia had to give up an OOC game for an expanded SEC conference schedule. Had it not we wouldn't be having this discussion because you would have actually experienced it as I have, as Irish_Red has, as Dawg_in_Bama has, as Homer Jordan has, as Lewis Grizzard did, etc. You would then be able to form an opinion based upon fact instead of arguing from a point of ignorance like you are right now.

Quote:u were talking about dumping the 2nd oldest football rivalry in the country to play a team that CU has played only 8 times in the last 3 decades with no future games schedule that i am aware of.

SC-CLemson is also consisntently ranked one of the top state rivalries. I've seen at it as high as no. 3.

it could be said to be the one with the most interest nationally when Spurrier had it going and Tajh Boyd was the QB at CU.

Again, the only person talking about dumping South Carolina is you. I never said I wanted to dump South Carolina, that's some red herring you threw out there.

And I'm glad that South Carolina has stepped up it's game and made the rivalry what it is today. That doesn't change the fact that from the late 1970's until the early 1990's that the Clemson/UGA rivalry was as big, if not bigger, then the Clemson/South Carolina rivalry, and IMO I have put enough facts out there to back that statement up. I can't help it you are so stubborn to admit that you are wrong.

pretty sure you were talking about how you and other Clemson fans would prefer to play UGA over SC, and would support dropping SC for UGA.

by your definition , it is only a rivalry if both teams are highly ranked every time the play. Clemson is only 2-6 against UGA since the 80's, and probably would have lost every game in the last 90s if they had played, but you keep talking about the 80s.

i never denied that there wasn't a lot of hype for the uga-clemson games in the 80s when the two were top 10 programs. there is hype any time two highly ranked teams play, and since we were playing them on an annual basis back then, it was a rivalry. right now it isn't a rivalry.

Why does it matter if Clemson-Georgia was a bigger rivalry for a 12-15 year period nearly 30 years ago?

(06-26-2016 04:34 PM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  Why does it matter if Clemson-Georgia was a bigger rivalry for a 12-15 year period nearly 30 years ago?

Because it's the end of June and there isn't anything else to argue about...?

it wasn't a bigger rivalry. a state rivalry is always the biggest rivalry with some exceptions like Ohio Michigan maybe.

the games may have been more competive and obvously more at stake for highly ranked programs but that does not mean it wsa the bigger rivalry.

i thought his premise was we should drop UGA for SC, b/c he and his friends would prefer to play UGA.

i don't get why he just doesn't root for UGA, or SC, because he wants that SEC schedule and seems miserable watching ACC games.

"NC State isn't a rival despite the "Textile Bowl". It takes more than playing every year to be a rival....there has to be a desire to actually compete and NC State quit competing in football in the late 1970's to concentrate on basketball then quit trying to compete in athletics altogether in the late 1980's."

I guess I feel compelled to defend NC State to those who are new to the conference. The above Kap comments are distorted.

Here are the facts:

NC State did not have a WPA football stadium built for them in the 1930's nor did we have a Tobacco Billionaire or the founders of Union Carbide give us a **** ton of money. As such State played in what was Riddick Stadium, now a parking lot. It was a tiny disgrace of a stadium - so small that WF had a bigger venue in Wake Forest NC. We often played UNC and Duke at their place due to the size. NC State did not offer football scholarships like UNC or Duke until the 1950's which is to say, most of NC State's players until the 1950's would have been walk ons elsewhere.

Despite that, in 1946 we missed out on the Sugar Bowl to UNC as they won the Southern Conference with a 4-0-1 record and NC State was 6-1-0. We played OU in the Gator Bowl and that bastard Jim Tatum stole an NC State playbook and OU won the game. Remember, this is at a time when UNC and Duke are both top 15 programs less than 24 miles from Raleigh.

