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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #61
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 06:30 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:50 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:08 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Gaba has updated his estimates so I thought I'd post what we are looking at as far as exchange signups and overall ACA insurance numbers. It is interesting as well that he estimates about 200,000 a month are signing up now as a result of qualifying life changing events, with probably about the same number going off each month for opposite reason.

Est. Exch. QHPs as of June 10, 2014: 7.50M (Paid) / 8.40M (Total)

Estimated Total, all sources: (17.8 M - 28.2 M)

Individual QHP Range: (9.7M - 16.4M) • Medicaid/CHIP (6.3M - 8.5M)

ESIs (154K confirmed; up to 8M more possible) • Sub26ers (1.63M - 3.13M)
http://acasignups.net/



Ok, so just who is this guy that purports to have numbers on the ACA? Because I see a huge "doesn't pass the smell test" in his numbers. I'm in the insurance business, and if you are trying to say that 7.5m out of 8.4m policies that are not linked to an employer are paid up to date, that is simply unrealistic. A knowledgable person on insurance would know this.

Now, if you are telling me that the these numbers are mostly made up of people who are nearly or wholly subsidized, then that is believable. It also means that we will soon see bailouts for the insurance companies.

So, if everything is as rosey as this phantom website purports it to be, then we shouldn't see any bailouts. Funny thing, Obama just clarified a piece of the ACA to allow just that.

Therefore, these numbers are bull****.

If you visit his website you can find answers to all your questions.

No, I can't. His website seems to be nothing more than a series of blog postings, pushing of unaudited hear say, and an attempt to be given money. Where on his site does he say where he gets his audited numbers from?

I'm sure you are much more internet literate than I am. Try clicking on those tabs at the top. It is all there.
06-15-2014 06:54 PM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:23 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:17 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 04:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-14-2014 07:56 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  So try stating your concerns without attacking someone that you disagree with. I've pretty much posted information about people signing up, qualifying for Medicaid, percents of people without insurance and other things related to the ACA. I haven't spent much space on the ideological, constitutional, political aspects. The fact is that the law is in place and we are moving forward despite the differences we have. Doesn't it make sense, isn't there a place for, a nuts and bolts discussion without coming at me with your claws out?


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

I can explain it to you, and I have,,, but I can't understand it for you.

'Qualifying for Medicaid' is actually a meaningless term. Hospitals can't deny you services and there were all sorts of Medicaid funded 'free' clinics... all this does is allow you somewhat greater choice in places to go... which is good for you, but since there aren't exactly a bunch of docs out there struggling to fill their waiting rooms, much like the income redistribution noted by others whose premiums went up and/or coverage went down to offset those whose premiums went down and/or coverage went up... this is merely a redistribution of the existing amount of care.... and we already had a shortage, so while there are anecdotal instances of 'success', they are mere reallocations.

My hospitals and clinics serve a population where only 30% of people have private insurance... and over 80% of the 'new enrollees' in Obamacare are merely people who previously would have been submitted by the hospital to Medicaid are now counted among your 'new enrolees'. Now I'm not saying my experience is widespread, but it is just as true as the anecdotes that you tout as 'successes'. Once again, this is merely a redistribution of the existing healthcare assets. Of course there are more FINANCIAL assets now to distribute, because there is been a MASSIVE tax increase on the way (by design... this is not a 'fear'). The funds are being spent now and the taxes will be collected later.... but NONE of it is going to increase the amount of healthcare available... and few of these funds are going to the providers. WHERE DO YOU THINK ALL THIS MONEY IS GOING?? Yes, I suppose it IS now true that the unemployed person who now has 'insurance' doesn't have a $25,000 hospital bill... which is written off and thus 'paid' by the taxpayers... his bill now is only $5000 (his out of pocket max) plus a few hundred a month forever... with the difference being borne by, you guessed it... the taxpayer... only NOW by 'taxpayer' we mean anyone who makes more than about 50k and has to pay for insurance.

Once again the bottom line is that you and your 'side' is doing a very effective job of obfuscation. You've created an environment and an expectation where 'number of people signing up' is being viewed as a success...

So everyone who presents to the Hospital is counted as a 'success' of Obamacare.

You're not increasing the amount of available healthcare.

All you're doing is convincing stupid people that increasing the demand, and not supply of healthcare is your goal.

Unfortunately, the lies are far easier to sell than the truth... and you guys are winning at that.

I don't really see how you can say that qualifying for Medicaid is meaningless. Decreasing the number of people without some form of coverage, be it private or Medicaid not only improves those people's lives but it also could be the difference between the life and death of many of our rural hospitals. They constantly teeter on the financial edge while serving very high numbers of indigent patients. Reimbursements aren't equivalent to what Medicaid pays. If states like mine would approve expanded Medicaid our hospitals might have a fighting chance.

So by expanding Medicaid you are essentially advocating that taxpayers pay for your rural hospitals.

You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Typical liberal. You want other people to pay your way.
No wonder you are a watercarrier for the ACA. It is the epitome of depending on others to either outright pay for your healthcare or subsidize it.

