(06-13-2014 12:20 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 12:21 AM)GoApps70 Wrote:  History is an enormous subject, many facts have been lost or recorded wrong or by the victors.

There were 253 books edited out of the Bible to create the King James Bible. That includes the Book of Eve, which was removed because it might undermine the superiority of men.

The concept of whether Jesus was the father, the son and holy spirit was up for debate in the early christian councils prior to Constantine's adoption Christianity as a state religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development...ical_canon

And the concept of life after death originated with a religion that predates Christianity, one that was fairly popular around the time of the birth of Jesus.

(06-20-2014 08:44 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  And the concept of life after death originated with a religion that predates Christianity, one that was fairly popular around the time of the birth of Jesus.

What you are doing is trying to question that the Bible was the spoken word of god by questioning the resurrection. The point being if that isn't provable than than the whole premise of the the religion doesn't hold up. There is a lot more that is questionable in the Old and New Testament that is never brought up because few are even reading it.

The Bible contains a lot of philosophical lessons and is open to all believers and not just the chosen few. It had an evangelical thrust that Judaism doesn't have for example. Started focused in Palestine, Turkey and Egypt. Moved to Italy and Spain after Roman adoption. Became a dominant force in Northern European politics in the Renaissance. Migrated to America and mutated into a corporate friendly product. Its a religion with a very long and complex history.

There is so much more to Christianity as a cultural force than the mystical stories in the bible. I don't think anyone believes in Christianity on the basis of great mystical stories.

Kittonhead, I question all religions. They should be questioned daily, as should all governments.

IMO God was created by Man - IN MAN'S IMAGE. This was done to explain the unexplainable. It has since been co-opted by those who wish to control the thoughts of other men.

Sure religions have good ideas in them. But most of the greatest crimes in the history of mankind can be laid at the feet of one religion or another.

(06-21-2014 09:39 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Kittonhead, I question all religions. They should be questioned daily, as should all governments.

IMO God was created by Man - IN MAN'S IMAGE. This was done to explain the unexplainable. It has since been co-opted by those who wish to control the thoughts of other men.

Sure religions have good ideas in them. But most of the greatest crimes in the history of mankind can be laid at the feet of one religion or another.

Can you please state the 10 greatest crimes in the history of all time?

Does anything besides the Spanish Inqusition and Israel's occupation of the West Bank have a chance to make the list?

Again another myth that most wars have been driven by religion.

Try both Crusades, Nazi Germany (the swastika was a Christian symbol FYI), the Roman persecution of Christians (thrown to the lions for the entertainment of Roman citizens), the sacrifices in Burma in the name of Buddhism, the sacrifices to Kali by the Thuggees of India, the 1600s Witch Hunts in Massachussets, the Mountain Meadows massacre in 1857 Utah, Aztec sacrificial practices, the various Islamic jihads, the IRA's fight against the Ulsters, etc.

I could keep going. But you should get the idea by now, unless your head is made of stone.

(06-21-2014 11:17 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Try both Crusades, Nazi Germany (the swastika was a Christian symbol FYI), the Roman persecution of Christians (thrown to the lions for the entertainment of Roman citizens), the sacrifices in Burma in the name of Buddhism, the sacrifices to Kali by the Thuggees of India, the 1600s Witch Hunts in Massachussets, the Mountain Meadows massacre in 1857 Utah, Aztec sacrificial practices, the various Islamic jihads, the IRA's fight against the Ulsters, etc.

I could keep going. But you should get the idea by now, unless your head is made of stone.

A quick top 10 crimes against humanity list.

America nuking Japan (war crime)
9-11 World Trade Center attack (war crime)
African Transcontinental Slave Trade (economic crime)
Israeli Occupation of the West Bank (religion)
Nazi Germany (ethnic cleansing)
Mongol Golden Horde (economic crime)
Stalin Purges & Relocations (power struggle)
Rawandan Genocide (ethnic cleansing)
Spanish Inqusition (religion)
Khmer Rouge Killing Fields (power struggle)

Only 2 of the 10 greatest crimes against humanity had religion at its forefront. The majority had nothing or little to do with religion. The Crusades were Vatican inspired conquest though far from one of humanities greatest crimes. American Indian repression was sporadic, over the course of centuries and the reflection of new power realities. Its hard to classify that as a genocide as much as a culture clash. Given that billions have enjoyed their religions peacefully over the years more good than harm has been done (though there are plenty of examples of harm).

