(01-15-2015 10:41 AM)MJG Wrote:  I get the G5 does not want to share payoff money.

Do they have the power to stop a rules change ?

What rules change are you referring to? The formula for dividing playoff revenue (and awarding playoff access) isn't an NCAA rule. The schools outside the P5 conferences get what they do because the P5 gives them as much as they think they have to to keep antitrust statutes out of play.

Now the shoe is on the other foot. If the G5 believes the money they extracted from the P5 is all they are going to get, they are the ones trying to restrain trade by keeping out new members (now that they got their membership in the club). It will be interesting to see if any FCS school tries to get FBS access through the courts.

Their could be as many as four openings.
The problem they would all be in the Sun Belt.
That is if C-USA takes a SBC member.
So for any school outside of the Southeast FBS is closed.

A combination of Big Sky and MVFC schools could work but would need a rule or two changed.

I imagine football only would work for U Mass ,Army and Delaware. Eventually maybe there would be enough teams for a Northeast conference.

Idaho, NMSU ,PORTLAND ST,SACRAMENTO ST,MONTANA, MONTANA ST,NDSU,SDSU and UNI have big enough stadiums. Five flagship schools in eight states to start with. Delaware ,Army and U Mass could join football only. The MVFC schools would be in the eastern division.

You can sub in or out several schools it doesn't matter.
This conference would take some time to catch up . No reason to think it wouldn't end up as good as the MAC.

The NCAA and its (sub)divisions FCS and FBS have absolutely nothing to do with bowl games other than setting rules on bowl game eligibility. Likewise, the NCAA has nothing to do with the CFP.

The CFP is a contract between ten conferences (P5 and G5), bowl games and ESPN, for a 12 year period.


If the NCAA were to allow new FBS conferences to form from FCS moveups, again that would have nothing to do with the CFP or bowl games.

The new conferences would have no rights to a single dollar of the CFP money and would have no bowl game tie-ins. In theory their teams could be selected at-large but a lot of these new bowl games for the G5 teams already have dual tie-ins to G5 conferences.

(01-15-2015 12:10 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 05:01 PM)MJG Wrote:  Forget about rules because they can change and they kill the conversation in this case.

So I am going to list some schools who given the right opportunity I could see stepping up. ADD some if you wish or give reasons besides NCAA rules why they would not.Also no path currently exist meaning a conference invite is unlikely.

Youngstown ST twenty thousand seat stadium with plans for expansion .Tressel for a president and Pellini as a coach good combination. Four time FCS champ

Too many schools in Ohio

Montana twenty five thousand seat stadium flagship school great support .

Montana ST nineteen thousand seats strong support package deal with Montana .
Makes an invitation to a current conference impossible but helps if there was a new one.

Sacramento ST twenty one thousand seat stadium MWC potential long term because of the size of the town. FBS is better for a program in a city could play Fresno and SDSU home and home.

Portland ST 19566 seat stadium same as Sacramento FCS draws poorly in cities.

So does FBS. Portland St. is a small commuter school and Sac St. is a large commuter school in a state that isn't fanatic about showing up as fans.[b][i]

Northern Iowa sixteen thousand seat dome might make the move to continue games vs in state FBS teams.

Small school small state[/b][/i]

NDSU nineteen thousand seat stadium with plans for twenty five thousand seats .
Eventually the fan base will get tired of FCS especially if more programs leave.
The P5 G5 split has turned FCS into D2 as far as football.

Delaware twenty two thousand seat stadium and great support.

Schools with expansion plans some already in the fundraising stage.
South Dakota,South Dakota ST, Eastern Washington,Cal Poly and UC Davis.

Small population state with large area hampers most of these.
Delaware really doesn't want to go up.


Liberty ,EKU, Jackson ST ,JMU, and UT- Chattanooga all have possible options to join an existing conference.

I don't see twenty teams moving up even if the perfect situation arose.
I could see the four likely independent programs in the future with maybe eight new programs .

West division Idaho ,NMSU and four Big Sky teams

East division Army,U Mass and possibly Deleware football only
The other three or four being MVFC teams. UNI ,SDSU and NDSU for example
A couple of Dakota schools could be all sports they travel a lot anyway if eight all sports was still needed.

So in your opinion if rules were changed what schools would be better off moving up.

Delaware, James Madison, Missouri St, Illinois St. would be better off moving up. Cal Poly and Cal Davis would be better off if they could build up fan support. The rest are better off where they are.

Can any of those build up enough fan support for a successful FBS program (as opposed to one that just hangs onto FBS by its fingernails)? Cal Poly is a good example. It's located in a city of 50,000 people that is 3 hours south of San Jose and 3 hours north of the northern fringes of LA. There are only about 300,000 people within 50 miles of campus.

