The jobs haven't left in droves because of regulations. They've left because Yon Wu Tang will work for 25 cents an hour with no pee breaks.

I don't know how long that can keep up..... it's worked so far because of that 18 trillion dollars in debt. We're living on borrowed time.

(09-29-2014 04:11 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The jobs haven't left in droves because of regulations. They've left because Yon Wu Tang will work for 25 cents an hour with no pee breaks.

but Yon would have worked for 10 cents 10 years ago.... so that really hasn't changed... What HAs changed is that we didn't really trust China's economy/government enough to build a factory there 10 years ago. Now we will. They have made it easier/better for us, and the US has to adapt to that. If you don't want to work for 25 cents (and I agree that we shouldn't) then what is there really left to change?

Why do we respond to them making it easier to go there by not making it easier to stay?

(09-29-2014 04:11 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The jobs haven't left in droves because of regulations. They've left because Yon Wu Tang will work for 25 cents an hour with no pee breaks.

But Yon Wu Tang doesn't have the skill set to do 90% of the jobs that we actually want. It's not the jobs going to China that are killing us. It's the jobs that don't leave because they were never here because they went to Germany or Poland instead. And taxes and regulations are major factors in those.

(09-29-2014 04:11 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The jobs haven't left in droves because of regulations. They've left because Yon Wu Tang will work for 25 cents an hour with no pee breaks.

You sure about that? Have you worked in manufacturing for more than 20 years here domestically? As well as dealing with the obstacles and hardships and lack of quality often produced by Yon Wu Tang (you racist )?

Bottom line is, is always the bottom line. I'd rather pay more for the product that I need if it is spot on, of superior quality and exactly what's needed. Not some "close approximation" that is often what we can source overseas.

BUT guess what? There are limits to everything. Limits to what can be paid for the superior widget, just as there are limits to passing off an inferior widget to an end user. It is NOT wages that add the largest burdens to what we can source here, not even close. We are mandated to, at the very least, close up entirely for a full week, twice a year for inspections, cleanings and other stuff. Forget that it is an ongoing effort and could all be done in an afternoon. So guess what? If the job is time sensitive, I gotta go elsewhere, hence overseas often times.

We have huge mandates, often overlapping and redundant as hell that simply aren't necessary and it's only gotten exponentially worse in the last half decade or so. We have people on staff that produce literally nothing, BUT they are probably the most valuable people on staff. They are called "compliance". Guess with what? Rules, regulations, HR, taxes, zerOcare, wiping ones asss and whatever else. But we gotta have em to stay open.

You poo-poo the arguments about removing the obstacles to business, lower taxes and limited regulations, as some kind of boogie-man right wing go to playbook. Have you ever had to have your company or factory or assembly plant in "compliance"? You ever had to answer for any of the above for NOT being in "compliance"? You think that comes cheap? What if you miss one of the bureaucrats arbitrary "marks"? You think those fines are cheap? How about payroll disputes or withholding issues or any of the other whole host of crap that occurs daily? You dealt with, and paid for, all that before?

It's no boogie-man. And keeps many a business owner up allll night long time and time again.

There. there's some "real" talk.

Mach - read Dunks post above. Then think of all the horsecrap you have to do as a teacher that is non-value added, that doesn't help you teach at all. Well, that's what American businesses deal with all the time, except more and more they're saying 'eff it, and moving overseas.

We as a country are so damn foolish for, it seems, doing everything possible to all but run off American businesses.

We are now operating in a world economy and have to play in the sandbox we're in. To many politicians, etc. are acting like it's still 1960 - well it's not. It's 2014.

(09-29-2014 02:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 01:31 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Well words are nice and all, but seeing as how we have dozens of examples of comparative states/nations/cities/etc with differing minimum wages, your theoretical circle-jerk is far less compelling than actual data showing otherwise. Show me data, or you're wasting your words.

This is the sort of thing that obstinate people say

Why? You obviously wouldn't listen anyway.

Government at every level spends money/bypasses income to increase employment. If you're so convinced of your data... that raising wages increases employment, why won't ANY government at any level step up and put their money that they are already spending into it? Instead, they ALWAYS insist that industry put up the money. Why didn't Obama suggest raising the minimum wage as a way to spur employment? That's what you claim the data shows... so why hasn't that been proposed at any level? Can you show me ANY country where this has been introduced and produced those results?

You want me to put up data? I think that data right there speaks volumes.

I'm not in the business of producing this data, and neither are you. You're taking data from people whom you believe, but you cannot substantiate their claims. As a business professional with 30 years experience, I don't bother doing that (to the degree that you do) because I can't reach that sort of conclusion based on such limited information. The data MAY say what they claim and you believe it says, or it may not. The fact that NOBODY is putting their own money where the data (according to you) says they should tells me that you're wrong. Further, there are nuances about anecdotal data (where you look at individual cities and not the entire country) where things can work because the barriers to exit are minimal. A minimum wage ditch digger can 'work' in San Francisco, but be 'employed' in San Jose.


If you INSIST on data, there are numerous sources...

How about the CBO??

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

Quote:Once fully implemented in the second half of 2016, the $10.10 option would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers, or 0.3 percent, CBO projects (see the table below).

What do THOSE guys know, though, right?

Interestingly, they note that a $9 hike MIGHT actually slightly increase employment... OR it could lose a few jobs. What do you think this says about the proposed $15 wage that gets kicked around?

I'm not interested in a 'battle of the data' since neither of us can support or refute summaries of other people's data, AND there are literally thousands of moving parts to things like these, meaning academic studies (including the CBO) are exactly that... academic....

but I AM interested in outcomes.

If you and the left are so convinced of this, why don't you propose raising the minimum wage as a way to grow the economy... and use that growth to offset the GOVERNMENT's investment in higher wages?? I mean seriously, how much different is that than putting a $5,000 'poverty' tax credit? Put that proposal before the CBO and see what it says.

Put your money where your mouth is. (not you personally... 'democrats' in general)

yikes, you're going to hurt the poor fella.

I have a grand idea that no leftist has ever brought up. I think leftists should take the lead and voluntarily pay every fast food worker earning minimum wage an extra 3 bucks an hour from their own pockets.

Lead by example comrades....

(09-29-2014 01:31 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Well words are nice and all, but seeing as how we have dozens of examples of comparative states/nations/cities/etc with differing minimum wages, your theoretical circle-jerk is far less compelling than actual data showing otherwise. Show me data, or you're wasting your words.

But you have no data proving your point, either.

There aren't any actual data showing otherwise. To prove causation requires more than correlation. And numerical data don't prove causation.

Particularly when there are numerous other potential causative factors, mere correlation of data mean nothing.

Owl, Ham - some will never get it. They think you just raise these no-skill jobs wages in a vacuum. Just raise'em and nothing else will change.........or think like fit - more higher education.

They ignore economics and do nothing for the 70% that don't go to college except "Raise the minimum wage"! Yeah, that'll fix all the ills.