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Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
I know we are going to get into sin. I know I have sinful thoughts but have NEVER acted upon those thoughts. I have never sinned against my wife in 22 years. I'm loyal. I am a prideful man. I can't wait to get into confesion and explain my doubts about things. I know I am not going to get answers but within those mysteries that's where the seeds of discontent sprout. I actually have no doubt that there is a God. I just don't understand why he doesn't intervene more. As I am walking up to the bible study last night they had a 40 day poster about the sanctity of life. An end of abortion poster. I have trouble with that and I will talk with the Father about it. I'm going to confess my beliefs. I did not come to that place without thought. What God hath made crooked do we have the right to straighten. I think abortion is Man's way of dealing with over crowding. We are swamping the system. I can't wait to get into evolution but the Catholic Church is on the cutting edge of that. Evolution and Catholics go hand in hand. They are not mutually exclusive.

Blessed are those that believe without seeing. I have seen brothers. That's all I can tell you. Now all of the things man has put into religion. The faults of man. I am who I am and I believe God understands that. I'm in a journey for sure.
10-07-2015 09:57 AM
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Hitch Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 09:57 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I know we are going to get into sin. I know I have sinful thoughts but have NEVER acted upon those thoughts. I have never sinned against my wife in 22 years. I'm loyal. I am a prideful man. I can't wait to get into confesion and explain my doubts about things. I know I am not going to get answers but within those mysteries that's where the seeds of discontent sprout. I actually have no doubt that there is a God. I just don't understand why he doesn't intervene more. As I am walking up to the bible study last night they had a 40 day poster about the sanctity of life. An end of abortion poster. I have trouble with that and I will talk with the Father about it. I'm going to confess my beliefs. I did not come to that place without thought. What God hath made crooked do we have the right to straighten. I think abortion is Man's way of dealing with over crowding. We are swamping the system. I can't wait to get into evolution but the Catholic Church is on the cutting edge of that. Evolution and Catholics go hand in hand. They are not mutually exclusive.

Blessed are those that believe without seeing. I have seen brothers. That's all I can tell you. Now all of the things man has put into religion. The faults of man. I am who I am and I believe God understands that. I'm in a journey for sure.

The whole "you deserve an eternity of punishment for thought-crime" thing always rubbed me the wrong way. Just seems cruel.
10-07-2015 10:19 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
That's mans interpretation. I also think that man made Priests celibate. A lot of problems came from that too. So many of the churches problems stem from man. That's not God's fault. That's mans.
10-07-2015 10:27 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
The church is s tool that in the wrong hands can be disastrous. One can not ignore that reality.
10-07-2015 10:29 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 09:21 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:15 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:02 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Mach,
You first need to understand that you are a sinner , just as all of us are. Pray and ask for forgiveness. Jesus came to earth and paid the ultimate price for your sin and mine.
You are not smarter than God and our ways are not His.

this

So are you suggesting that converting to Catholicism will condemn Mach?

He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.
10-07-2015 10:45 AM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #26
Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
Miko, you are one of the most disingenuous posters on here. Ha!

Mach is obviously searching for answers and well understood.

Romans 3: 23 "For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God".

However, Christ came and sacrificed and atonement for our sins.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2015 11:06 AM by South Carolina Duke.)
10-07-2015 10:49 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 10:49 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Miko I don't need you to speak for me , by thanks!

If I believe that the bread and wine used at the mass is transformed into the body and blood of Jesus, if I ask the Virgin Mary to intercede with God/Jesus for me for a prayer, if I say the "Hail Mary" regularly and believe in that prayer, if I believe that souls that are saved but imperfect go to purgatory, if I venerate saints, have statues of the Virgin Mary and/or other saints in my home, etc... am I a saved Christian?
10-07-2015 10:54 AM
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Post: #28
Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
As one who does not practice what you described,.. am I?
10-07-2015 11:08 AM
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ericsrevenge76 Online
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Post: #29
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 10:45 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 09:21 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:15 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:02 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Mach,
You first need to understand that you are a sinner , just as all of us are. Pray and ask for forgiveness. Jesus came to earth and paid the ultimate price for your sin and mine.
You are not smarter than God and our ways are not His.

this

So are you suggesting that converting to Catholicism will condemn Mach?

He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.


NO I don't believe that if He accepts Christ as His savior that He is going to Hell. Quite the opposite.

Being a member of the RCC does not mean you are going to hell. Just because I disagree with certain aspects of a denominations doctrine does not mean I believe they are all going to hell. NO denomination is perfect, and neither are you, I or anyone else.

Perhaps you should refrain from speaking in absolutes about other peoples opinions when you don't know what you are talking about in the first place.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2015 11:33 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
10-07-2015 11:16 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
See all these things that separate us. This division is all man made. God did not build denominational walls. That is all man made. It's man made because we do not understand things. I'm on a path. I know where I am guided to go. I just make sure I can separate the wheat from the chaff.