If the jobs are gone from your area, maybe people should move to where jobs are instead of waiting for the textile industry to return?
06-15-2014 07:04 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #63
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 06:43 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:17 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I don't really see how you can say that qualifying for Medicaid is meaningless. Decreasing the number of people without some form of coverage, be it private or Medicaid not only improves those people's lives but it also could be the difference between the life and death of many of our rural hospitals. They constantly teeter on the financial edge while serving very high numbers of indigent patients. Reimbursements aren't equivalent to what Medicaid pays. If states like mine would approve expanded Medicaid our hospitals might have a fighting chance.


Geez...

Because more people having insurance doesn't create more doctors to deliver them healthcare.

Unlike any other industry, you can't simply hang a shingle and become a physician. You can't even merely graduate medical school to become a physician. You must pass a residency program... and Obamacare, despite him stating himself that we need more doctors, does not fund one single additional residency slot. More and more 'doctors' (med school graduates) are going into things like research, supplements and other things that don't require a residency and can't deliver healthcare.... because it pays better and/or has better hours... and Obamacare makes this worse, not better

There's far more to the point than this... where the reimbursement rate pushes many (the best) doctors to even further exclude these policies, but this alone should be enough to convince anyone with an open mind and any semblance of comprehension that when you're already working at capacity and you aren't increasing capacity, every person with MORE options merely reduces the options available to someone else.

I've explained this to you, and you simply ignore it... because it doesn't fit with the narrative that 'insurance' = 'healthcare'.

I understand that there is a shortage of doctors. I'm all for taking measures to encourage more to go into the field. That doesn't mean we should just stop everything until it is accomplished.
06-15-2014 07:08 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #64
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 07:04 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:23 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:17 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 04:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I can explain it to you, and I have,,, but I can't understand it for you.

'Qualifying for Medicaid' is actually a meaningless term. Hospitals can't deny you services and there were all sorts of Medicaid funded 'free' clinics... all this does is allow you somewhat greater choice in places to go... which is good for you, but since there aren't exactly a bunch of docs out there struggling to fill their waiting rooms, much like the income redistribution noted by others whose premiums went up and/or coverage went down to offset those whose premiums went down and/or coverage went up... this is merely a redistribution of the existing amount of care.... and we already had a shortage, so while there are anecdotal instances of 'success', they are mere reallocations.

My hospitals and clinics serve a population where only 30% of people have private insurance... and over 80% of the 'new enrollees' in Obamacare are merely people who previously would have been submitted by the hospital to Medicaid are now counted among your 'new enrolees'. Now I'm not saying my experience is widespread, but it is just as true as the anecdotes that you tout as 'successes'. Once again, this is merely a redistribution of the existing healthcare assets. Of course there are more FINANCIAL assets now to distribute, because there is been a MASSIVE tax increase on the way (by design... this is not a 'fear'). The funds are being spent now and the taxes will be collected later.... but NONE of it is going to increase the amount of healthcare available... and few of these funds are going to the providers. WHERE DO YOU THINK ALL THIS MONEY IS GOING?? Yes, I suppose it IS now true that the unemployed person who now has 'insurance' doesn't have a $25,000 hospital bill... which is written off and thus 'paid' by the taxpayers... his bill now is only $5000 (his out of pocket max) plus a few hundred a month forever... with the difference being borne by, you guessed it... the taxpayer... only NOW by 'taxpayer' we mean anyone who makes more than about 50k and has to pay for insurance.

Once again the bottom line is that you and your 'side' is doing a very effective job of obfuscation. You've created an environment and an expectation where 'number of people signing up' is being viewed as a success...

So everyone who presents to the Hospital is counted as a 'success' of Obamacare.

You're not increasing the amount of available healthcare.

All you're doing is convincing stupid people that increasing the demand, and not supply of healthcare is your goal.

Unfortunately, the lies are far easier to sell than the truth... and you guys are winning at that.

I don't really see how you can say that qualifying for Medicaid is meaningless. Decreasing the number of people without some form of coverage, be it private or Medicaid not only improves those people's lives but it also could be the difference between the life and death of many of our rural hospitals. They constantly teeter on the financial edge while serving very high numbers of indigent patients. Reimbursements aren't equivalent to what Medicaid pays. If states like mine would approve expanded Medicaid our hospitals might have a fighting chance.

So by expanding Medicaid you are essentially advocating that taxpayers pay for your rural hospitals.

You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Typical liberal. You want other people to pay your way.
No wonder you are a watercarrier for the ACA. It is the epitome of depending on others to either outright pay for your healthcare or subsidize it.

If the jobs are gone from your area, maybe people should move to where jobs are instead of waiting for the textile industry to return?

I'm more of a moderate pragmatist, but whatever.

Can you possibly grasp just how dependent everyone in the country is on each other, and the local, state and federal government?

