(07-23-2014 04:15 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 11:26 AM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 09:15 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 09:40 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 08:34 PM)ken d Wrote:  Having followed ECU for 40 years, I'd have to say they have moved up to the point where they are now a quintessential G5 team. Until 1980, their opponents were, for all intents and purposes, what we now call FCS. Through the 80's, most of their victories were against either FCS schools or Independents without much pedigree, including Cincinnati (6 wins between "86 and '92)and Temple.

For the last 34 years, they are a .500 program, playing as either an indy or in C-USA. If that's not G5, I don't know what is.

Your facts are just not correct. In fact, since 1983, we've beaten NC State more than anyone, having a 9-6 advantage. But thanks for stopping by.

So, tell me. Which facts are not correct? Would you care to list ECU's schedules from the 70's to dispute my contention that it was largely an FCS schedule? By 1980, you were starting to build up to an FBS schedule, having decided to leave your Southern Conference mates behind in FCS. That year you beat an FBS team (Duke) and Richmond, Western Carolina and William and Mary.

In '84 your wins came against Georgia Southern and E. Tennessee State. In '85 you beat NC State and SW Texas State. In '86 it was Georgia Southern and Cincinnati. In '87 you had a big year, beating State, Ga Southern, Cincy, Va Tech and Temple. Shall I go on?

I like ECU as much as any school. But let's not kid ourselves. ECU is right where it belongs.

[b]Come on pal, enough with the subterfuge and anti-ECU rhetoric. Let's get real. [/b]

As far as the 60s & 70s go, yes we played in the SoCon but that was the precursor to the ACC & the SEC & even WVU & VT were still there when ECU 1st joined in the 60s. ECU has joined Division 1A at it's inception in 1978 and even played in a bowl game that year (Independence). Consequently, ECU has always played at the highest level of CFB since the inception of the modern era and the BCS and now the P5 have consistently tried to marginalize ECU and has hindered ECU's ability to compete on a level playing field. Notwithstanding those impediments, ECU has remained a factor and a force in CFB.

You purposefully skip over the '83 team, that beat Mizzou & NCSU and finished in the top 20 in the nation, in your analysis. More importantly, you completely ignore the 90s because that was ECU's best decade (multiple ranked teams including a top 10 finish all while playing extremely tough schedules). ECU was largely considered the best team in the Carolinas during the 90s (ECU went 5-2 against USC and 3-1 against NCSU and didn't play UNC or Clemson back then).

C-USA 1.0 was a much much better football league than it is now because of better teams and the BCS hadn't widened the gap as much until the 2000s (e.g., Usually 2 or 3 teams ranked at any given time, out of only 8 member schools).

The 3 years before ECU was in C-USA the Pirates would have been C-USA champs if included in '96 or if you count the Liberty Bowl Alliance in '94 & '95. The 1st C-USA football season ECU was not included but went 8-3 with wins over #12 Miami, South Carolina, & NCSU while a 7-4 C-USA champ UH got beat by Syracuse in the Liberty Bowl. The 2 years before that, ECU won the Liberty Bowl Alliance (precursor to C-USA) and played in 2 consecutive Liberty Bowls (loss to Illinois & a win over Stanford).

Furthermore, ECU has consistently been a contender in C-USA (every year except for the 2 years John Thompson was HC (only 2 seasons that ECU had a losing conference record out 17 seasons in C-USA)). Pre-John Thompson, in a tough C-USA 1.0, ECU started off 22-11 in conference and including Logan's last year as HC, ECU was 26-16 in conference games. In C-USA 2.0, ECU went 52-22 in league play.

So not counting the 2 John Thompson years ECU went an impressive 78-38 in league play in C-USA 1.0 & 2.0 combined. Even when adding in the dreadful 2 seasons with JT at the helm ECU went 81-51 in all 17 C-USA seasons with 2 championships and finishing 2nd in an additional 7 seasons (again, if counting the Liberty Bowl Alliance and 1st season of C-USA play that excluded ECU, the Pirates would have 3 more additional C-USA titles).

Another thing that you don't consider is that historically ECU's OOC schedule has been brutal. ECU usually plays at least average BCS teams on up to elite level. & that accounts for 1/3 of the games each and every season. Notwithstanding the ridiculously difficult OOC schedules, ECU is still 133-112 over the last 20 years (all of the C-USA days and including the Liberty Bowl alliance).

ECU has been every bit as good as UNC and NCSU during that time period notwithstanding having to survive in a rigged system with much less resources and exposure. Accordingly, I stand by my argument that if given a P5 platform ECU would be the dominant team in NC. In fact, ECU may be on the verge of it anyway.

