(04-23-2014 04:11 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 03:49 PM)WPDAWG08 Wrote:  You missed my point Dixie and Ark30s as well. I think the European model of allowing drinking in moderation from a younger age and overall education/respect for the substance is much more effective than an arbitrary law that is not really followed anyway. One approach is easy to grasp in that it is just a classic ban which rarely works and the other is truly understanding the issue at hand and trying to make people have a more responsible attitude from a young age.

Then we face this:

The honest kids wait for 21 or drink behind closed doors while the others don't. Once the age is lowered, we face the risk of those honest kids making alcoholically stupid decisions.

The "honest kids" are likely fgts anyway or at least that was my experience in HS.

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving clemency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.

I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

(04-23-2014 04:16 PM)WPDAWG08 Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:11 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 03:49 PM)WPDAWG08 Wrote:  You missed my point Dixie and Ark30s as well. I think the European model of allowing drinking in moderation from a younger age and overall education/respect for the substance is much more effective than an arbitrary law that is not really followed anyway. One approach is easy to grasp in that it is just a classic ban which rarely works and the other is truly understanding the issue at hand and trying to make people have a more responsible attitude from a young age.

Then we face this:

The honest kids wait for 21 or drink behind closed doors while the others don't. Once the age is lowered, we face the risk of those honest kids making alcoholically stupid decisions.

The "honest kids" are likely fgts anyway or at least that was my experience in HS.

Change it to responsible then. When you can go down the street and buy it, you can get as much as you want, and you can get drunk and make stupid decisions. Plus I don't think Lazy Tom is honest...

If you liked meth and did it every so often, if it suddenly became something you could buy over the counter, wouldn't you be buying more?

I personally think this is a greedy move to bring in more tax dollars. So what's next? What can we make legal or easier to buy next so that we can tax even more things?

(04-23-2014 04:20 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving clemency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.

I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

Youngsters wanna be the parents these days. My ex GF's son is 19 and got "YEE YEE" tattooed on his chest. He'll regret that decision in a year or two. Or that sleeve he just got finished on his arm when he's 25 and wants to get a high class job. It's no secret that young people make dumb decisions. I've made my fair share at a young age as well.

(04-23-2014 04:20 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving clemency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.

I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

I think it is a lot of that, and you are right on many fronts, but I also think it has to do with these messages being injected from the top. I think there are gains involved for our govt to keep people dependent on chemicals. It helps keep people dependent on the govt. I think it strips away their liberties and destroys their will to think for themselves. Tyrannically govt structures operate more easily in chaotic societies. I think drugs help keep populations from rising up and dependent. Almost like a widespread sedation. What a better way to keep the People distracted than medicating them. It allows for the real change to occur, undisputed.

I hate to say it, but I think the legalize drugs crowd has been tricked into fighting their cause. You hear them talk about liberties and freedoms, but what is really happening is they are helping us all become less free. They are stripping us all from a happy and productive society.

There is nothing free about being addicted to a chemical. Anyone who has experienced it first hand knows the meaning of the term "monkey on my back."

(04-23-2014 04:31 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:20 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving leniency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.
I
I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

I think it is a lot of that, and you are right on many fronts, but I also think it has to do with these messages being injected from the top. I think there are gains involved for our govt to keep people dependent on chemicals. It helps keep people dependent on the govt. I think it strips away their liberties and destroys their will to think for themselves. Tyrannically govt structures operate more easily in chaotic societies. I think drugs help keep populations from rising up and dependent. Almost like a widespread sedation. What a better way to keep the People distracted than medicating them. It allows for the real change to occur, undisputed.

I hate to say it, but I think the legalize drugs crowd has been tricked into fighting their cause. You hear them talk about liberties and freedoms, but what is really happening is they are helping us all become less free. They are stripping us all from a happy and productive society.

There is nothing free about being addicted to a chemical. Anyone who has experienced it first hand knows the meaning of the term "monkey on my back."

Idk..long term that would benefit very few. Even the most tyrannical rulers are rational.actors who.wish to maintain power. This would be a recipe for disaster.

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving clemency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.

I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

The vast costs of imprisoning lots of people for what in many cases is essentially a medical/psycological issue of self-medicating. Plus the fact that we can't afford it.

We imprison a huge number of people. In comparison to other countries we don't look so good.

Then there is the issue of all the laws put into place to fight the drug war eroding everyone's rights. From no-knock warrants to militarization of police to property seizure laws that would stun the founding fathers.

The failure of these laws to do much to actually stop the problems. They appear to have only created violent cartels, full prisons, and militarized police.

The idea that its not our duty to give up cash and rights to save people from their own stupidity.

Basically, the way these things have been dealt with haven't worked and have had really bad consequences.