Have love in your heart. You will find a way.
10-07-2015 11:29 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 10:19 AM)Hitch Wrote:  The whole "you deserve an eternity of punishment for thought-crime" thing always rubbed me the wrong way. Just seems cruel.

(10-07-2015 10:27 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That's mans interpretation. I also think that man made Priests celibate. A lot of problems came from that too. So many of the churches problems stem from man. That's not God's fault. That's mans.

This (in response to Hitch). That isn't what my faith teaches... though I know some do. My faith teaches that to sin is human.. and you only 'deserve an eternity of punishment' (not words I would use) if you don't admit that it is a sin and do your best to turn from it.
(10-07-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  If I believe that the bread and wine used at the mass is transformed into the body and blood of Jesus, if I ask the Virgin Mary to intercede with God/Jesus for me for a prayer, if I say the "Hail Mary" regularly and believe in that prayer, if I believe that souls that are saved but imperfect go to purgatory, if I venerate saints, have statues of the Virgin Mary and/or other saints in my home, etc... am I a saved Christian?

Why are you asking 'us'?

All we have is opinions... but God either is or he isn't... and on that day, we will know for a fact. If he isn't, then none of it matters. If He is, then 'what you do' matters. As to whether or not your list is 'the list' or not, that is and only ever will (until the day) be opinion... and only on that day will we KNOW for a fact.

That's why it is called faith. That's also why much of the agnostic opinions are also based in the same faith.

To me, religion is a means by which we become the people that God wants us to be. Notice I said A means, not THE means. Some people need the structure and ceremony of religions like Judaism or Catholicism... some need the unabashed 'relinquish of control' of the Pentecostals. Some need the strive for outreach of say the Baptists. Some don't need it at all.

Of course, some who don't need it along with some who do, still aren't becoming the people God wants us to be. Some people who like the structure of some religions do so for personal satisfaction and not to serve His will... same with some who choose 'no' religion. My suggestion is that people find what makes them a better person and do that. Telling someone else they are wrong in a destructive, rather than constructive way doesn't (imo) do that.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2015 11:47 AM by Hambone10.)
10-07-2015 11:44 AM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #32
Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
Luke 12:51

" Do you think I came to bring peace on earth ? No, I tell you, but division.

Good luck Mach, but I can already hear the Moral Relativism is your tone. You sound more like a Unitarian right now.
10-07-2015 11:45 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 11:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 10:45 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 09:21 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:15 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:02 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Mach,
You first need to understand that you are a sinner , just as all of us are. Pray and ask for forgiveness. Jesus came to earth and paid the ultimate price for your sin and mine.
You are not smarter than God and our ways are not His.

this

So are you suggesting that converting to Catholicism will condemn Mach?

He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.


NO I don't believe that if He accepts Christ as His savior that He is going to Hell. Quite the opposite.

Being a member of the RCC does not mean you are going to hell. Just because I disagree with certain aspects of a denominations doctrine does not mean I believe they are all going to hell. NO denomination is perfect, and neither are you, I or anyone else.

Perhaps you should refrain from speaking in absolutes about other peoples opinions when you don't know what you are talking about in the first place.

If you truly believe that, then I apologize to you and the Duke. I've had too many baptists tell me otherwise, so when I see someone posting "just accept Jesus into your heart", it's been my experience that the other shoe is about to drop that will tell me that a practicing Catholic cannot be saved.
10-07-2015 12:07 PM
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mturn017 Online
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Post: #34
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
I don't know much scripture nor do I put much stock in it but this one always resonated with me as true.

1 Peter 4:8

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
10-07-2015 12:16 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 12:07 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 11:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 10:45 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 09:21 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 08:15 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  this

So are you suggesting that converting to Catholicism will condemn Mach?

He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.


NO I don't believe that if He accepts Christ as His savior that He is going to Hell. Quite the opposite.

Being a member of the RCC does not mean you are going to hell. Just because I disagree with certain aspects of a denominations doctrine does not mean I believe they are all going to hell. NO denomination is perfect, and neither are you, I or anyone else.

Perhaps you should refrain from speaking in absolutes about other peoples opinions when you don't know what you are talking about in the first place.

If you truly believe that, then I apologize to you and the Duke. I've had too many baptists tell me otherwise, so when I see someone posting "just accept Jesus into your heart", it's been my experience that the other shoe is about to drop that will tell me that a practicing Catholic cannot be saved.

Maybe fundamentalists have problems with praying to human saints instead of only to the Holy Trinity, but they also believe that if you accept Jesus as your savior, you are saved, regardless of what you did before.
10-07-2015 12:42 PM
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Post: #36
Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
Isn't that exactly what Christ said to one of the criminals being crucified beside him??
10-07-2015 01:05 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Online
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Post: #37
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 12:07 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 11:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 10:45 AM)miko33 Wrote:  He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.