I haven't used any anti-ECU rhetoric here or anywhere else. They are one of my favorite teams - certainly the one with whom I have the closest family ties. I asked you which of my facts were wrong. You didn't respond, but instead cherry picked highlights. I get that. You're trying to sell something, and I'm not.

You call the SoCon the precursor to the ACC and SEC. Seriously? In your lifetime? I asked about your schedules in the 70's. Here they are, in all their glory. Games you lost are indicated by an L.

1970
Toledo - L
East Tennessee State -L
Citadel -L
West Texas A&M -L
NC State -L
Southern Illinois -L
Richmond -L
Furman
West Virginia -L
Marshall
Davidson

1971
Toledo -L
Wm & Mary -L
Bowling Green -L
Citadel
Richmond -L
West Virginia -L
NC State
Furman
Davidson
Tampa -L

1972
VMI
Southern Illinois
Appalachian State
Richmond
Citadel
NC State -L
Furman
Chattanooga
Wm & Mary
Davidson
UNC -L

1973
NC State -L
Southern Miss
Southern Illinois
Furman
Davidson
VMI
Citadel
UNC -L
Wm & Mary
Richmond
Appalachian State

1974
Bowling Green
East Tennessee State
Southern Illinois
NC State -L
Furman
Appalachian State -L
Dayton
Citadel
Richmond -L
Wm & Mary
VMI -L

1975
NC State -L
Appalachian State -L
Wm & Mary
Southern Illinois
Richmond -L
Citadel
Western Carolina
UNC
Furman
Virginia
VMI

1976
Southern Miss
NC State
Wm & Mary
Citadel
Southern Illinois
VMI
UNC -L
Western Carolina
Richmond
Furman -L
Appalachian State

1977
NC State -L
Duke
Toledo
VMI
South Carolina -L
Southern Illinois
Richmond
Citadel
SW Louisiana -L
Appalachian State
Wm & Mary -L

1978
Western Carolina
NC State -L
UNC -L
SW Louisiana
UT Arlington
VMI
Southern Miss -L
Richmond
Appalachian State
WM & Mary
Marshall
Louisiana Tech

1979
Western Carolina
NC State -L
Duke -L
Wake Forest -L
VMI
Citadel
UNC - Tie
Appalachian State
Richmond
North Texas
Wm & Mary

I'm not knocking those schedules. I'm just pointing out that this wasn't exactly big time football even then. You were playing your peers, as you should have been. And since you moved up after the FBS split, how have you done? If it's significantly better than .500 then I must be reading the record books wrong.

There is no criticism of ECU anywhere in there. I love ECU. My wife was an ECC grad, and her mother before her an alum of ECTTS. Several nieces are proud ECU alums. You should be proud of what they have achieved. It just doesn't make them stand out among G5 schools in the way you think it does.

You really are full of it. Please don't patronize real ECU fans. No one said we were big time football "even then." Like I said, we were D1A at its inception. So yes that does separate us from the vast majority of teams outside the P5. Why don't you come up with an exhaustive list of other teams like that? Because it would be very short and only serve to prove my point. So don't act like you give a f*** about ECU.

Moreover, when we came up and started playing really tough schedules, I don't deny that we had some growing pains in the 80s. You see, that's not what I'm arguing. What I am asserting is that ECU does not fit in with most of the G5. I would also make that argument for much of the AAC. But to further illustrate my point, ECU has approximately a 75% winning percentage against teams currently in the AAC (the best non-P5 conference).

What other non-P5 program has multiple wins over teams like UNC and NCSU and has also beaten the likes of VT, WVU, UVA, Boise State all over the last 6 years or so? We have also won multiple conference championships and beaten some quality teams in conference (some of them ranked) during that stretch as well (UH, Tulsa, UCF, etc. all multiple times). You are just ignorant if you can't see that ECU is a top non-P5 program & that's just based on recent history.

Accordingly, my argument stands, ECU doesn't really fit in with the G5 and our history (recent and past all the way back to the inception of division 1A) indicates that we are basically on the same level as average P5 programs like UNC & NCSU (as one poster aptly stated we have a 9-6 advantage over NCSU since '83). Now just imagine what we would be capable of if we had the intrinsic advantages that those two programs are blessed with.

as a relatively new PIRATE (2008) its very interesting to get so many views and opinions on ECU ... they certainly have a great history of so called P-5 upsets over the years ... from what I have been seeing and reading that is going to be a MAJOR point to think about is attendance & ECU is a G-5 leader for sure ... as a quick side note I am a Maryland fan also so I can definitely relate to both bottom P-5 and top P-5 football ( was around for the Randy White to Boomer Esaison years) and have watched the Terps struggle mightily as well as hammer teams over the years ... but ... back to my premise -- attendance ... the AAC MUST get every school to 50K as soon as possible to even think of P-5 status etc ... when you look at topics and stats on fans in da stands those numbers scream G-5 ... I cant stress how psyched I am for Houston, Tulane, Cincy & their efforts to crank it up on campus -- that's what its all about! ... but until all of the AAC schools can get to a minimum of 50000 strong on a regular basis we can forget any P-5 hopes ...

