I wish we could get to a point where we could discuss these issues in a mature manner. My point of contention and I've said this many times over. The majority of the jobs "our new 21st century" economy is creating are these minimum wage opportunities. What societal impact is this creating? I buy hook line and sinker the argument UCF is making about throwing people on welfare roles. I also think we are in a downward spiral and are in a race to the bottom. Our middle class will soon be the middle class of India and China and Mexico. Is this really the future that we want? I've read Owl #'s ideas that we need to emulate Germany. How do we do this? I'm very pessimistic about our future because I don't see either party being able to change our course on this.

The amount of personal debt is ridiculous in this nation. No debt,...no worries.

(09-29-2014 10:03 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  "Your last paragraph is where it's all at....

You are a good comrade"


Conservatism....

It must be a mental disorder........

How freaking easy is that?

Then we might as well add.... If he is a good comrade then you are a strikingly handsome NAZI!!!!!!!!!

Actually have the guts to discuss his points. They are valid.

Can you read?

He is not discussing anything he is posting leftist talking points. I asked a simple question and he refusing to answer a simple question.

(09-29-2014 11:55 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I wish we could get to a point where we could discuss these issues in a mature manner. My point of contention and I've said this many times over. The majority of the jobs "our new 21st century" economy is creating are these minimum wage opportunities. What societal impact is this creating? I buy hook line and sinker the argument UCF is making about throwing people on welfare roles. I also think we are in a downward spiral and are in a race to the bottom. Our middle class will soon be the middle class of India and China and Mexico. Is this really the future that we want? I've read Owl #'s ideas that we need to emulate Germany. How do we do this? I'm very pessimistic about our future because I don't see either party being able to change our course on this.

Putting people to work in "value added" occupations is key. Value added occupations take a raw material and make it into something more valuable.

Until our boneheaded government realizes this and makes the US an attractive place to do business (tax policies, regulatory atmosphere, etc), we won't see enough "value added" businesses locate here - they will be located elsewhere. We"ll continue this downward spiral of low paying service type jobs and wonder where our economy went.

Take corporate inversions for example, instead of trying to fix the business climate that fosters this stuff - our dumb*** government folks try and "close the tax loopholes". This wonderful way of thinking will only drive more companies to just say "eff it - we'll totally leave the US and set-up shop elsewhere.

(09-29-2014 11:58 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  The amount of personal debt is ridiculous in this nation. No debt,...no worries.

Debt certainly doesn't help.

We have today an entire generation of people who can't strike out on their own because of debt.

Debt is killing us.

The amount of debt that the average American has is horrible. Think of the unsecured debt, car debt, house debt, most of it because people are completely stupid and ignorant about money. However, most of it is because they COVET what others have and have to keep up with the Jones'.

I have no sympathy for these folks either.!!

(09-29-2014 12:29 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  The amount of debt that the average American has is horrible. Think of the unsecured debt, car debt, house debt, most of it because people are completely stupid and ignorant about money. However, most of it is because they COVET what others have and have to keep up with the Jones'.

I have no sympathy for these folks either.!!

I do.

I don't for consumer debt stuff but education debt I do.

Education debt is a choice, just like the Latte at Starbucks. Just curious, do you feel that school debt should be forgiven?

(09-29-2014 12:42 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Education debt is a choice, just like the Latte at Starbucks. Just curious, do you feel that school debt should be forgiven?

Yes and no. That's a complex question.

Explain.

What has any one done so great on their life to have their debts forgiven?



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(09-29-2014 12:55 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Explain.

What has any one done so great on their life to have their debts forgiven?



Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

They aren't legitimate debts in the first place.

Most education debt is grossly inflated to the point of being highway robbery. It ought to be corrected to bring tuition more in line with reality.

I think we should jail those who don't pay back their student debts /s

(09-29-2014 11:19 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  There isn't compelling evidence that this actually occurs, though.

Per AP

No no no no no

I ALMOST put this in my initial response, and then said to myself... no, he won't try that one...