Oh and The folks don't move they just drive an hour to work.
06-15-2014 07:21 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #65
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 06:54 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:30 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:50 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:08 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Gaba has updated his estimates so I thought I'd post what we are looking at as far as exchange signups and overall ACA insurance numbers. It is interesting as well that he estimates about 200,000 a month are signing up now as a result of qualifying life changing events, with probably about the same number going off each month for opposite reason.

Est. Exch. QHPs as of June 10, 2014: 7.50M (Paid) / 8.40M (Total)

Estimated Total, all sources: (17.8 M - 28.2 M)

Individual QHP Range: (9.7M - 16.4M) • Medicaid/CHIP (6.3M - 8.5M)

ESIs (154K confirmed; up to 8M more possible) • Sub26ers (1.63M - 3.13M)
http://acasignups.net/



Ok, so just who is this guy that purports to have numbers on the ACA? Because I see a huge "doesn't pass the smell test" in his numbers. I'm in the insurance business, and if you are trying to say that 7.5m out of 8.4m policies that are not linked to an employer are paid up to date, that is simply unrealistic. A knowledgable person on insurance would know this.

Now, if you are telling me that the these numbers are mostly made up of people who are nearly or wholly subsidized, then that is believable. It also means that we will soon see bailouts for the insurance companies.

So, if everything is as rosey as this phantom website purports it to be, then we shouldn't see any bailouts. Funny thing, Obama just clarified a piece of the ACA to allow just that.

Therefore, these numbers are bull****.

If you visit his website you can find answers to all your questions.

No, I can't. His website seems to be nothing more than a series of blog postings, pushing of unaudited hear say, and an attempt to be given money. Where on his site does he say where he gets his audited numbers from?

I'm sure you are much more internet literate than I am. Try clicking on those tabs at the top. It is all there.
Probably so, but still, I see no references cited to the data. Every chart I see lists the website owner as the reference. If you can so easily locate it, just pop the link in a response.
06-15-2014 07:57 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #66
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 07:57 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:54 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:30 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:50 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:08 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Ok, so just who is this guy that purports to have numbers on the ACA? Because I see a huge "doesn't pass the smell test" in his numbers. I'm in the insurance business, and if you are trying to say that 7.5m out of 8.4m policies that are not linked to an employer are paid up to date, that is simply unrealistic. A knowledgable person on insurance would know this.

Now, if you are telling me that the these numbers are mostly made up of people who are nearly or wholly subsidized, then that is believable. It also means that we will soon see bailouts for the insurance companies.

So, if everything is as rosey as this phantom website purports it to be, then we shouldn't see any bailouts. Funny thing, Obama just clarified a piece of the ACA to allow just that.

Therefore, these numbers are bull****.

If you visit his website you can find answers to all your questions.

No, I can't. His website seems to be nothing more than a series of blog postings, pushing of unaudited hear say, and an attempt to be given money. Where on his site does he say where he gets his audited numbers from?

I'm sure you are much more internet literate than I am. Try clicking on those tabs at the top. It is all there.
Probably so, but still, I see no references cited to the data. Every chart I see lists the website owner as the reference. If you can so easily locate it, just pop the link in a response.
http://acasignups.net/faq

Quote:Does your data have a liberal bias, then?
Well, first of all, the ACA--or at least, the Private Exchange Enrollments portion of it--is hardly a "liberal" law. It requires millions of people to agree to pay private, for-profit corporations potentially billions of dollars each year, which isn't exactly part of the "progressive" political philosophy.

Having said that, my data comes from a variety of sources, including the HHS, the State-Run Exchange press releases and news outlets ranging from small local newspapers to major national news outlets. I do not guarantee that any of their data is accurate, but I do guarantee that any of their data that I enter into the spreadsheet is as accurate as I can make it given my limited time and resources. Occasionally I may make an honest mistake; when this happens, I attempt to correct it as quickly as possible and will also post an explanation of what happened in the blog as appropriate (see The Mystery of the Vanishing Minnesota Data for a case study).

Is it possible that some of the numbers provided by the HHS, local news outlets or national news outlets is erroneous? Of course. If so, is this deliberate on their part? Anything's possible, but I doubt it. We're all human; reporters make mistakes; editors make mistakes; government employees make mistakes and I make mistakes. All I can say is that I'm doing the best I can to keep the data on this site as accurate as I can, and I promise to make corrections (with notifications of those corrections as appropriate) as quickly as I can if they happen.
06-15-2014 08:11 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #67
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 08:11 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:57 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:54 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:30 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 05:50 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  If you visit his website you can find answers to all your questions.

No, I can't. His website seems to be nothing more than a series of blog postings, pushing of unaudited hear say, and an attempt to be given money. Where on his site does he say where he gets his audited numbers from?

I'm sure you are much more internet literate than I am. Try clicking on those tabs at the top. It is all there.
Probably so, but still, I see no references cited to the data. Every chart I see lists the website owner as the reference. If you can so easily locate it, just pop the link in a response.
http://acasignups.net/faq

Quote:Does your data have a liberal bias, then?
Well, first of all, the ACA--or at least, the Private Exchange Enrollments portion of it--is hardly a "liberal" law. It requires millions of people to agree to pay private, for-profit corporations potentially billions of dollars each year, which isn't exactly part of the "progressive" political philosophy.