(07-24-2014 09:14 AM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 04:15 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 11:26 AM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 09:15 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 09:40 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  Your facts are just not correct. In fact, since 1983, we've beaten NC State more than anyone, having a 9-6 advantage. But thanks for stopping by.

So, tell me. Which facts are not correct? Would you care to list ECU's schedules from the 70's to dispute my contention that it was largely an FCS schedule? By 1980, you were starting to build up to an FBS schedule, having decided to leave your Southern Conference mates behind in FCS. That year you beat an FBS team (Duke) and Richmond, Western Carolina and William and Mary.

In '84 your wins came against Georgia Southern and E. Tennessee State. In '85 you beat NC State and SW Texas State. In '86 it was Georgia Southern and Cincinnati. In '87 you had a big year, beating State, Ga Southern, Cincy, Va Tech and Temple. Shall I go on?

I like ECU as much as any school. But let's not kid ourselves. ECU is right where it belongs.

[b]Come on pal, enough with the subterfuge and anti-ECU rhetoric. Let's get real. [/b]

As far as the 60s & 70s go, yes we played in the SoCon but that was the precursor to the ACC & the SEC & even WVU & VT were still there when ECU 1st joined in the 60s. ECU has joined Division 1A at it's inception in 1978 and even played in a bowl game that year (Independence). Consequently, ECU has always played at the highest level of CFB since the inception of the modern era and the BCS and now the P5 have consistently tried to marginalize ECU and has hindered ECU's ability to compete on a level playing field. Notwithstanding those impediments, ECU has remained a factor and a force in CFB.

You purposefully skip over the '83 team, that beat Mizzou & NCSU and finished in the top 20 in the nation, in your analysis. More importantly, you completely ignore the 90s because that was ECU's best decade (multiple ranked teams including a top 10 finish all while playing extremely tough schedules). ECU was largely considered the best team in the Carolinas during the 90s (ECU went 5-2 against USC and 3-1 against NCSU and didn't play UNC or Clemson back then).

C-USA 1.0 was a much much better football league than it is now because of better teams and the BCS hadn't widened the gap as much until the 2000s (e.g., Usually 2 or 3 teams ranked at any given time, out of only 8 member schools).

The 3 years before ECU was in C-USA the Pirates would have been C-USA champs if included in '96 or if you count the Liberty Bowl Alliance in '94 & '95. The 1st C-USA football season ECU was not included but went 8-3 with wins over #12 Miami, South Carolina, & NCSU while a 7-4 C-USA champ UH got beat by Syracuse in the Liberty Bowl. The 2 years before that, ECU won the Liberty Bowl Alliance (precursor to C-USA) and played in 2 consecutive Liberty Bowls (loss to Illinois & a win over Stanford).

Furthermore, ECU has consistently been a contender in C-USA (every year except for the 2 years John Thompson was HC (only 2 seasons that ECU had a losing conference record out 17 seasons in C-USA)). Pre-John Thompson, in a tough C-USA 1.0, ECU started off 22-11 in conference and including Logan's last year as HC, ECU was 26-16 in conference games. In C-USA 2.0, ECU went 52-22 in league play.

So not counting the 2 John Thompson years ECU went an impressive 78-38 in league play in C-USA 1.0 & 2.0 combined. Even when adding in the dreadful 2 seasons with JT at the helm ECU went 81-51 in all 17 C-USA seasons with 2 championships and finishing 2nd in an additional 7 seasons (again, if counting the Liberty Bowl Alliance and 1st season of C-USA play that excluded ECU, the Pirates would have 3 more additional C-USA titles).

Another thing that you don't consider is that historically ECU's OOC schedule has been brutal. ECU usually plays at least average BCS teams on up to elite level. & that accounts for 1/3 of the games each and every season. Notwithstanding the ridiculously difficult OOC schedules, ECU is still 133-112 over the last 20 years (all of the C-USA days and including the Liberty Bowl alliance).

ECU has been every bit as good as UNC and NCSU during that time period notwithstanding having to survive in a rigged system with much less resources and exposure. Accordingly, I stand by my argument that if given a P5 platform ECU would be the dominant team in NC. In fact, ECU may be on the verge of it anyway.

I haven't used any anti-ECU rhetoric here or anywhere else. They are one of my favorite teams - certainly the one with whom I have the closest family ties. I asked you which of my facts were wrong. You didn't respond, but instead cherry picked highlights. I get that. You're trying to sell something, and I'm not.