NO I don't believe that if He accepts Christ as His savior that He is going to Hell. Quite the opposite.

Being a member of the RCC does not mean you are going to hell. Just because I disagree with certain aspects of a denominations doctrine does not mean I believe they are all going to hell. NO denomination is perfect, and neither are you, I or anyone else.

Perhaps you should refrain from speaking in absolutes about other peoples opinions when you don't know what you are talking about in the first place.

If you truly believe that, then I apologize to you and the Duke. I've had too many baptists tell me otherwise, so when I see someone posting "just accept Jesus into your heart", it's been my experience that the other shoe is about to drop that will tell me that a practicing Catholic cannot be saved.


There is only one way into heaven, and that is through your belief in Jesus.

Works or interpretation of scripture alone won't get you there. Only faith in Jesus Christ will.

The Bible is just as clear as polished glass on this and says it over and over and over again.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 01:17 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
10-07-2015 02:05 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 12:07 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 11:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 10:45 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 09:21 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  So are you suggesting that converting to Catholicism will condemn Mach?

He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.


NO I don't believe that if He accepts Christ as His savior that He is going to Hell. Quite the opposite.

Being a member of the RCC does not mean you are going to hell. Just because I disagree with certain aspects of a denominations doctrine does not mean I believe they are all going to hell. NO denomination is perfect, and neither are you, I or anyone else.

Perhaps you should refrain from speaking in absolutes about other peoples opinions when you don't know what you are talking about in the first place.

If you truly believe that, then I apologize to you and the Duke. I've had too many baptists tell me otherwise, so when I see someone posting "just accept Jesus into your heart", it's been my experience that the other shoe is about to drop that will tell me that a practicing Catholic cannot be saved.

Maybe fundamentalists have problems with praying to human saints instead of only to the Holy Trinity, but they also believe that if you accept Jesus as your savior, you are saved, regardless of what you did before.

OK. Then if I accept Jesus as my savior, would that mean that I would have to stop praying to Mary asking her to pray for us as well as the praying to the saints asking for their prayers?
10-07-2015 03:28 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
(10-07-2015 02:05 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 12:07 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 11:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 10:45 AM)miko33 Wrote:  He won't admit it, but yes. If you act as a good and faithful Catholic, you will be damned to hell. Your most devout fundamentalists believe this.


NO I don't believe that if He accepts Christ as His savior that He is going to Hell. Quite the opposite.

Being a member of the RCC does not mean you are going to hell. Just because I disagree with certain aspects of a denominations doctrine does not mean I believe they are all going to hell. NO denomination is perfect, and neither are you, I or anyone else.

Perhaps you should refrain from speaking in absolutes about other peoples opinions when you don't know what you are talking about in the first place.

If you truly believe that, then I apologize to you and the Duke. I've had too many baptists tell me otherwise, so when I see someone posting "just accept Jesus into your heart", it's been my experience that the other shoe is about to drop that will tell me that a practicing Catholic cannot be saved.


The Bible is just as clear as polished glass on this and says it over and over and over again.

Ah. Muh simplicity. Just as the "sola fide" crowd can cherry pick Scripture to fit their simplistic views of salvation, so can the other side. Especially considering that every single time the NT mentions the judgement day, it references works or how one lived his life. Salvation is through the grace of God alone and nothing else.....and the grace of God is something that cannot be fully comprehended by the human intellect. I suggest living a good life and living out your faith and not "I'm going to Heaven regardless of anything because I believe in God and Jesus." Faith and belief are pregnant words and encompass much more than just Romans 10:9.

2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body."

James 2:14-26 "14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?[a] 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Matthew 25:30-46 "31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1 Cor 13 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing." "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." (but but but faith alone)

John 3:19-21 "And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

1 John 2:4 " He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 Cor 3:12-15 "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day[a] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Romans 2:5-10 "But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek."

Revelation 2: "9 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jez′ebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality[b] and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her immorality.[c] 22 Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her doings; 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve."

There are countless more. I can keep going. How you live your life is important.....Christ spoke of it often.....it is clear as polished glass.

Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. The Sola Fide nonsense is an irresponsible and intentional misinterpretation of Scripture. Sola Fide is contradicted by the full witness of the New Testament....because the New Testament exists outside of Ephesians 2:8-9 (never verse 10), Romans 10:9, the ridiculous thinking that "works of law (Mosaic law) and good works are the same thing, and a bad translation of John 3:16.
10-07-2015 04:03 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
L'Étoile du Nord
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Posts: 19,103
Joined: Feb 2005
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I Root For: NIU
Location: Cold. So cold......
Post: #40
RE: Either/OR? Or is it Both/AND? Adam/Eve and Human Evolution
If only people put as much effort into just about anything except debating the finer points of any number of books of parables written a thousand years ago, well, we'd have a much better planet.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2015 04:40 PM by Lord Stanley.)
10-07-2015 04:40 PM
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