Having said that, my data comes from a variety of sources, including the HHS, the State-Run Exchange press releases and news outlets ranging from small local newspapers to major national news outlets. I do not guarantee that any of their data is accurate, but I do guarantee that any of their data that I enter into the spreadsheet is as accurate as I can make it given my limited time and resources. Occasionally I may make an honest mistake; when this happens, I attempt to correct it as quickly as possible and will also post an explanation of what happened in the blog as appropriate (see The Mystery of the Vanishing Minnesota Data for a case study).

Is it possible that some of the numbers provided by the HHS, local news outlets or national news outlets is erroneous? Of course. If so, is this deliberate on their part? Anything's possible, but I doubt it. We're all human; reporters make mistakes; editors make mistakes; government employees make mistakes and I make mistakes. All I can say is that I'm doing the best I can to keep the data on this site as accurate as I can, and I promise to make corrections (with notifications of those corrections as appropriate) as quickly as I can if they happen.

Thanks. A cited reference to data should be done with the data, and not buried inthe FAQ.


Also, HHS has not, as far as I am aware, released any true data backing up the number of payments made into the federal exchanged. A speech is not audited data.

I'll say it once again; if the enrollment numbers are so good, there will be no need for an insurance bailout. And if the payment numbers were so good, the whitehouse would be pimping them 24/7. The reason they do not want to release the granular data is because it likely shows most of the paid policies are partially to completely subsidized.
(This post was last modified: 06-15-2014 08:34 PM by UofMstateU.)
06-15-2014 08:33 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #68
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 08:33 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 08:11 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:57 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:54 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:30 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  No, I can't. His website seems to be nothing more than a series of blog postings, pushing of unaudited hear say, and an attempt to be given money. Where on his site does he say where he gets his audited numbers from?

I'm sure you are much more internet literate than I am. Try clicking on those tabs at the top. It is all there.
Probably so, but still, I see no references cited to the data. Every chart I see lists the website owner as the reference. If you can so easily locate it, just pop the link in a response.
http://acasignups.net/faq

Quote:Does your data have a liberal bias, then?
Well, first of all, the ACA--or at least, the Private Exchange Enrollments portion of it--is hardly a "liberal" law. It requires millions of people to agree to pay private, for-profit corporations potentially billions of dollars each year, which isn't exactly part of the "progressive" political philosophy.

Having said that, my data comes from a variety of sources, including the HHS, the State-Run Exchange press releases and news outlets ranging from small local newspapers to major national news outlets. I do not guarantee that any of their data is accurate, but I do guarantee that any of their data that I enter into the spreadsheet is as accurate as I can make it given my limited time and resources. Occasionally I may make an honest mistake; when this happens, I attempt to correct it as quickly as possible and will also post an explanation of what happened in the blog as appropriate (see The Mystery of the Vanishing Minnesota Data for a case study).

Is it possible that some of the numbers provided by the HHS, local news outlets or national news outlets is erroneous? Of course. If so, is this deliberate on their part? Anything's possible, but I doubt it. We're all human; reporters make mistakes; editors make mistakes; government employees make mistakes and I make mistakes. All I can say is that I'm doing the best I can to keep the data on this site as accurate as I can, and I promise to make corrections (with notifications of those corrections as appropriate) as quickly as I can if they happen.

Thanks. A cited reference to data should be done with the data, and not buried inthe FAQ.


Also, HHS has not, as far as I am aware, released any true data backing up the number of payments made into the federal exchanged. A speech is not audited data.

I'll say it once again; if the enrollment numbers are so good, there will be no need for an insurance bailout. And if the payment numbers were so good, the whitehouse would be pimping them 24/7. The reason they do not want to release the granular data is because it likely shows most of the paid policies are partially to completely subsidized.

No payments are made into the federal exchange. Once someone signs up with a private insurance company through the exchange they get a bill from the company. So HHS would not have that data. That has to come from the insurance companies. Most of the policies (aprox. 85%) purchased through the exchanges are getting a subsidy.
That doesn't seem to be anything the feds or anyone else is trying to hide.
06-15-2014 09:15 PM
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EagleX Offline
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Post: #69
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 08:33 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 08:11 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:57 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:54 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:30 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  No, I can't. His website seems to be nothing more than a series of blog postings, pushing of unaudited hear say, and an attempt to be given money. Where on his site does he say where he gets his audited numbers from?

I'm sure you are much more internet literate than I am. Try clicking on those tabs at the top. It is all there.
Probably so, but still, I see no references cited to the data. Every chart I see lists the website owner as the reference. If you can so easily locate it, just pop the link in a response.
http://acasignups.net/faq

Quote:Does your data have a liberal bias, then?
Well, first of all, the ACA--or at least, the Private Exchange Enrollments portion of it--is hardly a "liberal" law. It requires millions of people to agree to pay private, for-profit corporations potentially billions of dollars each year, which isn't exactly part of the "progressive" political philosophy.