You call the SoCon the precursor to the ACC and SEC. Seriously? In your lifetime? I asked about your schedules in the 70's. Here they are, in all their glory. Games you lost are indicated by an L.

1970
Toledo - L
East Tennessee State -L
Citadel -L
West Texas A&M -L
NC State -L
Southern Illinois -L
Richmond -L
Furman
West Virginia -L
Marshall
Davidson

1971
Toledo -L
Wm & Mary -L
Bowling Green -L
Citadel
Richmond -L
West Virginia -L
NC State
Furman
Davidson
Tampa -L

1972
VMI
Southern Illinois
Appalachian State
Richmond
Citadel
NC State -L
Furman
Chattanooga
Wm & Mary
Davidson
UNC -L

1973
NC State -L
Southern Miss
Southern Illinois
Furman
Davidson
VMI
Citadel
UNC -L
Wm & Mary
Richmond
Appalachian State

1974
Bowling Green
East Tennessee State
Southern Illinois
NC State -L
Furman
Appalachian State -L
Dayton
Citadel
Richmond -L
Wm & Mary
VMI -L

1975
NC State -L
Appalachian State -L
Wm & Mary
Southern Illinois
Richmond -L
Citadel
Western Carolina
UNC
Furman
Virginia
VMI

1976
Southern Miss
NC State
Wm & Mary
Citadel
Southern Illinois
VMI
UNC -L
Western Carolina
Richmond
Furman -L
Appalachian State

1977
NC State -L
Duke
Toledo
VMI
South Carolina -L
Southern Illinois
Richmond
Citadel
SW Louisiana -L
Appalachian State
Wm & Mary -L

1978
Western Carolina
NC State -L
UNC -L
SW Louisiana
UT Arlington
VMI
Southern Miss -L
Richmond
Appalachian State
WM & Mary
Marshall
Louisiana Tech

1979
Western Carolina
NC State -L
Duke -L
Wake Forest -L
VMI
Citadel
UNC - Tie
Appalachian State
Richmond
North Texas
Wm & Mary

I'm not knocking those schedules. I'm just pointing out that this wasn't exactly big time football even then. You were playing your peers, as you should have been. And since you moved up after the FBS split, how have you done? If it's significantly better than .500 then I must be reading the record books wrong.

There is no criticism of ECU anywhere in there. I love ECU. My wife was an ECC grad, and her mother before her an alum of ECTTS. Several nieces are proud ECU alums. You should be proud of what they have achieved. It just doesn't make them stand out among G5 schools in the way you think it does.

You really are full of it. Please don't patronize real ECU fans. No one said we were big time football "even then." Like I said, we were D1A at its inception. So yes that does separate us from the vast majority of teams outside the P5. Why don't you come up with an exhaustive list of other teams like that? Because it would be very short and only serve to prove my point. So don't act like you give a f*** about ECU.

Moreover, when we came up and started playing really tough schedules, I don't deny that we had some growing pains in the 80s. You see, that's not what I'm arguing. What I am asserting is that ECU does not fit in with most of the G5. I would also make that argument for much of the AAC. But to further illustrate my point, ECU has approximately a 75% winning percentage against teams currently in the AAC (the best non-P5 conference).

What other non-P5 program has multiple wins over teams like UNC and NCSU and has also beaten the likes of VT, WVU, UVA, Boise State all over the last 6 years or so? We have also won multiple conference championships and beaten some quality teams in conference (some of them ranked) during that stretch as well (UH, Tulsa, UCF, etc. all multiple times). You are just ignorant if you can't see that ECU is a top non-P5 program & that's just based on recent history.

Accordingly, my argument stands, ECU doesn't really fit in with the G5 and our history (recent and past all the way back to the inception of division 1A) indicates that we are basically on the same level as average P5 programs like UNC & NCSU (as one poster aptly stated we have a 9-6 advantage over NCSU since '83). Now just imagine what we would be capable of if we had the intrinsic advantages that those two programs are blessed with.

The bolded parts are the kind of things one says when the facts don't support your case. One of the things I have respected most about Pirate fans over the years is that they don't make such loutish statements. You are an exception. You can disagree with me. You can call me names. What you have not been able to do is show me that I am wrong.

If you are interested in a civil discussion, count me in. But if you just want to don purple and gold colored glasses and hurl insults, come back when you get over that.

Bottomline:

ECU is 2nd among non-P5 schools in attendance and 45th nationally among all schools

ECU has beaten more "BCS" schools in the past 20 years than anyone among the G5

ECU football hurts UNC and NC State football. That alone should be a feather in the pirate hat.

No one has more room or perspective to comment on ECU than someone who has followed NC State over the last 4 decades.

