(02-10-2015 08:52 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:49 AM)memphis mania Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:45 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Agreed...That is tough to overcome...

If you posted this a defense of Pastner cool...But my feeling about Pastner is not based on his win loss record, it is based on watching games and being discouraged with how the team performs in many cases. If you blindly look at his resume it sounds crazy to want Pastner gone...But if you have essentially watched every game over his tenure you understand were the teeth gnashing comes from.

It wasn't in defense of Pastner, but more of a gauge to what reality of expectations most of us should have had this year.

I didn't expect the team to be great, but I did expect an organized team with a plan.

And your initial statement is flawed...Probably not many teams have done well with no returning backcourt players...But many teams probably have been successful with new backcourt players playing the majority of the minutes (Returning players who ride the bench means nothing).

If it is flawed; feel free to provide a few examples.

They already did - Kentucky.

(02-10-2015 09:55 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:46 AM)Dylan Wrote:  you are right...they ought to fire guy that's in charge of making sure we have backcourt players.

/thread

That has nothing to do with this thread. I was just asking a simple question, and about what realistic expectations should have been for this season when we tipped the ball off in November. I thought thought that having players zero players with no D1 playing experience returning was pretty significant. Looks like it was since we can only come up with one team that has basically done it. This isn't to defend Pastner. You're right. There should have been better planning so we could have had some experience there.

(02-10-2015 10:01 AM)memphis mania Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 09:55 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:46 AM)Dylan Wrote:  you are right...they ought to fire guy that's in charge of making sure we have backcourt players.

/thread

That has nothing to do with this thread. I was just asking a simple question, and about what realistic expectations should have been for this season when we tipped the ball off in November. I thought thought that having players zero players with no D1 playing experience returning was pretty significant. Looks like it was since we can only come up with one team that has basically done it. This isn't to defend Pastner. You're right. There should have been better planning so we could have had some experience there.

Well, I think the expectations changed when Kedren was brought in - at least on the surface, until we all saw what shape he was in against Wichita.

However, there were also other grad options available.

As far as expectations, I think folks looking at the schedule and the down AAC, along with a front line of Nichols, Shaq and King and with an SEC guard like Kedren and a top 10 juco in Burrell with a talented yet inexperienced bench thought it should be good enough to meet minimum wins for an NCAA seed.

OP...did you expect anything different?

Really?

A certain freshmen TEAM (not just backcourt) did it when college bball teams played tough ball with high IQ levels while also facing upperclassman.

The crappy teams that play today wouldn't even sniff the playoffs if those same teams played in the early 90s...

FACTS

(02-10-2015 08:41 AM)memphis mania Wrote:  How many teams have ever made it to the NCAA Tournament with zero returning scholarship backcourt players? I don't recall any but maybe there are some. This of course is the case with us this year as we do not have one single returning backcourt player.

Note: This is not necessarily a defense for Pastner, but more of a gauge to what reality of expectations we as fans should have had this year.

(02-10-2015 10:25 AM)CUSA_NEWS Wrote:  A certain freshmen TEAM (not just backcourt) did it when college bball teams played tough ball with high IQ levels while also facing upperclassman.

The crappy teams that play today wouldn't even sniff the playoffs if those same teams played in the early 90s...

FACTS

(02-10-2015 08:41 AM)memphis mania Wrote:  How many teams have ever made it to the NCAA Tournament with zero returning scholarship backcourt players? I don't recall any but maybe there are some. This of course is the case with us this year as we do not have one single returning backcourt player.

Note: This is not necessarily a defense for Pastner, but more of a gauge to what reality of expectations we as fans should have had this year.

The playoffs.

LMAO

(02-10-2015 10:25 AM)CUSA_NEWS Wrote:  A certain freshmen TEAM (not just backcourt) did it when college bball teams played tough ball with high IQ levels while also facing upperclassman.

The crappy teams that play today wouldn't even sniff the playoffs if those same teams played in the early 90s...

FACTS

(02-10-2015 08:41 AM)memphis mania Wrote:  How many teams have ever made it to the NCAA Tournament with zero returning scholarship backcourt players? I don't recall any but maybe there are some. This of course is the case with us this year as we do not have one single returning backcourt player.

Note: This is not necessarily a defense for Pastner, but more of a gauge to what reality of expectations we as fans should have had this year.

Ok, so we have named two teams that have done it in the last 25 years.

Oregon in 2012-13 comes to mind. However, they didn't have "zero" returning scholarship players in the backcourt. Altman's team started two tremendously good (but mistake prone) freshmen guards with two other freshmen and a junior coming off the bench. The catch is that junior - Johnathan Loyd - was on a football scholarship...so does he count as a returning scholarship player for the basketball team?

The 2011-12 Texas team returned three players who averaged a combined 14 points from the 2010-11 season. That team brought in five freshman. That team started four frosh and played two key reserves, one of which was a frosh.

Obviously, the 2010-11 Memphis team had no returning back court.

(02-10-2015 10:42 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  The 2011-12 Texas team returned three players who averaged a combined 14 points from the 2010-11 season. That team brought in five freshman. That team started four frosh and played two key reserves, one of which was a frosh.

Obviously, the 2010-11 Memphis team had no returning back court.