(06-21-2014 02:23 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(06-21-2014 11:17 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Try both Crusades, Nazi Germany (the swastika was a Christian symbol FYI), the Roman persecution of Christians (thrown to the lions for the entertainment of Roman citizens), the sacrifices in Burma in the name of Buddhism, the sacrifices to Kali by the Thuggees of India, the 1600s Witch Hunts in Massachussets, the Mountain Meadows massacre in 1857 Utah, Aztec sacrificial practices, the various Islamic jihads, the IRA's fight against the Ulsters, etc.

I could keep going. But you should get the idea by now, unless your head is made of stone.

A quick top 10 crimes against humanity list.

America nuking Japan (war crime)
Emperor Hirohito was considered a God King by the Japanese - in their eyes they were fighting a religious war. The nuclear attack probably saved more lives than it took. It was NOT a war crime, since it brought a swift end to what would have been a prolonged and bloody war had the US invaded Japanese soil
9-11 World Trade Center attack (war crime)
This was an attack by people who thought they were fighting a religious war, in case you missed the memo
African Transcontinental Slave Trade (economic crime)
I'll grant you this ONE. But you've proven nothing so far, except for your ignorance of the motivations of your examples. The slavers considered African slaves less than human, which is why the Three Fifths Compromise was added to the US Constitution
Israeli Occupation of the West Bank (religion)
Nazi Germany (ethnic cleansing)
The Germans were fighting a war to purify the human race, based on their misguided interpretations of Biblical teachings - a religious motivation
Mongol Golden Horde (economic crime) They were fighting for their religion, although since it wasn't a major religion I can understand your mistake here. To the Mongols city living was an abomination, against the will of their Gods
Stalin Purges & Relocations (power struggle)
The Russian version of communism was a sort of religion in itself, even if God wasn't part of the equation. BTW the first people in Russia that were persecuted were those who refused to give up their religion, mainly Russian Orthodox
Rawandan Genocide (ethnic cleansing) There was a difference of belief between the 2 sides, which makes it a war about religious differences
Spanish Inqusition (religion)
Khmer Rouge Killing Fields (power struggle)
They were mainly murdering Buddhists, trying to eliminate all religions in the region, which makes it about religion

Only 2 of the 10 greatest crimes against humanity had religion at its forefront. The majority had nothing or little to do with religion. The Crusades were Vatican inspired conquest though far from one of humanities greatest crimes. American Indian repression was sporadic, over the course of centuries and the reflection of new power realities. Its hard to classify that as a genocide as much as a culture clash. Given that billions have enjoyed their religions peacefully over the years more good than harm has been done (though there are plenty of examples of harm).

You need to read up a bit more. You have ignored the religious aspects of most of your examples. Even if the crime is an effort to kill a religion, and the people who follow it, the crime is about religion. Only ONE of the examples you listed isn't attributable to religion in one way or another.

For a crime to be about religion it has to be DIRECTLY about a religious difference.

Both sides need religion to be a focal point. Having the Nazi's who philosophy was based on eugenics exterminate a jewish population has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with racism.

Racism and ethnic cleansing is more of a causality to strife than religion per se. Religion has been used as another cultural marker like the racism as it is in the Northen Ireland/IRA conflict but even there it comes fundamentally down to two ethnic groups.

Religion was also used as "soft power" by the West for their far flung colonies to become more accepting of their culture. Christianize the Indians or the Africans ect. It can be part of the oppressive package.

I would argue that the inhumane tactics of Stalin, Khmer Rouge and Gehngis Khan had to do with not having a humanitarian religion at the core of its society while say in America it was always part of the social fabric.

This nitpicking is beneath you, dude. Any religious aspect makes it about religion, even if the purpose is to eliminate religion. And trying to pick and choose which religions are worth discussing is juvenile. Whether the religion has any redeeming aspects or not, it's still a religion.

Just admit you were wrong and move on.

I know its leaning conspiracy theory-ish, but did anyone catch that rumored false flag that Turkey was planning a while ago? That would have changed the complexion of the Syria situation quite a bit.