Those do not show ANY causation whatsoever... but are merely resultant. In a growing economy, wages rise... but that doesn't mean that rising wages causes the economy to grow. Virtually every one of these places that has raised the min wage have growing economies... OFTEN as a result of a recovery from the recent downturn.

This is the problem with people who become too enamored with studies and ignore basic economics. If the basic economics don't work, then you need to question your result.

If you own the McDonald's in San Francisco and people will pay $7.50 for a burger, then why aren't you charging them $7.50 right now? If there are workers worth $15/hr, why aren't you hiring them right now? If you're greedy, Why would you wait until they raised the minimum wage before charging people what they are willing to pay? If you're benevolent, why would you wait until the raised the minimum wage to pay people a decent wage?

As has been pointed out.,... If you raise the min wage to $15, you WILL get a better employee than you do at $10/hr... and because of the slack economy, there are good and experienced workers out there willing to work for $15/hr... but in a strong economy, there aren't.

More to the point, because your 'evidence' is small areas and not nationally, AND your increases in waged are local and small... they aren't at all the same thing... and anecdotally meaningless.

Raising the counter worker's wage isn't particularly meaningful to the cost of a burger... but raising the cost of that worker PLUS the stock boy PLUS the regional stock clerk PLUS the lettuce washer PLUS the lettuce picker PLUS etc etc might be.... especially if you go from $10 to $15 as suggested and not from $10 to 10.75. There are a LOT of people earning between $10 and $15 whose wages would ALSO have to rise... but not as many between 10 and 10.75.



More to the point....

Why does the government (and the left) continually try to make corporations be the vehicles of their social engineering? Hasn't the mountains of evidence proven to you that corporations in general seek to avoid rather than absorb costs? Isn't that what all of this 'repatriation' garbage is about? If you want a $15 minimum wage, then vote for a 'reverse' payroll tax that accomplishes that. Rather than have the company send 6.5% of your wages to FICA, they can credit you for the difference between what you pay and what the government thinks you ought to earn.

If all of the evidence you claim is true, then why wouldn't you simply vote to make this happen through the government? The tax receipts as a result of the growth of the economy would offset the expenses. If they wouldn't, then maybe you don't really believe the numbers you put out any more than I do. Leftists, put your money where your mouth is.

That's like saying " you call that an twelve dollar pizza?" It is whatever the market will justify.

Now it's more of an ethical question. You are saying you don't owe it because of your buyers' remorse. ?

But back to the original question, what has any one done in their life that they shouldn't repay their debts?



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(09-29-2014 01:21 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  That's like saying " you call that an twelve dollar pizza?" It is whatever the market will justify.

Now it's more of an ethical question. You are saying you don't owe it because of your buyers' remorse. ?

But back to the original question, what has any one done in their life that they shouldn't repay their debts?



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There is not a functioning market controlling prices; they are controlled arbitrarily. If there was I would agree but there isn't so your point is moot.

Look up the term 'unconscionable.' That's what I see most of these massive student debt situations as.

Ok. However why should your chosen undertaking of debt be forgiven? You will not answer the question.


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(09-29-2014 01:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 11:19 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  There isn't compelling evidence that this actually occurs, though.

Per AP

No no no no no

I ALMOST put this in my initial response, and then said to myself... no, he won't try that one...

Those do not show ANY causation whatsoever... but are merely resultant. In a growing economy, wages rise... but that doesn't mean that rising wages causes the economy to grow. Virtually every one of these places that has raised the min wage have growing economies... OFTEN as a result of a recovery from the recent downturn.

This is the problem with people who become too enamored with studies and ignore basic economics. If the basic economics don't work, then you need to question your result.

If you own the McDonald's in San Francisco and people will pay $7.50 for a burger, then why aren't you charging them $7.50 right now? If there are workers worth $15/hr, why aren't you hiring them right now? If you're greedy, Why would you wait until they raised the minimum wage before charging people what they are willing to pay? If you're benevolent, why would you wait until the raised the minimum wage to pay people a decent wage?

As has been pointed out.,... If you raise the min wage to $15, you WILL get a better employee than you do at $10/hr... and because of the slack economy, there are good and experienced workers out there willing to work for $15/hr... but in a strong economy, there aren't.