In 1957 we were 7-1-2 and would have played in the Orange Bowl, except for the fact that the University of Kentucky was mad the we had recruited Jackie Moreland and had the 1,2,3,4, and 6 high school basketball players signed for 1956. NC State had promised to help get Moreland's wife a nursing/medical scholarship (the girl was brilliant). Adolph Rupp was mad because he wanted Moreland, and his buddy at UK ran the NCAA infractions committee. They gave NC State a 4 year probation in ALL sports, costing us the Orange Bowl, and second place Duke took the bid in our place.

In 1967 were were 8-0, having already beaten number 3 Houston at Houston, and playing at Penn State and ranked number 3 in the nation. Number's 1 and 2 had lost, yet we had several key fumbles and lost 13-8 to number 10 Penn State. The next weekend in a monsoonal rain where you could not pass against the wind, we lost at Clemson 14-6 and that cost us a top 10 ranking and a chance to play in the Orange or Sugar Bowl.

In 1975 we were in the 4th year of Lou Holtz when an altercation occurred on the practice field between him and a political science professor because the political science professor did not like Holtz's politics or football. The professor was determined to run on the track despite football practice just to cause an incident. Holt left for the NY Jets.

In 1979 we led Penn State 7-6 in a November game with a Gator Bowl bid on the line when a spectacular defensive play on a pass stopped the clock with a few seconds left and PSU got a fg try from 54 yards into a howling 25 mph north wind before the north endzone was filled in - the damn kick would have been good from 70 yards.

In the late 80-90's Dick Sheridan had revived the program, but guess who was invited to join the ACC? FSU. Without FSU in the ACC in 1992, NC State wins the ACC title and perhaps attempts to stay despite a new athletic director from UNC-Ch, hired to destroy NC State sports and supported by a faculty that despised all athletics.

In the early 2000's we could not get a defense in place for Phillip Rivers and redshit year for him would likely have resulted in major bowl in 2004. As it was, without a strong defense, Rivers was left to sling it down the field for 4 years as we tried to outscore our opponents. But as is NC State's luck, we lost twice to Ohio State by one score on failed QB sneaks, had the winning TD against UNC called back in 2004 by the referee who had been saved from a heart attack on the field at Kenan a few years prior (no **** - he fell dead as hell in the shadow of Memorial Hospital and I will never forget medical folks jumping out of the stands and performing CPR on him as they carried both men off the field, official and medical guy on his chest, and up to the hospital).

For those unfamiliar with the Research Triangle, Duke, UNC, and NC State are in the same metro, and all the football stadiums are no more than 16 miles apart. That's 140K football seats in one place. The only thing comparable are the NY Jets and the NY Giants, and on top of that you have to compete with 50K basketball seats for Duke, UNC, and NC State.

Clemson is the only game in town in western SC. It's a nice advantage.

As such, NC State manages to put together a really good team about once a decade. Over the last 70 years that once a decade has fallen to an unequal schedule in 1946, a rigged basketball vendetta by Kentucky in 1957, a freak weather event in 1967, an idiot professor and an unbelievable fluke kick in the 1970's, the entrance of FSU into the conference at the height of their power in the early 90's, and the mistake of not red shirting Phillip Rivers for a year in the 2000's.

For some reason Kap hates NC State. Likely it goes back to NC State being asked by the conference about Danny Ford paying players back in the 1980's. He in fact denigrates what used to be one of the two natural buddies Clemson had in the conference as MD and NC State were the only other cow colleges.

I used to always pull for Clemson and to be honest, Kap has managed to put me off to Clemson. In fact about a decade ago the wife and I supported Clemson just five rows off the court in the Dean Dome - that takes some moxie as they Super Rams aren't used to seeing support for Clemson in the Dean Dome so close to the court.

After several years of reading Kap, I for one would be more than happy to trade playing Clemson with playing VT as Virginia is a much more important recruiting state to us than South Carolina and you don't have to worry as much about a SC High School education preventing college matriculation.

NC state is definitely trying to compete in football.

Kap is like arrogant FSU and SEC program fans. i basically want to see Clemson lose after reading his posts on here.