(04-23-2014 04:31 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:20 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving clemency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.

I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

I think it is a lot of that, and you are right on many fronts, but I also think it has to do with these messages being injected from the top. I think there are gains involved for our govt to keep people dependent on chemicals. It helps keep people dependent on the govt. I think it strips away their liberties and destroys their will to think for themselves. Tyrannically govt structures operate more easily in chaotic societies. I think drugs help keep populations from rising up and dependent. Almost like a widespread sedation. What a better way to keep the People distracted than medicating them. It allows for the real change to occur, undisputed.

I hate to say it, but I think the legalize drugs crowd has been tricked into fighting their cause. You hear them talk about liberties and freedoms, but what is really happening is they are helping us all become less free. They are stripping us all from a happy and productive society.

There is nothing free about being addicted to a chemical. Anyone who has experienced it first hand knows the meaning of the term "monkey on my back."

Gas,canned air, and rubber cement is legal and by your logic half the population should be; buying it, sniffing, repeat... Many people use inhalants as an intoxicant. In the end I do not blame you after all propaganda has influenced much worse things to happen through out history.

(04-23-2014 04:38 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:31 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:20 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving leniency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.
I
I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

I think it is a lot of that, and you are right on many fronts, but I also think it has to do with these messages being injected from the top. I think there are gains involved for our govt to keep people dependent on chemicals. It helps keep people dependent on the govt. I think it strips away their liberties and destroys their will to think for themselves. Tyrannically govt structures operate more easily in chaotic societies. I think drugs help keep populations from rising up and dependent. Almost like a widespread sedation. What a better way to keep the People distracted than medicating them. It allows for the real change to occur, undisputed.

I hate to say it, but I think the legalize drugs crowd has been tricked into fighting their cause. You hear them talk about liberties and freedoms, but what is really happening is they are helping us all become less free. They are stripping us all from a happy and productive society.

There is nothing free about being addicted to a chemical. Anyone who has experienced it first hand knows the meaning of the term "monkey on my back."

Idk..long term that would benefit very few. Even the most tyrannical rulers are rational.actors who.wish to maintain power. This would be a recipe for disaster.

These are the very tactics that have been used in Latin America and elsewhere in the world. Counties that have high govt dependence also have high rates of drug use brought about by almost promotion like relaxation of their drug laws. They also have high rates of crime, teen pregnancy, child abuse, homeless, mentally ill and single parent homes.

I don't think those who are injecting these ideas see America as long term. That is the point.

(04-23-2014 04:43 PM)WPDAWG08 Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:31 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:20 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So let's just get to actual issue. What is the current obsession legalizing pot and lowering the drinking age? Are we not ready to admit that it is the liberalization of our society. Are we willing to acknowledge why that is happening and who is pushing these ideas?

1. Legalizing pot.
2. Lowering the drinking age.
3. Giving clemency to imprisoned drug dealers.
4. Decriminalizing drugs in general.

I'm not interested in the bogus argument about liberty and freedom. That argument can be used to justify anything.

I want to see if anyone can pinpoint the real reason this has become such a stylish cause.

Its the same reasons the green movement happened. Young people dont have $#it to worry abou like fighting a revolutionary war, a civil war, working in factories 12 hours a day or killing Nazis so they shift their focus. Politicians want their votes so they entertain the issues. Even the green movement hippies sought to fight for something bigger than themselves. Now it's "me, me, me."

I think it is a lot of that, and you are right on many fronts, but I also think it has to do with these messages being injected from the top. I think there are gains involved for our govt to keep people dependent on chemicals. It helps keep people dependent on the govt. I think it strips away their liberties and destroys their will to think for themselves. Tyrannically govt structures operate more easily in chaotic societies. I think drugs help keep populations from rising up and dependent. Almost like a widespread sedation. What a better way to keep the People distracted than medicating them. It allows for the real change to occur, undisputed.

I hate to say it, but I think the legalize drugs crowd has been tricked into fighting their cause. You hear them talk about liberties and freedoms, but what is really happening is they are helping us all become less free. They are stripping us all from a happy and productive society.

There is nothing free about being addicted to a chemical. Anyone who has experienced it first hand knows the meaning of the term "monkey on my back."

Gas,canned air, and rubber cement is legal and by your logic half the population should be; buying it, sniffing, repeat... Many people use inhalants as an intoxicant. In the end I do not blame you after all propaganda has influenced much worse things to happen through out history.

absolutely ridiculous. Those chemicals are not abused at the rate of illicit drugs mainly because they don't produce a desirable effect. Good Lord man. Have you seen paint huffers?

(04-23-2014 02:22 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  If I remember Texas lowered its drinking age but raised it again after they found out it wasn't working.