More to the point, because your 'evidence' is small areas and not nationally, AND your increases in waged are local and small... they aren't at all the same thing... and anecdotally meaningless.

Raising the counter worker's wage isn't particularly meaningful to the cost of a burger... but raising the cost of that worker PLUS the stock boy PLUS the regional stock clerk PLUS the lettuce washer PLUS the lettuce picker PLUS etc etc might be.... especially if you go from $10 to $15 as suggested and not from $10 to 10.75. There are a LOT of people earning between $10 and $15 whose wages would ALSO have to rise... but not as many between 10 and 10.75.



More to the point....

Why does the government (and the left) continually try to make corporations be the vehicles of their social engineering? Hasn't the mountains of evidence proven to you that corporations in general seek to avoid rather than absorb costs? Isn't that what all of this 'repatriation' garbage is about? If you want a $15 minimum wage, then vote for a 'reverse' payroll tax that accomplishes that. Rather than have the company send 6.5% of your wages to FICA, they can credit you for the difference between what you pay and what the government thinks you ought to earn.

If all of the evidence you claim is true, then why wouldn't you simply vote to make this happen through the government? The tax receipts as a result of the growth of the economy would offset the expenses. If they wouldn't, then maybe you don't really believe the numbers you put out any more than I do. Leftists, put your money where your mouth is.

Well words are nice and all, but seeing as how we have dozens of examples of comparative states/nations/cities/etc with differing minimum wages, your theoretical circle-jerk is far less compelling than actual data showing otherwise. Show me data, or you're wasting your words.

(09-28-2014 10:49 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(09-28-2014 10:15 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(09-27-2014 11:00 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Man, it's sad to see so many people here not want working americans to earn a livable wage simply because they work in the service industry.

Fact is, service industries don't create wealth. Do you really believe that bringing someone their meal should be high paying? Really?

I guess for you it's screw the business owner making any profit - just give the servers all the money.

I wasn't aware a 'livable wage' was considered 'high paying'.

You're arguing against working americans earning enough to live without government assistance, completely oblivious to the fact that large amounts of government assistance goes to those working full time because they don't earn enough. Our low minimum wage just requires you and me to subsidize those businesses because they don't want to pay their employees a liveable wage.

And your complaint about business owners making a profit, it's clear you don't have a great grasp of this subject if you think that an increase in service industry wages will lead to a decrease in profits. It won't, it will simply be transferred onto the consumer as a surprisingly low raise in prices. I guess that Dollar Menu not being a $1.25 menu is more important to you than not keeping full-time workers below the poverty level.

Nobodies arguing against working Americans making as much money as they can. You honestly believe they are? Why are you arguing for those very same people to not have a job at all? See how easy that is to talk in simple platitudes? More hope and change to beleive in? *pooof* hwat? Symbolism over substance, we know it all too, too well.

And by your own admission (you really haven't though this through real well, have you) it will cause a corresponding rise in the cost of the very goods they deliver., Hence- the "raise" is MEANINGLESS. Everything costs more.

Not only that, you don't have a great grasp of business do you? You ever run one? Owned one? Margins for a lot of businesses that employ lots of entry level, unskilled, zit faced teenagers for whom the the minimum wage is intended are on very thin margins as it is. And like it or not prices for damn near everything has been going up, and going up a heck of a lot faster than the fake inflation rate the Feds put out to a dumbed down populace.

You want even fewer people working at all? Make it cost more. You want more people working, make it more affordable. You want people in their teens getting work skills like showing up on time, not stoned or drunk, putting in an honest shift or whatever, then moving on to something better, right? Make it a college wage worthy job sweeping floors like this fantasy 15 bucks an hour and you might as well put those kids on the public dole for a lifetime, right now.

The minimum wage is intended for these crap jobs people can't wait to get through and move on to the next thing. That this government, and more specifically this Administration, is trying to recondition people to believe that it is to be a wage worthy of raising a family of four on is disgusting. It simply means they've given up trying to create a better jobs environment, lets make the fry cook a CAREER!!!