If not for their unfortunate location in Eastern NC, in a State with 4 P-5's and further hemmed in by UVa, VT, SC, and Clemson, ECU football would have grown even more. If you want to understand ECU Football you need to understand Leo Jenkins - the man who brought the Medical School to Greenville and knew that football was the way to get ECU on the map.

I think ECU has the best football history over the last 40 compared to any team in the AAC that was not pushed down from the SW Conference. Cincy has had a great deal of recent success, higher than what ECU has reached, but over the long term, ECU has been competitive against P-5's for the last 40 years, not just played them, but been competitive. Cincy and UConn didn't come to that level until two decades ago.

When it comes to media coverage, Greenville NC is almost in a black hole, and ECU has to compete against UNC, NC State, Duke, and Wake for coverage in North Carolina, ECU is also located outside the I-85/40 corridor where almost all the Urban population of NC resides. They are not a spatially isolated as Appalachian State, but they are somewhat isolate. Despite this, ECU has grown their football program tremendously - I respect them.

What ECU does not have is a corresponding presence on the basketball court and that hurts them in the area. UNC and NC State will always work to keep them down - we must - it's not fair but it's the way of the world.

(07-24-2014 10:16 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  Bottomline:

ECU is 2nd among non-P5 schools in attendance and 45th nationally among all schools

ECU has beaten more "BCS" schools in the past 20 years than anyone among the G5

HERE HERE!!!

(07-24-2014 10:16 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  ECU has beaten more "BCS" schools in the past 20 years than anyone among the G5

I think Navy owns that title, but ECU would probably be next.

@ ken d:

I apologize if you are offended but outside of 2 short segments that you made bold, there was a lot of principled logic in my diatribe. Actually a whole lot, so please don't let my frustration keep you from seeing the truth. Please show me the errors in my logic the way I just established what you are failing to recognize. I'm actually offended that someone would call themselves an ECU fan and say that the G5 is where we belong.

I think if you truly look at the multi-factored totality of the circumstances, you should see that ECU has impressive attendance, ability to compete with quality P5 teams, administrative leadership, the coaches, the vision, vastly improved academic/research rankings, fan support, facilities, etc. Further, since ECU has achieved all of this despite operating under a rigged system, that alone should be a major inference that ECU doesn't deserve to be lumped together with the likes of most of the programs currently in the G5.

(07-24-2014 01:23 PM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  @ ken d:

I apologize if you are offended but outside of 2 short segments that you made bold, there was a lot of principled logic in my diatribe. Actually a whole lot, so please don't let my frustration keep you from seeing the truth. Please show me the errors in my logic the way I just established what you are failing to recognize. I'm actually offended that someone would call themselves an ECU fan and say that the G5 is where we belong.

I think if you truly look at the multi-factored totality of the circumstances, you should see that ECU has impressive attendance, ability to compete with quality P5 teams, administrative leadership, the coaches, the vision, vastly improved academic/research rankings, fan support, facilities, etc. Further, since ECU has achieved all of this despite operating under a rigged system, that alone should be a major inference that ECU doesn't deserve to be lumped together with the likes of most of the programs currently in the G5.

No hard feelings. There was indeed a lot of principled logic in what you said. I don't dispute it. I just don't agree that the totality of what you said, plus what you didn't say, justifies your conclusion. I think you are in the conference where you belong, and I think that conference is a significant step below the P5 conferences. By every metric I've seen, and some I have developed myself, there is IMO a clear line of demarcation between the P5 conferences and the two best G5 conferences, one of which is the AAC.

As I said before, you should be proud of ECU and what it's accomplished. And you are entirely justified in wanting - even expecting - more. I just don't think you're there yet, and a lot of my reasoning has nothing to do with football. While football may drive the conference alignment bus, most schools in those P5 conferences are also committed to competing and excelling in a lot of sports.

Whatever I, or you, think about where ECU belongs, I can't ignore the fact that the market has spoken. It has heard all your arguments - Terry Holland made them repeatedly and passionately, and few administrators have enjoyed the respect of his peers more than TH. But even his clout couldn't get ECU into the Big East when it counted. I think it was those non-football factors that drove the decision.

I expect ECU to be competitive in AAC football. But they will struggle in other sports without a commitment equal to that given to football. Since 2000, you have shown you can compete with those schools. You are 16-5 combined against Memphis (who I view as an ECU peer) and Tulane since 2000, and against the other 7 schools (including Navy) you are a respectable 17-21, with a winning record against Tulsa, UCF, and Houston during that time.

You view that as evidence that ECU doesn't belong in the AAC. I view it as evidence that it does. Disagreements like that are what drive forums like this. What else do we talk about in July?

(07-24-2014 11:04 AM)PIRATE TERP Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 10:16 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  Bottomline:

ECU is 2nd among non-P5 schools in attendance and 45th nationally among all schools

ECU has beaten more "BCS" schools in the past 20 years than anyone among the G5

HERE HERE!!!