(01-16-2015 12:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:10 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 05:01 PM)MJG Wrote:  Forget about rules because they can change and they kill the conversation in this case.

So I am going to list some schools who given the right opportunity I could see stepping up. ADD some if you wish or give reasons besides NCAA rules why they would not.Also no path currently exist meaning a conference invite is unlikely.

Youngstown ST twenty thousand seat stadium with plans for expansion .Tressel for a president and Pellini as a coach good combination. Four time FCS champ

Too many schools in Ohio

Montana twenty five thousand seat stadium flagship school great support .

Montana ST nineteen thousand seats strong support package deal with Montana .
Makes an invitation to a current conference impossible but helps if there was a new one.

Sacramento ST twenty one thousand seat stadium MWC potential long term because of the size of the town. FBS is better for a program in a city could play Fresno and SDSU home and home.

Portland ST 19566 seat stadium same as Sacramento FCS draws poorly in cities.

So does FBS. Portland St. is a small commuter school and Sac St. is a large commuter school in a state that isn't fanatic about showing up as fans.[b][i]

Northern Iowa sixteen thousand seat dome might make the move to continue games vs in state FBS teams.

Small school small state[/b][/i]

NDSU nineteen thousand seat stadium with plans for twenty five thousand seats .
Eventually the fan base will get tired of FCS especially if more programs leave.
The P5 G5 split has turned FCS into D2 as far as football.

Delaware twenty two thousand seat stadium and great support.

Schools with expansion plans some already in the fundraising stage.
South Dakota,South Dakota ST, Eastern Washington,Cal Poly and UC Davis.

Small population state with large area hampers most of these.
Delaware really doesn't want to go up.


Liberty ,EKU, Jackson ST ,JMU, and UT- Chattanooga all have possible options to join an existing conference.

I don't see twenty teams moving up even if the perfect situation arose.
I could see the four likely independent programs in the future with maybe eight new programs .

West division Idaho ,NMSU and four Big Sky teams

East division Army,U Mass and possibly Deleware football only
The other three or four being MVFC teams. UNI ,SDSU and NDSU for example
A couple of Dakota schools could be all sports they travel a lot anyway if eight all sports was still needed.

So in your opinion if rules were changed what schools would be better off moving up.

Delaware, James Madison, Missouri St, Illinois St. would be better off moving up. Cal Poly and Cal Davis would be better off if they could build up fan support. The rest are better off where they are.

Can any of those build up enough fan support for a successful FBS program (as opposed to one that just hangs onto FBS by its fingernails)? Cal Poly is a good example. It's located in a city of 50,000 people that is 3 hours south of San Jose and 3 hours north of the northern fringes of LA. There are only about 300,000 people within 50 miles of campus.

Missouri State, James Madison, Cal-Davis and Delaware in terms of student body and population nearby look a lot like a typical FBS school.

Illinois State does also, but they are pretty close to Illinois which might hinder them.

Cal Poly has the advantage of not being in the San Fran or LA metro area (and not that close to Cal, UCLA, USC, Stanford as well as the pros), while still being reasonably close, so they fit as well.

A school like Montana, on the other hand, would seem to be limited to becoming a Wyoming. With the right conference they would do ok and have some good years, but would have a low ceiling as they just couldn't generate much more fan support than they already have.

Cal Poly and Cal-Davis don't have much fan support now so they couldn't move up now. However, they haven't been in Division I but about 10 years or so, so its possible they could get there.

(01-16-2015 12:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  Missouri State, James Madison, Cal-Davis and Delaware in terms of student body and population nearby look a lot like a typical FBS school.

Illinois State does also, but they are pretty close to Illinois which might hinder them.

Cal Poly has the advantage of not being in the San Fran or LA metro area (and not that close to Cal, UCLA, USC, Stanford as well as the pros), while still being reasonably close, so they fit as well.

A school like Montana, on the other hand, would seem to be limited to becoming a Wyoming. With the right conference they would do ok and have some good years, but would have a low ceiling as they just couldn't generate much more fan support than they already have.

Regarding Illinois St and Illinois, both Bloomington-Normal and Urbana-Champaign have their own direct freeways to Chicago. I doubt either team is or would be sustained just by local residents of their respective communities.

(01-15-2015 10:39 AM)MJG Wrote:  Yes I did mean the gamecocks.

I seriously doubt twenty teams would jump even with playoff money. The reason they are to spread out . The Sun Belt will eventually take three from the Southeast.