(09-29-2014 01:31 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Well words are nice and all, but seeing as how we have dozens of examples of comparative states/nations/cities/etc with differing minimum wages, your theoretical circle-jerk is far less compelling than actual data showing otherwise. Show me data, or you're wasting your words.

This is the sort of thing that obstinate people say

Why? You obviously wouldn't listen anyway.

Government at every level spends money/bypasses income to increase employment. If you're so convinced of your data... that raising wages increases employment, why won't ANY government at any level step up and put their money that they are already spending into it? Instead, they ALWAYS insist that industry put up the money. Why didn't Obama suggest raising the minimum wage as a way to spur employment? That's what you claim the data shows... so why hasn't that been proposed at any level? Can you show me ANY country where this has been introduced and produced those results?

You want me to put up data? I think that data right there speaks volumes.

I'm not in the business of producing this data, and neither are you. You're taking data from people whom you believe, but you cannot substantiate their claims. As a business professional with 30 years experience, I don't bother doing that (to the degree that you do) because I can't reach that sort of conclusion based on such limited information. The data MAY say what they claim and you believe it says, or it may not. The fact that NOBODY is putting their own money where the data (according to you) says they should tells me that you're wrong. Further, there are nuances about anecdotal data (where you look at individual cities and not the entire country) where things can work because the barriers to exit are minimal. A minimum wage ditch digger can 'work' in San Francisco, but be 'employed' in San Jose.


If you INSIST on data, there are numerous sources...

How about the CBO??

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

Quote:Once fully implemented in the second half of 2016, the $10.10 option would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers, or 0.3 percent, CBO projects (see the table below).

What do THOSE guys know, though, right?

Interestingly, they note that a $9 hike MIGHT actually slightly increase employment... OR it could lose a few jobs. What do you think this says about the proposed $15 wage that gets kicked around?

I'm not interested in a 'battle of the data' since neither of us can support or refute summaries of other people's data, AND there are literally thousands of moving parts to things like these, meaning academic studies (including the CBO) are exactly that... academic....

but I AM interested in outcomes.

If you and the left are so convinced of this, why don't you propose raising the minimum wage as a way to grow the economy... and use that growth to offset the GOVERNMENT's investment in higher wages?? I mean seriously, how much different is that than putting a $5,000 'poverty' tax credit? Put that proposal before the CBO and see what it says.

Put your money where your mouth is. (not you personally... 'democrats' in general)

(09-29-2014 07:50 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 07:11 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 06:36 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  So those of Us whom busted A $$ for 45 years working hard jobs and getting ready to retire with a decent pension, 401k and Social Security will be caught up with and maybe passed by minimum wage legal and illegals that will spiral inflation through the roof for the next 5 years until those same cry babies want minimum wage to go to $20 an hour to wash cars or flip burgers. Get F'N real.

Now you're catching on!

First of all, the exact same argument could be used against any minimum wage whatsoever, and given the long history it has had without being turned into simply voting yourself raises, your concerns are invalid on that aspect.

As for your claim of the large effects it will have on inflation, you don't seem to realize just how little it actually is. Per this study done by the USDA on agricultural costs, the raises in costs from the 1992 and 1997 minimum wage increases were less than half of a percent, with the greatest rise in cost being .9%, and most under .3%.

You're literally arguing for the continued subsidization of workers through welfare and assistance programs instead of forcing employers to bear the burden of their own workers.

Ad you quite literally have NO idea how a real business works, do you?

Pssst! They put their own assses at risk each and every day. You know why? It's not to make the snot nosed, pimple faced, minimum age making, 16 yo rich. It's often times not to make themselves rich, though that's often the initial goal. BUT it is to make a profit. Make money. For themselves. Guess what happens if they don't make money, perhaps because the bloated Federal gubment has mandated yet another arbitrary expense?

Then nobody has that job. And we've seen it in droves in the last 10+ years. Keep it up and you and your socialist buddies will have your dream land- Everyone on the public dole and no one to actually produce something to pay the bills. 18 trillion debt so far will pale in comparison. Welcome to Greece. Only worse.