And still the Memphis team brought in a guy who played two full SEC seasons.

And the two redshirts were top 100 players.

And the one freshman signee was a top 100 player.

And Burrell was top 10 JC and supposed to be able to play the 1-4, at least in a pinch, but now we see he can basically play the 3 and that's it.

The lone outlier was that Woodson was not highly rated at JUCO.

(02-10-2015 10:46 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:42 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  The 2011-12 Texas team returned three players who averaged a combined 14 points from the 2010-11 season. That team brought in five freshman. That team started four frosh and played two key reserves, one of which was a frosh.

Obviously, the 2010-11 Memphis team had no returning back court.

And still the Memphis team brought in a guy who played two full SEC seasons.

And the two redshirts were top 100 players.

And the one freshman signee was a top 100 player.

And Burrell was top 10 JC and supposed to be able to play the 1-4, at least in a pinch, but now we see he can basically play the 3 and that's it.

The lone outlier was that Woodson was not highly rated at JUCO.

Yeah, it's a silly point. Having returning players like King and Iverson, plus getting a two month head start on practice and getting humbled in Canada should have given the staff a better guide as to what was going on.

Instead, Boy Wonder has sent his future PG to the end of the bench and is riding with Kedren.

Remember, too, Shaq was 100% the starter for two straight years, is pre-season All conference and has been yo-yo'ed as a starter-reserve-starter this year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Pookie, Nick and Shaq all look elsewhere at the end of the year.

Cameron Payne

(02-10-2015 10:56 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Cameron Payne

More spackle instead of replacing the drywall.

(02-10-2015 11:06 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:56 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Cameron Payne

More spackle instead of replacing the drywall.

I was a big fan of Geron and Dixon but when you have Joe, Chris and Antonio why not recruit some high schoolers to learn under them ?

(02-10-2015 10:55 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:46 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:42 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  The 2011-12 Texas team returned three players who averaged a combined 14 points from the 2010-11 season. That team brought in five freshman. That team started four frosh and played two key reserves, one of which was a frosh.

Obviously, the 2010-11 Memphis team had no returning back court.

And still the Memphis team brought in a guy who played two full SEC seasons.

And the two redshirts were top 100 players.

And the one freshman signee was a top 100 player.

And Burrell was top 10 JC and supposed to be able to play the 1-4, at least in a pinch, but now we see he can basically play the 3 and that's it.

The lone outlier was that Woodson was not highly rated at JUCO.

Yeah, it's a silly point. Having returning players like King and Iverson, plus getting a two month head start on practice and getting humbled in Canada should have given the staff a better guide as to what was going on.

Instead, Boy Wonder has sent his future PG to the end of the bench and is riding with Kedren.

Remember, too, Shaq was 100% the starter for two straight years, is pre-season All conference and has been yo-yo'ed as a starter-reserve-starter this year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Pookie, Nick and Shaq all look elsewhere at the end of the year.

You could have added that, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THIS YEAR . Oops, you just did.

(02-10-2015 11:10 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:06 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:56 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Cameron Payne

More spackle instead of replacing the drywall.

I was a big fan of Geron and Dixon but when you have Joe, Chris and Antonio why not recruit some high schoolers to learn under them ?

It's says something that people on a message board have a better feel for program development than those actually in charge of it.

Obviously Pookie wasn't supposed to redshirt, unless the staff recruited him knowing he was shaky on academics, then it's on them.

They still should have gotten a PG in the 2012 class to grow under Joe and Chris.

(02-10-2015 11:10 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:06 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:56 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Cameron Payne

More spackle instead of replacing the drywall.

I was a big fan of Geron and Dixon but when you have Joe, Chris and Antonio why not recruit some high schoolers to learn under them ?

He obviously was going all-in on last year being the year with the experience necessary to advance in the tournament. That went bust and we are now paying the price for that gamble.

(02-10-2015 11:17 AM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  He obviously was going all-in on last year being the year with the experience necessary to advance in the tournament. That went bust and we are now paying the price for that gamble.

And the problem with that will be paying the price next year as well - the PG in training Pookie is languishing at the end of the bench.

Unless Kedren shows some sort of dedication in the offseason that he has up until now not shown - either here or really at Vanderbilt.

(02-10-2015 10:00 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:52 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:49 AM)memphis mania Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:45 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Agreed...That is tough to overcome...

If you posted this a defense of Pastner cool...But my feeling about Pastner is not based on his win loss record, it is based on watching games and being discouraged with how the team performs in many cases. If you blindly look at his resume it sounds crazy to want Pastner gone...But if you have essentially watched every game over his tenure you understand were the teeth gnashing comes from.

It wasn't in defense of Pastner, but more of a gauge to what reality of expectations most of us should have had this year.

I didn't expect the team to be great, but I did expect an organized team with a plan.

And your initial statement is flawed...Probably not many teams have done well with no returning backcourt players...But many teams probably have been successful with new backcourt players playing the majority of the minutes (Returning players who ride the bench means nothing).

If it is flawed; feel free to provide a few examples.

I gave one...But too much trouble to find additional ones due to having to account for transfers and looking at every roster. I am sure more exist.

Hell find me another situation from a team that normally makes the tourney where they return 0 minutes at the guard position.