Schools or games?? Beating a large variety of schools is impressive. Thumping UNC and NCState every few years not so much. Y'all are good but there ain't much difference in the lower Half of the P5 and the upper half of the G5.
I think ECU is in the same boat with about 30 other teams in the G5, good enough to be P5 but may never have a chance to prove it.

(07-24-2014 02:59 PM)Dawg87 Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 11:04 AM)PIRATE TERP Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 10:16 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  Bottomline:

ECU is 2nd among non-P5 schools in attendance and 45th nationally among all schools

ECU has beaten more "BCS" schools in the past 20 years than anyone among the G5

HERE HERE!!!

Schools or games?? Beating a large variety of schools is impressive. Thumping UNC and NCState every few years not so much. Y'all are good but there ain't much difference in the lower Half of the P5 and the upper half of the G5.
I think ECU is in the same boat with about 30 other teams in the G5, good enough to be P5 but may never have a chance to prove it.

Both. ECU won 25 games against schools that were in BCS conferences at the time the games were played, plus three more against schools that have since moved up to P5. Predictably, a lot of those wins were against ACC and Big East teams. That's a function of geography mostly.

Those 25 wins were against 12 different schools. The NC schools (including Duke and Wake) account for the largest piece - 11 wins. The other two ACC wins were VaTech and UVa.

Seven wins came against three BE schools - Syracuse (2), Miami (2) and West Virginia (3).

The other wins came against SEC school South Carolina (3 wins), plus Texas Tech (Big 12) and Stanford (PAC 12). They also beat Louisville (now ACC) and TCU twice (now Big 12).

(07-23-2014 04:15 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't used any anti-ECU rhetoric here or anywhere else. They are one of my favorite teams - certainly the one with whom I have the closest family ties. I asked you which of my facts were wrong. You didn't respond, but instead cherry picked highlights. I get that. You're trying to sell something, and I'm not.

You call the SoCon the precursor to the ACC and SEC. Seriously? In your lifetime? I asked about your schedules in the 70's. Here they are, in all their glory. Games you lost are indicated by an L.

1970
Toledo - L
East Tennessee State -L
Citadel -L
West Texas A&M -L
NC State -L
Southern Illinois -L
Richmond -L
Furman
West Virginia -L
Marshall
Davidson

1971
Toledo -L
Wm & Mary -L
Bowling Green -L
Citadel
Richmond -L
West Virginia -L
NC State
Furman
Davidson
Tampa -L

1972
VMI
Southern Illinois
Appalachian State
Richmond
Citadel
NC State -L
Furman
Chattanooga
Wm & Mary
Davidson
UNC -L

1973
NC State -L
Southern Miss
Southern Illinois
Furman
Davidson
VMI
Citadel
UNC -L
Wm & Mary
Richmond
Appalachian State

1974
Bowling Green
East Tennessee State
Southern Illinois
NC State -L
Furman
Appalachian State -L
Dayton
Citadel
Richmond -L
Wm & Mary
VMI -L

1975
NC State -L
Appalachian State -L
Wm & Mary
Southern Illinois
Richmond -L
Citadel
Western Carolina
UNC
Furman
Virginia
VMI

1976
Southern Miss
NC State
Wm & Mary
Citadel
Southern Illinois
VMI
UNC -L
Western Carolina
Richmond
Furman -L
Appalachian State

1977
NC State -L
Duke
Toledo
VMI
South Carolina -L
Southern Illinois
Richmond
Citadel
SW Louisiana -L
Appalachian State
Wm & Mary -L

1978
Western Carolina
NC State -L
UNC -L
SW Louisiana
UT Arlington
VMI
Southern Miss -L
Richmond
Appalachian State
WM & Mary
Marshall
Louisiana Tech

1979
Western Carolina
NC State -L
Duke -L
Wake Forest -L
VMI
Citadel
UNC - Tie
Appalachian State
Richmond
North Texas
Wm & Mary

I'm not knocking those schedules. I'm just pointing out that this wasn't exactly big time football even then. You were playing your peers, as you should have been. And since you moved up after the FBS split, how have you done? If it's significantly better than .500 then I must be reading the record books wrong.

There is no criticism of ECU anywhere in there. I love ECU. My wife was an ECC grad, and her mother before her an alum of ECTTS. Several nieces are proud ECU alums. You should be proud of what they have achieved. It just doesn't make them stand out among G5 schools in the way you think it does.

Let's see if I can spin this around a bit...

Okay, so we played Socon before the FBS/FCS split. It was still in the highest division of fb at the time. We'll just say it was G5 of it's time. After the split we go indy to stay relevant. With this independence, we started to play some pretty good teams and more established programs. We'll say it's almost like going from G5 to P5 today. The most recent additions to the P5 have seen mixed success.