Having said that, my data comes from a variety of sources, including the HHS, the State-Run Exchange press releases and news outlets ranging from small local newspapers to major national news outlets. I do not guarantee that any of their data is accurate, but I do guarantee that any of their data that I enter into the spreadsheet is as accurate as I can make it given my limited time and resources. Occasionally I may make an honest mistake; when this happens, I attempt to correct it as quickly as possible and will also post an explanation of what happened in the blog as appropriate (see The Mystery of the Vanishing Minnesota Data for a case study).

Is it possible that some of the numbers provided by the HHS, local news outlets or national news outlets is erroneous? Of course. If so, is this deliberate on their part? Anything's possible, but I doubt it. We're all human; reporters make mistakes; editors make mistakes; government employees make mistakes and I make mistakes. All I can say is that I'm doing the best I can to keep the data on this site as accurate as I can, and I promise to make corrections (with notifications of those corrections as appropriate) as quickly as I can if they happen.

Thanks. A cited reference to data should be done with the data, and not buried inthe FAQ.


Also, HHS has not, as far as I am aware, released any true data backing up the number of payments made into the federal exchanged. A speech is not audited data.

I'll say it once again; if the enrollment numbers are so good, there will be no need for an insurance bailout. And if the payment numbers were so good, the whitehouse would be pimping them 24/7. The reason they do not want to release the granular data is because it likely shows most of the paid policies are partially to completely subsidized.

there may not be a bailout. BHO may just let the insurance industry collapse. he's willing to destroy a good portion of the economy because the bastards in the insurance companies are the guys that killed his mommy.
06-15-2014 09:18 PM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #70
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 07:21 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:04 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:23 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:17 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I don't really see how you can say that qualifying for Medicaid is meaningless. Decreasing the number of people without some form of coverage, be it private or Medicaid not only improves those people's lives but it also could be the difference between the life and death of many of our rural hospitals. They constantly teeter on the financial edge while serving very high numbers of indigent patients. Reimbursements aren't equivalent to what Medicaid pays. If states like mine would approve expanded Medicaid our hospitals might have a fighting chance.

So by expanding Medicaid you are essentially advocating that taxpayers pay for your rural hospitals.

You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Typical liberal. You want other people to pay your way.
No wonder you are a watercarrier for the ACA. It is the epitome of depending on others to either outright pay for your healthcare or subsidize it.

If the jobs are gone from your area, maybe people should move to where jobs are instead of waiting for the textile industry to return?

I'm more of a moderate pragmatist, but whatever.

Can you possibly grasp just how dependent everyone in the country is on each other, and the local, state and federal government?

Oh and The folks don't move they just drive an hour to work.


It is not my responsibility to make sure someone has a short commute to work. They are choosing to live in rural areas farther away from jobs. If that means they drive an hour so be it. They could move closer to work. They are choosing to not do so.

Given your little statement about our dependency on each other and dependency on the government, it is no wonder you are all in for the ACA. Bet you believe it takes a village too.

And you want the village to foot the bill.
06-15-2014 09:38 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #71
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 09:38 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:21 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:04 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:23 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  So by expanding Medicaid you are essentially advocating that taxpayers pay for your rural hospitals.

You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Typical liberal. You want other people to pay your way.
No wonder you are a watercarrier for the ACA. It is the epitome of depending on others to either outright pay for your healthcare or subsidize it.

If the jobs are gone from your area, maybe people should move to where jobs are instead of waiting for the textile industry to return?

I'm more of a moderate pragmatist, but whatever.

Can you possibly grasp just how dependent everyone in the country is on each other, and the local, state and federal government?

Oh and The folks don't move they just drive an hour to work.


It is not my responsibility to make sure someone has a short commute to work. They are choosing to live in rural areas farther away from jobs. If that means they drive an hour so be it. They could move closer to work. They are choosing to not do so.

Given your little statement about our dependency on each other and dependency on the government, it is no wonder you are all in for the ACA. Bet you believe it takes a village too.

And you want the village to foot the bill.

Life is a little more complicated than you seem to be trying to make it. Nobody in a modern industrialized country is self-sufficient. We are all in this together.
06-15-2014 09:53 PM
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QuestionSocratic Offline
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Post: #72
RE: ACA Numbers
Quote:The Obama administration is contacting hundreds of thousands of people with subsidized health insurance to resolve questions about their eligibility, as consumer advocates express concern that many will be required to repay some or all of the subsidies.

Of the eight million people who signed up for private health plans through insurance exchanges under the new health care law, two million reported personal information that differed from data in government records,

I get a kick out of the concern consumer advocates have for the people that may have fraudulently signed up, as we again see the mentality of liberals demonstrated in their most misplaced belief of "fairness."