Geography is just to much of a factor .
NDSU might be the best candidate including some that have already moved up. Without a path to move up senators from seven or more states might demand it. A school like Liberty with almost no chance for an invite eventually will sue.

Not naming schools

School A = averages over twenty five thousand and is a state flagship.

School B = averages six thousand a game and is a directional school.
Who should be FBS ?

If Liberty does not get an invite with the expected next round of shifts, move-ups and invites, expect them to solicit other teams that meet the criteria but are in a similar position without an invite. They'd be asked to join Liberty in a NCAA invite litigation challenge. With just the mere mention of litigation, one can expect the NCAA to cower and at least change to allow those that meet the FBS standards to be independent and reduce the number of required FBS games.

The invite only position would not change. Will scheduling as an independent will very tough. Yes. This is all predicated on 1) if LU does not get an invite, 2) other FCS teams join them in the threat of a suit, and 3) sufficient number of teams participate as independents to help with scheduling. This likely would be a football only arrangement. The Olympic sports could stay as is.

The only upside to FCS teams with this route is to succeed in this arrangement and make themselves as attractive as possible for conferences invites. It certainly is not a fix for FCS teams, but what are the alternatives. Liberty, with it's resources, will not stand still and be dormant once they perceive no options exists for them. The will be proactive.

G5 schools tend to play one money game and one FCS along with two G5 vs G5.

FCS schools also play money games just for half or sometimes a third of the money.
FCS schools schedule D2 schools for extra home games sometimes.

The FCS playoffs are often played when the students have gone home .
Even schools with great support often have their lowest crowds for the playoffs.
The future of FCS is uncertain with it becoming a third tier since the P5 G5 distinction.


A bowl game or two would be easy to start up some bowls are started by conferences .I don't think it would be easy just worth it for certain schools.

For schools in decent sized cities your better off being FBS or not having football.

For flagship schools its about pride and competition.
NDSU,SDSU,Montana ,Montana ST,NMSU,Idaho,Delaware and UMass can compete against each other. Kind of like the MAC no one would spend their way to a big advantage. That happens in a lot of conferences . The MAC improves as time goes on they just do it in a reasonable way.

(01-16-2015 12:34 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(01-16-2015 12:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  Missouri State, James Madison, Cal-Davis and Delaware in terms of student body and population nearby look a lot like a typical FBS school.

Illinois State does also, but they are pretty close to Illinois which might hinder them.

Cal Poly has the advantage of not being in the San Fran or LA metro area (and not that close to Cal, UCLA, USC, Stanford as well as the pros), while still being reasonably close, so they fit as well.

A school like Montana, on the other hand, would seem to be limited to becoming a Wyoming. With the right conference they would do ok and have some good years, but would have a low ceiling as they just couldn't generate much more fan support than they already have.

Regarding Illinois St and Illinois, both Bloomington-Normal and Urbana-Champaign have their own direct freeways to Chicago. I doubt either team is or would be sustained just by local residents of their respective communities.

Illinois State can play good football and be consistent. Their problem is that their stadium is not big enough and they don't average enough fans. We would need to finish renovating the south end zone into a horseshoe to get to the 15,000 required and then get the fans.

Thankfully U of I is only an average team so we don't have to worry about facing off against a historically quality team, but I don't see it happening soon. To be clear, ISU's goal is to eventually move up to the FBS level when everything is aligned (probably wins, bigger stadium, and attendance after a while).

(01-17-2015 08:25 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(01-16-2015 12:34 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(01-16-2015 12:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  Missouri State, James Madison, Cal-Davis and Delaware in terms of student body and population nearby look a lot like a typical FBS school.

Illinois State does also, but they are pretty close to Illinois which might hinder them.

Cal Poly has the advantage of not being in the San Fran or LA metro area (and not that close to Cal, UCLA, USC, Stanford as well as the pros), while still being reasonably close, so they fit as well.

A school like Montana, on the other hand, would seem to be limited to becoming a Wyoming. With the right conference they would do ok and have some good years, but would have a low ceiling as they just couldn't generate much more fan support than they already have.

Regarding Illinois St and Illinois, both Bloomington-Normal and Urbana-Champaign have their own direct freeways to Chicago. I doubt either team is or would be sustained just by local residents of their respective communities.

Illinois State can play good football and be consistent. Their problem is that their stadium is not big enough and they don't average enough fans. We would need to finish renovating the south end zone into a horseshoe to get to the 15,000 required and then get the fans.

Thankfully U of I is only an average team so we don't have to worry about facing off against a historically quality team, but I don't see it happening soon. To be clear, ISU's goal is to eventually move up to the FBS level when everything is aligned (probably wins, bigger stadium, and attendance after a while).