Anyway, who starts hot right out of the gate? We go from playing in the Socon to some pretty tough schedules starting around 80-81. It took time to adjust, find new coaches, find our place in CFB. In 82 and 83 we had winning seasons, with wins over Mizzou, NC State and a tough USM team in 83. We didn't have another winning season until 89. That's when I think Pirate football records turned for the better. Around a decade after playing a "real" schedule.

I'll indicate close games against teams that are now P5.

Bill lewis' first year as Head Coach

1989 (6-5 with one win against a team now P5)
Bowling Green- W
Cincinnati- W
Illinois State- W
Louisiana Tech- T
South Carolina- L
Virginia Tech- W (by 4)
Syracuse- L (by 2)
#7 Miami- L
Temple- W
#19 Pittsbugh- L (by 5)
Southern Miss-L

1990 (5-6)
Louisiana Tech- W
#3 Florida State- L
Virginia Tech- L (by 1)
SWLA- W
Georgia- L (by 4)
Southern Miss- L
South Carolina- L
Cincinnati- W
Temple- L
Memphis-W
NIU- W

1991 (11-1 with 5 wins against teams that are now P5)
Illinois- L (by 7)
Memphis- W
UCF- W
South Carolina- W
Akron- W
#15 Syracuse- W (by 3)
#23 Pitt- W (by 1) ECU ranked #20
Tulane- W - #17
Southern Miss- W - #16
Virginia Tech- W (by 7) - #14
Cincinnati- W - #13
Peach bowl - #21 North Carolina State - W (by 3) - #12

Finished #9

New head coach- Steve Logan

1992 (5-6 with 3 wins over teams that are now P5)
Syracuse - L
Virginia Tech - W (by 3)
South Carolina - W (by 2)
Bowling Green- L
Duke - L
Cincinnati - W
Pittsburgh- W (by 6)
Southern Miss - L
WVU - L
Arkansas State - W
Memphis - L

1993 (2-9)
Syracuse- L
UCF - W
Washington - L
Memphis - L
South Carolina- L
Louisiana Tech - W
Southern Miss - L
Virginia Tech- L
Tulsa - L
Kentucky - L (by 3)
Cincinnati - L

1994 (7-5, a lone "p5 win))
Duke - L (by 3)
Temple- W
Syracuse- L (by 3)
Southern Miss- W
South Carolina - W
#19 Virginia Tech - L (by 7)
Tulsa - W
Cincinnati- W
#3 Auburn - L
UCF - W
Memphis - W
Liberty bowl - Illinois - L

1995 (9-3, 3 wins over teams who are now P5, finished #23 in coaches poll)
#8 Tennessee- L
#22 Syracuse - W (by 3)
Central Michigan - W
Illinois -L (by 7)
West Virginia - W (by 3)
Cincinnati - L
Temple - W
Southern Miss - W
Army - W
Tulsa - W
Memphis - W
Liberty bowl - Stanford - W (by 6)

1996 (8-3, 3 wins over teams who are now P5)
ETSU- W
West Virginia - L (by 1)
South Carolina - W
UCF - W
Southern Miss- L
#12 Miami - W
Arkansas State - W
#25 Virginia Tech- L
Ohio - W
Memphis - W
North Carolina State - W

1997- First year of C-USA (5-6 with 2 wins over teams who are now P5)
West Virginia - L- (by 7)
Wake Forest- W- (by 1)
South Carolina- L
Syracuse - L
Tulane - L (went undefeated I believe)
Memphis - W
Louisville- W
Houston- W
Cincinnati- W
North Carolina State- L

1998 (6-5)
Virginia Tech - L
Chattanooga - W
Ohio - W
Army- W
UAB - W
Alabama-L (by 1)
Southern Miss- L
Houston- L
Cincinnati- L
Louisville-L
Cincinnati- W
Memphis- W

1999 (9-3, 5 wins over current P5)
West Virginia- W
Duke- W
South Carolina- W
#9 Miami- W (by 4)
Army- W (ECU ranked #21)
Southern Miss- L - #18
Tulane W- #20
Houston- W- #17
UAB - L :( - #17
Cincinnati- #24
North Carolina State- W - #21
Mobile Bowl - TCU L - #19

In 2000 we went 8-4 beating Duke, Syracuse, Louisville and Texas Tech. Lost to #9 VT and West Virginia. This is a pretty good stopping point....as the Pirates went down hill for a while.

It took time, but we got to a point where we were playing some good teams at high levels (except for a couple seasons in the 80s where we did pretty well). All without the same resources as big state schools/conference affiliation...