Link to New York Times
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2014 08:12 AM by QuestionSocratic.)
06-16-2014 07:41 AM
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EagleX Offline
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Post: #73
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 09:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 09:38 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:21 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 07:04 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Typical liberal. You want other people to pay your way.
No wonder you are a watercarrier for the ACA. It is the epitome of depending on others to either outright pay for your healthcare or subsidize it.

If the jobs are gone from your area, maybe people should move to where jobs are instead of waiting for the textile industry to return?

I'm more of a moderate pragmatist, but whatever.

Can you possibly grasp just how dependent everyone in the country is on each other, and the local, state and federal government?

Oh and The folks don't move they just drive an hour to work.


It is not my responsibility to make sure someone has a short commute to work. They are choosing to live in rural areas farther away from jobs. If that means they drive an hour so be it. They could move closer to work. They are choosing to not do so.

Given your little statement about our dependency on each other and dependency on the government, it is no wonder you are all in for the ACA. Bet you believe it takes a village too.

And you want the village to foot the bill.

Life is a little more complicated than you seem to be trying to make it. Nobody in a modern industrialized country is self-sufficient. We are all in this together.

we, the people <> government, and that's the whole problem. government is not our "friend", and you fundamentally misunderstand the beast if that is what you think government is. where government is involved, individual liberties become more restricted.

my friend cannot confiscate my income, or send me to prison, or draft me into the army and send me to war.

government is also not our family -- which, in a real head splitter of an analogy, would make BHO our daddy. people make that mistake all the time, too.

it's the first step down a long path of unreason.
06-16-2014 08:05 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Then you don't want Obamacare because it makes rural healthcare worse, not better. How do I know? Because I am an administrator at 3 rural healthcare facilities. We've lost 4 local primary care physicians recently (old age/retirement/illness) and are down to 2 private doc groups and about a dozen rural health "free' clinics. We cannot attract new private PCPs, because they are going to the cities where there is more private insurance per capita because private insurance pays better... and only the clinics can hire new docs because they are essentially exempt from mal-practice... Of course, that also means that many of these docs wouldn't be able to GET mal-practice insurance... which tells you about their history. So the fact that these people now have insurance makes absolutely no difference because although they theoretically have more choices now, in reality, they have no additional choices.

Like most government and particularly democratic programs, Obamacare makes care in the highly populated areas better at the expense of more rural care. When your local hospital closes or reduces services and you now have to go to one 15 miles away for care, you can thank Obamacare. DMC San Pablo in the Bay Area is an example of Obamacare making a bad situation worse as a result of this consolidation, even in a highly populated area.

(06-15-2014 07:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I understand that there is a shortage of doctors. I'm all for taking measures to encourage more to go into the field. That doesn't mean we should just stop everything until it is accomplished.

Then why are you touting the success of Obamacare when it does absolutely NOTHING to address these needs? You can fix the problem of 'insurance' very quickly. Addressing the doctor shortage will take a decade or more.... so why are you content with them kicking the problem down the road for another decade?

The 'need' Obamacare addresses would actually be far less if they had STARTED by addressing the shortages.

Why don't many doctors take Medicare or Medicaid now? Because they can keep their waiting rooms full without it. What if there were more doctors and they couldn't? They'd take them. Pretty simple. Sure, you'd want to address a few of the needs that Obamacare addresses...

but 'signing people up' for 'free' care is not in ANY way a measure of success... except as defined by the administration and touted by pawns like you.

This is honestly like putting forth a plan to make Americans more healthy by giving away workout t-shirts in front of the grocery store, and counting the number of t-shirts you hand out as a measure of success. Isn't counting the number of people who ACTUALLY WORK OUT AT THE GYM or LOSE WEIGHT a better measure of the success of the plan?
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2014 12:56 PM by Hambone10.)
06-16-2014 12:53 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #75
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-16-2014 12:53 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Then you don't want Obamacare because it makes rural healthcare worse, not better. How do I know? Because I am an administrator at 3 rural healthcare facilities. We've lost 4 local primary care physicians recently (old age/retirement/illness) and are down to 2 private doc groups and about a dozen rural health "free' clinics. We cannot attract new private PCPs, because they are going to the cities where there is more private insurance per capita because private insurance pays better... and only the clinics can hire new docs because they are essentially exempt from mal-practice... Of course, that also means that many of these docs wouldn't be able to GET mal-practice insurance... which tells you about their history. So the fact that these people now have insurance makes absolutely no difference because although they theoretically have more choices now, in reality, they have no additional choices.

Like most government and particularly democratic programs, Obamacare makes care in the highly populated areas better at the expense of more rural care. When your local hospital closes or reduces services and you now have to go to one 15 miles away for care, you can thank Obamacare. DMC San Pablo in the Bay Area is an example of Obamacare making a bad situation worse as a result of this consolidation, even in a highly populated area.

(06-15-2014 07:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I understand that there is a shortage of doctors. I'm all for taking measures to encourage more to go into the field. That doesn't mean we should just stop everything until it is accomplished.