Actually, they raised it when congress tied federal funds to it. Reference, I turned 19 literally the day before it went from 18 to 19 and 3 years later it went to 21 (I was 22). Articles written today may say something different, but I remember quite well what was being said at the time.

(04-23-2014 01:30 PM)mlb Wrote:  I don't have data to back this up, but in southwest Ohio it seems as though the prohibitionists are usually backed by religious organizations. They don't want someone telling them their rights when it comes to birth control and such (rightfully), but in turn wants to tell everyone else how to live their life.

Help me out with this. Religious Organizations don't want someone telling them their birth control rights?

One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

I'd let each state decide. It isn't an important issue.

(04-23-2014 05:12 PM)supertiger Wrote:  One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

Whatever arbitrary date you set doesn't do much to change things.

You make 18-21 drinking a privilege based on getting education on the subject and behaving responsibly. Any infraction and you lose the privilege.

Right now the peer pressure is to break the law. You try to convert that into peer pressure to keep the privilege by being moderate.

What privilege?

(04-23-2014 05:42 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:12 PM)supertiger Wrote:  One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

Whatever arbitrary date you set doesn't do much to change things.

You make 18-21 drinking a privilege based on getting education on the subject and behaving responsibly. Any infraction and you lose the privilege.

Right now the peer pressure is to break the law. You try to convert that into peer pressure to keep the privilege by being moderate.

So now we are bribing kids to get an educating with alcohol.

This think tank just keeps getting better and better.

How about we hand out bottles of Jack with their diploma? That should really make our roads safe with all those graduation parties afoot. While we're at it, let's throw in a hooker and a bag of blow.

(04-23-2014 06:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:42 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:12 PM)supertiger Wrote:  One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

Whatever arbitrary date you set doesn't do much to change things.

You make 18-21 drinking a privilege based on getting education on the subject and behaving responsibly. Any infraction and you lose the privilege.

Right now the peer pressure is to break the law. You try to convert that into peer pressure to keep the privilege by being moderate.

So now we are bribing kids to get an educating with alcohol.

This think tank just keeps getting better and better.

How about we hand out bottles of Jack with their diploma? That should really make our roads safe with all those graduation parties afoot. While we're at it, let's throw in a hooker and a bag of blow.

so doing that in education = bad

but.....

the military doing it = good

(04-23-2014 06:14 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 06:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:42 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:12 PM)supertiger Wrote:  One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

Whatever arbitrary date you set doesn't do much to change things.

You make 18-21 drinking a privilege based on getting education on the subject and behaving responsibly. Any infraction and you lose the privilege.

Right now the peer pressure is to break the law. You try to convert that into peer pressure to keep the privilege by being moderate.

So now we are bribing kids to get an educating with alcohol.

This think tank just keeps getting better and better.

How about we hand out bottles of Jack with their diploma? That should really make our roads safe with all those graduation parties afoot. While we're at it, let's throw in a hooker and a bag of blow.

so doing that in education = bad

but.....

the military doing it = good

John is a prime example of why this is a bad idea.

(04-23-2014 06:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:42 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:12 PM)supertiger Wrote:  One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

Whatever arbitrary date you set doesn't do much to change things.

You make 18-21 drinking a privilege based on getting education on the subject and behaving responsibly. Any infraction and you lose the privilege.

Right now the peer pressure is to break the law. You try to convert that into peer pressure to keep the privilege by being moderate.

So now we are bribing kids to get an educating with alcohol.

This think tank just keeps getting better and better.

How about we hand out bottles of Jack with their diploma? That should really make our roads safe with all those graduation parties afoot. While we're at it, let's throw in a hooker and a bag of blow.

You are hyperventilating. You should try logically debating rather than seeking absurd conclusions to screech out.

(04-23-2014 06:20 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 06:12 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:42 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 05:12 PM)supertiger Wrote:  One big issue about 18 year-old kids drinking is that most of them are idiots....

I'd also say that letting them buy alcohol would necessarily increase availability among 14-17 year olds. There's your biggest problem.

I'd think that 19 or 20 would be a better age than 21.

Whatever arbitrary date you set doesn't do much to change things.

You make 18-21 drinking a privilege based on getting education on the subject and behaving responsibly. Any infraction and you lose the privilege.

Right now the peer pressure is to break the law. You try to convert that into peer pressure to keep the privilege by being moderate.

So now we are bribing kids to get an educating with alcohol.

This think tank just keeps getting better and better.

How about we hand out bottles of Jack with their diploma? That should really make our roads safe with all those graduation parties afoot. While we're at it, let's throw in a hooker and a bag of blow.

You are hyperventilating. You should try logically debating rather than seeking absurd conclusions to screech out.

You just got done telling us we should use alcohol as a reward. It's your conclusion. I am being perfectly logical.