You can take 91-99 and look at it as some of our best football, everyone has their good years, bad, etc. I think you can throw in the good with the bad (after getting settled into independence) and say that ECU has been an above average program....especially for G5.

Also: I'm including the new P5 additions...we're looking at how we've done to determine whether or not we are the model for a G5 team. It's only fair to compare to other teams that have made it to P5.

(07-24-2014 03:54 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  Okay, so we played Socon before the FBS/FCS split. It was still in the highest division of fb at the time. We'll just say it was G5 of it's time. After the split we go indy to stay relevant. With this independence, we started to play some pretty good teams and more established programs. We'll say it's almost like going from G5 to P5 today. The most recent additions to the P5 have seen mixed success.

Anyway, who starts hot right out of the gate? We go from playing in the Socon to some pretty tough schedules starting around 80-81. It took time to adjust, find new coaches, find our place in CFB.

It took time, but we got to a point where we were playing some good teams at high levels (except for a couple seasons in the 80s where we did pretty well). All without the same resources as big state schools/conference affiliation...

I don't know if you realize this or not, but you are arguing back with him, but you just made the same point he made that you are arguing against and saying was wrong. This right here, is exactly the point Ken was making. Exactly the point. His point was playing in the socon was the "highest division" in name only, and once you started playing schedules that look like major conference schedules, ECU struggled.


I stay out of this in terms of agreeing or disagreeing - there is a historical context you had to "be there" for to understand that can't be explained using a current context (i.e. looking at a schedule and you see team who are major now, may not have been major then) - but since he is on his own in this debate, I have to point out that you just proved the very point you were arguing against, and getting offended by that he was making.

(07-24-2014 04:20 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 03:54 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  Okay, so we played Socon before the FBS/FCS split. It was still in the highest division of fb at the time. We'll just say it was G5 of it's time. After the split we go indy to stay relevant. With this independence, we started to play some pretty good teams and more established programs. We'll say it's almost like going from G5 to P5 today. The most recent additions to the P5 have seen mixed success.

Anyway, who starts hot right out of the gate? We go from playing in the Socon to some pretty tough schedules starting around 80-81. It took time to adjust, find new coaches, find our place in CFB.

It took time, but we got to a point where we were playing some good teams at high levels (except for a couple seasons in the 80s where we did pretty well). All without the same resources as big state schools/conference affiliation...

I don't know if you realize this or not, but you are arguing back with him, but you just made the same point he made that you are arguing against and saying was wrong. This right here, is exactly the point Ken was making. Exactly the point. His point was playing in the socon was the "highest division" in name only, and once you started playing schedules that look like major conference schedules, ECU struggled.


I stay out of this in terms of agreeing or disagreeing - there is a historical context you had to "be there" for to understand that can't be explained using a current context (i.e. looking at a schedule and you see team who are major now, may not have been major then) - but since he is on his own in this debate, I have to point out that you just proved the very point you were arguing against, and getting offended by that he was making.

I don't disagree with that. Our schedules as independents were much harder than the Socon (from the looks of it..like you said, you had to be there, and I wasn't). I'm saying it took time to adjust to a tougher schedule.....

so you can say "look at ECU since it left the Socon, just a .500 team. The epitome of a G5 team."

On the other hand you can look at ECU once it became adjusted to playing at a higher level...we played some pretty solid teams and won our fair share. It's not like we were going .500 against today's G5 schedule.

(07-22-2014 04:44 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 04:01 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  We cannot rename our university and we cannot just make up something. Wouldn't make much sense.

Well, Charlotte, UL-L, and Buffalo pretty much did

They renamed the athletic names, despite the school name not changing. Some of the California branch schools do that as well. There are probably a few more, I just can't think of them right now.

Not suggesting it should be done (I think name recognition is good) . Just pointing out it has been done

Well Buffalo had a big advantage. There is no New York State University for us to fight with. The other advantage is that the official name of our school it

"The State University of New York at Buffalo". Being called UB or Buffalo is a tradition that dates back to when we were a private school until the 60's.

ECU has two schools with "North Carolina" in the name and their official name is "East Carolina University"...

Then there is the issue of ECU already having success with their current brand.

You guys I really wish you would've kept this on the AAC board mainly because I think you know all of the answers you're referencing you. You're doing 2 things by making a thread: 1) you're trying to find people to say "YEAH ECU TO THE BigSouthPacEasternACC1210Conference TOMORROW!" and/or 2) literally picking a fight with people that aren't looking for one and don't care. This makes our fanbase look so...well, you know. And we all know that we would look so much better without threads, especially considering there's just as much of a chance that we are instrumental in the AAC becoming a 6th power conference in the next 10-15 years as there is for us to end up in a P5. We are, realistically and because of the circumstances that mostly include timing, where we should be. And I'm one to fight for us to the death just like the rest.