Then why are you touting the success of Obamacare when it does absolutely NOTHING to address these needs? You can fix the problem of 'insurance' very quickly. Addressing the doctor shortage will take a decade or more.... so why are you content with them kicking the problem down the road for another decade?

The 'need' Obamacare addresses would actually be far less if they had STARTED by addressing the shortages.

Why don't many doctors take Medicare or Medicaid now? Because they can keep their waiting rooms full without it. What if there were more doctors and they couldn't? They'd take them. Pretty simple. Sure, you'd want to address a few of the needs that Obamacare addresses...

but 'signing people up' for 'free' care is not in ANY way a measure of success... except as defined by the administration and touted by pawns like you.

This is honestly like putting forth a plan to make Americans more healthy by giving away workout t-shirts in front of the grocery store, and counting the number of t-shirts you hand out as a measure of success. Isn't counting the number of people who ACTUALLY WORK OUT AT THE GYM or LOSE WEIGHT a better measure of the success of the plan?

The problems you are talking about were problems long before 2014. There has been a rural doctor shortage for a long, long time. Doctors limiting the number of Medicaid and Medicare patients has been an issue for a long, long time. Congress needs to stop kicking the "Doc Fix" problem down the road each year and make reimbursements more reasonable.

Has your state expanded Medicaid?
06-16-2014 07:33 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-16-2014 07:33 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  The problems you are talking about were problems long before 2014.
So what? Obama had carte Blanche to solve the problem and he didn't even attempt to address these problems. Instead, the ONLY problem he addressed was to re-shuffle the money and implement a massive tax increase. FTR, Obamacare was passed 6 years ago. in other words, the problems that existed long before 2014 still exist and will still exist many years going forward.

So why are you celebrating the 'success' of Obamacare?

Quote:There has been a rural doctor shortage for a long, long time. Doctors limiting the number of Medicaid and Medicare patients has been an issue for a long, long time. Congress needs to stop kicking the "Doc Fix" problem down the road each year and make reimbursements more reasonable.

Wow... Absolute spin and borderline lies. Obamacare was supposed to fix these problems, and it has instead made it worse....

Let's not forget that we're paying around a trillion dollars more per year to NOT fix these problems...

And Obamacare AND THE DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED CONGRESS, SPECIFICALLY reduced reimbursement for primary care.

That was a major component of Obamacare... They reduced reimbursement rates for primary care in order to be able to 'sign more people up'... and here you are, carrying water for them and this decision... You support the success of their sign-ups that came at the expense of doctor reimbursement... and while you celebrate the meaningless sign-ups, you blame EVERYONE BUT the administration for exactly what Obamacare (by design) did.

Quote:Has your state expanded Medicaid?

The state Im working in is California... I was brought here from Texas, so what do you think? and DMC San Pablo is in the district of one of the primary architects of Obamacare.
06-16-2014 10:27 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #77
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-16-2014 12:53 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 06:49 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  You might put it that way.

I think it is a good investment both for the local economy and community health. Now that the textile mills have all shutdown our hospital system is our largest private employer. I also kind of liked the fact that when my Father-in-law had his stroke he was half a mile from emergency care as opposed to the 30-45 miles he would have been had our rural hospital not been there. Then there was my old friend David's 79 year old mother that was hit head on. I don't know if she would have survived had the hospital not been there.

Then you don't want Obamacare because it makes rural healthcare worse, not better. How do I know? Because I am an administrator at 3 rural healthcare facilities. We've lost 4 local primary care physicians recently (old age/retirement/illness) and are down to 2 private doc groups and about a dozen rural health "free' clinics. We cannot attract new private PCPs, because they are going to the cities where there is more private insurance per capita because private insurance pays better... and only the clinics can hire new docs because they are essentially exempt from mal-practice... Of course, that also means that many of these docs wouldn't be able to GET mal-practice insurance... which tells you about their history. So the fact that these people now have insurance makes absolutely no difference because although they theoretically have more choices now, in reality, they have no additional choices.

Like most government and particularly democratic programs, Obamacare makes care in the highly populated areas better at the expense of more rural care. When your local hospital closes or reduces services and you now have to go to one 15 miles away for care, you can thank Obamacare. DMC San Pablo in the Bay Area is an example of Obamacare making a bad situation worse as a result of this consolidation, even in a highly populated area.

(06-15-2014 07:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I understand that there is a shortage of doctors. I'm all for taking measures to encourage more to go into the field. That doesn't mean we should just stop everything until it is accomplished.

Then why are you touting the success of Obamacare when it does absolutely NOTHING to address these needs? You can fix the problem of 'insurance' very quickly. Addressing the doctor shortage will take a decade or more.... so why are you content with them kicking the problem down the road for another decade?

The 'need' Obamacare addresses would actually be far less if they had STARTED by addressing the shortages.

Why don't many doctors take Medicare or Medicaid now? Because they can keep their waiting rooms full without it. What if there were more doctors and they couldn't? They'd take them. Pretty simple. Sure, you'd want to address a few of the needs that Obamacare addresses...

but 'signing people up' for 'free' care is not in ANY way a measure of success... except as defined by the administration and touted by pawns like you.

