(05-16-2015 04:39 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  You're right national integrity is only an American thing.

We also haven't essentially abandoned an area that was nominally part of our country.

(05-16-2015 04:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:39 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  You're right national integrity is only an American thing.

We also haven't essentially abandoned an area that was nominally part of our country.

So then how do you think selling it would go over?

Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

(05-16-2015 04:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So then how do you think selling it would go over?
Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

Go over? To whom? To the Egyptian in the street who is starving, why would he care? Particularly if in return the economic assistance meant food in his belly.

And non-starter? Why?

Your saying so doesn't make it true.

(05-16-2015 04:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So then how do you think selling it would go over?
Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

Why?

Your saying so doesn't make it true.

Asking the Egyptians to sell the Sinai is like asking us to sell Wyoming, or New Mexico. Sure, nobody lives there but that isn't the point. The Egyptians have fought an died for it, it's a part of the national culture. The crossing of the suez canal and the drive to recapture it is their most celebrated national victory.

Now there is place to talk about irrelevance, your usage/abandonment point.

I find the fact you think it is in any way realistic absolutely shocking.

(05-16-2015 04:54 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So then how do you think selling it would go over?
Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

Why?
Your saying so doesn't make it true.

Asking the Egyptians to sell the Sinai is like asking us to sell Wyoming, or New Mexico. Sure, nobody lives there but that isn't the point. The Egyptians have fought an died for it, it's a part of the national culture. The crossing of the suez canal and the drive to recapture it is their most celebrated national victory.
Now there is place to talk about irrelevance, your usage/abandonment point.
I find the fact you think it is in any way realistic absolutely shocking.

Their most celebrated national victory? Yeah, until the got their asses kicked and driven back across it. I agree that national pride gets in the way of good sense in lots of situations. But given the state of their economy, there might be a payoff that would get them to do it.

What's more realistic?

(05-16-2015 04:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:54 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So then how do you think selling it would go over?
Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

Why?
Your saying so doesn't make it true.

Asking the Egyptians to sell the Sinai is like asking us to sell Wyoming, or New Mexico. Sure, nobody lives there but that isn't the point. The Egyptians have fought an died for it, it's a part of the national culture. The crossing of the suez canal and the drive to recapture it is their most celebrated national victory.
Now there is place to talk about irrelevance, your usage/abandonment point.
I find the fact you think it is in any way realistic absolutely shocking.

What's more realistic?

"Query relevance?"

Pope Francis is more a mouth piece for the political left than he is for Catholicism. I can't understand how he can call a terrorist an angel of peace. There is no possible peace between the palestinians and the Israeli's so the pope has decided to take the side of islam in this conflict.

(05-16-2015 04:57 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What's more realistic?

"Query relevance?"

Unless you have something else that is more realistic, this may be the best you have, whatever the problems.

I'm not saying it's perfect. It's not. But there's nothing better.

(05-16-2015 05:03 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:57 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What's more realistic?

"Query relevance?"

Unless you have something else that is more realistic, this may be the best you have, whatever the problems.

I'm not saying it's perfect. It's not. But there's nothing better.

I've never claimed to have the answer, but I know a non-starter when I see it.

(05-16-2015 05:04 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I've never claimed to have the answer, but I know a non-starter when I see it.

Well, one of two cases must be true:

1. There is no better idea, in which case this cannot be a non-starter.
2. There is another better idea, or at least an equally good idea, in which case what is it?

There is some price at which Egypt will choke. Egyptians are pragmatic enough that you can do business with them. It's probably cheaper than the price for a place like Saudi, which doesn't have the economic woes that Egypt does. It might be similar for a place like Jordan, which would get you back to what I said should probably have been done in 1925. Jordan might be the equally good idea, although I don't see how a Palestinian state in Jordan would have any better economic options than a Palestinian state carved out of Israel, whereas a Sinai state could have tourism and oil and gas potential, among other things. Also, Jordan doesn't start with nearly as much land to give up, and certainly no territory that is as detached from the rest of the country as Sinai is from Egypt. By the way, I've always thought in terms of something like 33E being the dividing line, which gives Egypt control of the canal plus enough territory on the east bank to be able to protect it.

As I say, if this is the best possible solution, then there has to be a way to get it done. If it's not, then what is?

(05-16-2015 04:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:39 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  You're right national integrity is only an American thing.

We also haven't essentially abandoned an area that was nominally part of our country.

So then how do you think selling it would go over?

Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

Third world countries will do almost anything for money.

(05-16-2015 06:47 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-16-2015 04:39 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  You're right national integrity is only an American thing.

We also haven't essentially abandoned an area that was nominally part of our country.

So then how do you think selling it would go over?
Buying and selling the Sinai is perhaps one of the single most unrealistic ideas put forward, and that's saying a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It's an absolute, unqualified non-starter.

Third world countries will do almost anything for money.

In this case, there may be some very doable options. Egypt wants the Qattara Depression project very badly. Funding that in its entirety would be at least in theory a big deal for their economy. As long as they held the canal and a buffer zone of territory on the east side, they have about everything in Sinai that's of great value. They have some oil and gas and some nice diving spots for tourism, but if they can't maintain order and discipline in the area, they can't maximize the advantage from either. Plus, you can buy those things with money. I agree it's not an easy option to sell, to the Egyptians or to the Palestinians. But it can be structured in a way that make them both better off. Tie it to Tom Clancy's (and others') idea of opening up Jerusalem as an international city, with Israel guaranteed recognition by the Arabs as the tradeoff, and you might have a package that nobody can refuse.