Time is running out to make a move. If the Big 12 holds at 10 we are looking at only a couple of spots left. Should the Big 12 take two from the G5 then the number of spots available is 4. That's it realignment will be over for move ups.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Georgia Southern similar to NDSU as far as success and support. Luckily for them they are in the Southeast. Georgia State getting an invite first shows how silly realignment is.
Image if C-USA settled on twelve teams. The likely result would have been GSU and APP ST waiting till Idaho and NMSU are kicked out.

App St and Georgia Southern deserve to be FBS they have earned it. A number of other schools have also with the biggest concentration being in the Northwest.

The WAC being so weak helps A FBS Big Sky.
The Geography of each conference would be helped.
WAC gaining mostly the Southern part of the conference.
That is at first the BSC teams that leave gain future access to FBS.

NMSU and Idaho would benefit greatly by having a permanent home. The Montana schools gain a tighter conference . A better schedule for fans without having to compete in a conference with schools that have a big advantage on them. Long term they would be better off than a school like Wyoming. That is from a competition standpoint. Wyoming wouldn't change places obviously

(01-17-2015 08:25 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  Illinois State can play good football and be consistent. Their problem is that their stadium is not big enough and they don't average enough fans. We would need to finish renovating the south end zone into a horseshoe to get to the 15,000 required and then get the fans.

Thankfully U of I is only an average team so we don't have to worry about facing off against a historically quality team, but I don't see it happening soon. To be clear, ISU's goal is to eventually move up to the FBS level when everything is aligned (probably wins, bigger stadium, and attendance after a while).

If NIU becomes a target for another G5 conference, then Illinois St could have an opportunity in the MAC. Youngstown would probably pursue the same opportunity, though.

On one hand, IL St (like NIU) would be the only Central timezone team in the conference. But on the other hand, the MAC already has Kent and Akron.

Youngstown State is a complete no go. None of the Ohio schools want them in the MAC.

(01-17-2015 04:52 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Youngstown State is a complete no go. None of the Ohio schools want them in the MAC.

Would the MAC be content with six Ohio + three Michigan + Ball St + Buffalo?

(01-17-2015 05:23 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(01-17-2015 04:52 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Youngstown State is a complete no go. None of the Ohio schools want them in the MAC.

Would the MAC be content with six Ohio + three Michigan + Ball St + Buffalo?

No but there are a bunch of schools that are ahead of YSU. At that point a school in Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, or NY would be preferable. Heck at that point they would allow UMass back as football only. YSU only continues to cannibalize Ohio and puts 3 schools in just NE OH and YSU isn't that far away from BGSU, Toledo, or Ohio. Being in close proximity but that is too much of a good thing.

(01-17-2015 08:58 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(01-17-2015 05:23 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(01-17-2015 04:52 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Youngstown State is a complete no go. None of the Ohio schools want them in the MAC.

Would the MAC be content with six Ohio + three Michigan + Ball St + Buffalo?

No but there are a bunch of schools that are ahead of YSU. At that point a school in Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, or NY would be preferable. Heck at that point they would allow UMass back as football only. YSU only continues to cannibalize Ohio and puts 3 schools in just NE OH and YSU isn't that far away from BGSU, Toledo, or Ohio. Being in close proximity but that is too much of a good thing.

The only chance Youngstown would have is a new conference.
That would include most or all of the schools ahead of them.

I find some recent developments curious.

Youngstown hiring Tressel then Pellini.
SDSU and EWU changing stadium expansion plans to 18500 from twenty two thousand.

Missouri St and UMASS spending a bunch of money without increasing capacity past seventeen thousand.

Makes me wonder if they know a couple of regional FBS conferences are coming . That would also be a reason to keep the stadium smaller. No need to catch up with an existing conference's stadiums capacity. No need for a huge stadium to host G5 teams.

Its hard to imagine a bunch of top fcs schools going down with a sinking ship "the fcs" without a fight when the only difference between them and bottom level g5 is an invitation to a conference.

(01-17-2015 09:41 PM)cleburneslim Wrote:  Its hard to imagine a bunch of top fcs schools going down with a sinking ship "the fcs" without a fight when the only difference between them and bottom level g5 is an invitation to a conference.

That is the question. How can schools that meet the criteria, facilities, attendance, academics, etc...not be included only because of an invite? If challenged, there would have to be a change. It's simply discrimination. The way this is set up reeks of smoke filled, back room good old boy politics when we know it's almost all about money. The academic shield academia hides behind is the facade that what's best for the athlete is what's best for the university. When we know it's about the money.