This is honestly like putting forth a plan to make Americans more healthy by giving away workout t-shirts in front of the grocery store, and counting the number of t-shirts you hand out as a measure of success. Isn't counting the number of people who ACTUALLY WORK OUT AT THE GYM or LOSE WEIGHT a better measure of the success of the plan?

I think this is a really good article from Kansas about the ACA and rural health care. It seems to cover all the pros and cons in a non-bias way.
http://www.thekansan.com/article/2013123...9/?Start=1
06-17-2014 08:05 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #78
RE: ACA Numbers
Dawg... I'm reading along despite the fact that I have better things to do than read a story by someone who knows less about it than I...

Page 1
We're dying by 1000 cuts and nobody is looking at the big picture... which to me means that unlike you, they don't feel that Obamacare is moving in the right direction

also, that payments are tied to outcomes... as someone intimately involved with this, I can tell you that what you think of as good outcomes isn't what they mean. What they mean is that if an 82yr old man with a history of hypertension and CHF presents, he fits into a group of people who typically have a 3 day stay and a 75% survival rate... so if you only keep him for 2 days, send him home and he dies at home, that is considered a good outcome because he was alive and left in only 2 days.

I skipped to page 3 and they basically describe my job... so i don't really need to read any more. This is exactly what I am involved in... I have 4 facilities and we are shuffling services from one to another in an effort to reduce costs... of course, reducing costs means reducing access... by definition.

Despite the fact that all these people now have insurance, they actually have FEWER and not MORE options... and your own article agrees with this comment...

So still I ask you... Why are you such a staunch supporter of the ACA and touting this as a success??

FOr the record, the theoretical hospital in your article is 45% 'assisted'... We are more like 75% assisted. If you look up what is happening with DMC San Pablo, they were only 25% assisted, but the only hospital in the area offering assistance. With the changes in healthcare, Kaiser went on an aggressive expansion plan to poach the private pay patients from DMC. Kaiser doesn't take assistance... so DMC went from 25% to about 45% and still trending higher... and they can't cover their overhead at the lower net reimbursements.
06-17-2014 09:19 PM
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Post: #79
RE: ACA Numbers
(06-17-2014 09:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Dawg... I'm reading along despite the fact that I have better things to do than read a story by someone who knows less about it than I...

Page 1
We're dying by 1000 cuts and nobody is looking at the big picture... which to me means that unlike you, they don't feel that Obamacare is moving in the right direction

also, that payments are tied to outcomes... as someone intimately involved with this, I can tell you that what you think of as good outcomes isn't what they mean. What they mean is that if an 82yr old man with a history of hypertension and CHF presents, he fits into a group of people who typically have a 3 day stay and a 75% survival rate... so if you only keep him for 2 days, send him home and he dies at home, that is considered a good outcome because he was alive and left in only 2 days.

I skipped to page 3 and they basically describe my job... so i don't really need to read any more. This is exactly what I am involved in... I have 4 facilities and we are shuffling services from one to another in an effort to reduce costs... of course, reducing costs means reducing access... by definition.

Despite the fact that all these people now have insurance, they actually have FEWER and not MORE options... and your own article agrees with this comment...

So still I ask you... Why are you such a staunch supporter of the ACA and touting this as a success??

FOr the record, the theoretical hospital in your article is 45% 'assisted'... We are more like 75% assisted. If you look up what is happening with DMC San Pablo, they were only 25% assisted, but the only hospital in the area offering assistance. With the changes in healthcare, Kaiser went on an aggressive expansion plan to poach the private pay patients from DMC. Kaiser doesn't take assistance... so DMC went from 25% to about 45% and still trending higher... and they can't cover their overhead at the lower net reimbursements.
I posted it because it was a realistic overview of the problems particular to rural hospitals. I've never said that the ACA was the perfect solution. I've offered information to correct a lot of misinformation people have posted on this forum. You and others have interpreted this as being blind support. I just try to counter the blind opposition. There are a lot of things that need to be tweaked, altered, changed etc.

Rural health care involves different variables that hopefully will be addressed going forward. When the absolute commitment to repeal tapers off hopefully everyone can begin to work together for solutions to the areas that need change. A good start will be the expansion of Medicaid in the 24 states, including mine, that have to this point chosen not to do so. There are somewhere between 300-500 thousand working in NC that fall between the cracks.
06-18-2014 08:59 AM
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Post: #80
RE: ACA Numbers
Well I guess I was wrong. Obamacare may benefit many people. Here's a report from the LA Times:

Quote:...helped lower premiums for consumers who bought health coverage on the federal marketplaces by 76% on average, according to the new report from the Department of Health and Human Services.

Premiums that normally would have cost $346 a month on average instead cost consumers just $82...

LA Times
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2014 09:55 AM by QuestionSocratic.)
06-18-2014 09:54 AM
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