(03-05-2014 08:25 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:17 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 12:11 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.

So her assertion is that she would rather battle the sophisticated Russian military in armed combat over Ukraine then battle the aged armed forces of Iraq and bringing the WOT to the terrorists in Afghanistan?

If this is so, then thankfully Rachel Maddow is not a defense consultant as she seems incapable of making smart military and foreign policy decisions.

I think what she is saying is that the Iraq conflict put us in a position that we can no longer tell other countries that it is unacceptable to invade a country under false pretences.

The blame should be placed on FDR, who during a period of profoundly ill health and weakness before his death, agreed to give Stalin a hegemonic influence over Eastern Europe. Ironically, this occurred at the Yalta Conference on the Crimea.

Another good point. Given his health however, I can sort of give him a pass.

That said, Shouldn't someone be blaming Putin himself?

Misunderstanding. What she actually said was, "my bush is a flaming fish crane". it's like, "me so horney" for lesbians. In girl-girl circles, having a hot "fish crane" means she's got it totally going on downstairs. so, when it actually bursts into flames . . . . Look out.

think: "man, I've got major wood" for dudes.

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would want that.

SO, if not for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars she says Obama would go to war with Russia over the Ukraine? Ain't no way that would turn out well for America.

We do not want to fight a war we do not plan to win.
Crimea - the area alone gives too many advantages to the Ruskies.
It's also too popular with the Crimeans....Russians have had their naval bases
and personnel there for a long while so plenty of local support. Still hard to
believe Nakita Khrushchev gave the Crimea to them years ago back in 1954

Rachel Maddow is a perfect reporter for msnbc. Dumb and dumber.

Bush was one of our worst presidents, but Ukraine is far from his fault. Obama has been in office for over five years now, if anyone in America is to blame it's him.

(03-05-2014 11:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Bush was one of our worst presidents, but Ukraine is far from his fault. Obama has been in office for over five years now, if anyone in America is to blame it's him.

Imagine obama at the helm on 9/11. Or hypothetical prez gore. Yeah, that's right. "Worst" suddenly seems to take on a new meaning, doesn't it?

(03-05-2014 11:29 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Bush was one of our worst presidents, but Ukraine is far from his fault. Obama has been in office for over five years now, if anyone in America is to blame it's him.

Imagine obama at the helm on 9/11. Or hypothetical prez gore. Yeah, that's right. "Worst" suddenly seems to take on a new meaning, doesn't it?

I've never been one to gush over Bush's handling of 9/11. I think he made several major errors. But I'll be the first to agree with the opinion that Gore or Obama would have been worse--far worse.

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would want that.

Look even if there was no Iraq or Stan does anyone think a US president with an ounce of sense would get militarily involved with Russia over the Ukrane?

Maddow is not doing anything here except giving Obama cover, it's her default mode...

We did not have 9 years of Bush foreign policy, we did not even have nine years of Bush....

Obama owns four years of Iraq and Stan... Remember he was going to close gitmo within 90 days?

(03-04-2014 11:49 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:47 AM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would want that.

So you agree, Obama being a President that could care less about foreign affairs and not having a clue what to do, as he proved in Syria, is George Bush's fault. Whatever you libs need to think to get you through the day.

I don't want the United States to get involved with in this mess. I think that majority of America would agree with me on that.

Then maybe, perhaps Obama should have been organizing a passive role from the beginning instead of talking about red lines Russia should not cross..

(03-06-2014 12:08 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:49 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:47 AM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.
Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would want that.

So you agree, Obama being a President that could care less about foreign affairs and not having a clue what to do, as he proved in Syria, is George Bush's fault. Whatever you libs need to think to get you through the day.

I don't want the United States to get involved with in this mess. I think that majority of America would agree with me on that.

Then maybe, perhaps Obama should have been organizing a passive role from the beginning instead of talking about red lines Russia should not cross..

This. There is really nothing we can do to prevent Russia from retaking part of Ukraine. We can impose hardships upon them for doing so, but we cannot prevent it. So don't go letting your bulldog mouth overload your chihuahua ass.

I want to throw out one contrarian possibility. Look at Ukraine. The western 2/3 or so leans heavily toward Western Europe. The eastern 1/3 or so leans heavily toward Russia. That's why this whole mess started. If Ukraine stays the way it was, it's going to be in a state of near perpetual civil war. Been that way for a while, going to stay that way. Maybe, just maybe, everybody is better off with eastern Ukraine going back to Russia. The pro-Europeans in the west could move toward the EU, the pro-Russians in the east would be part of Russia. Probably a lot more stable that way. The compromise might be to say, okay, Putin, you get what you want, eastern Ukraine. In return, western Ukraine gets to pursue the EU and NATO. And that tends to separate this from Sudetenland.

Haven't fully thought through the implications, not sure I'd stay with that in the end. For one thing, it's a bit presumptuous--no, a lot presumptuous--to go around dividing up other people's countries. But it might be the way out here.

If you're a two term president, after your first term, you can't continue to blame your predecessor.

Then again.. How many times did the Bush Administration blame the Clintons for anything?

(03-06-2014 08:36 AM)gdunn Wrote:  If you're a two term president, after your first term, you can't continue to blame your predecessor.

Then again.. How many times did the Bush Administration blame the Clintons for anything?

Nice call... Let's see hom many misberals can answer...

(03-05-2014 11:39 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:29 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Bush was one of our worst presidents, but Ukraine is far from his fault. Obama has been in office for over five years now, if anyone in America is to blame it's him.

Imagine obama at the helm on 9/11. Or hypothetical prez gore. Yeah, that's right. "Worst" suddenly seems to take on a new meaning, doesn't it?

I've never been one to gush over Bush's handling of 9/11. I think he made several major errors. But I'll be the first to agree with the opinion that Gore or Obama would have been worse--far worse.

I know we're playing the "What If" game here, since it's all speculative, but what do you (general you, not specific you) believe Obama would've done on 9/11?

Rightly or wrongly, I know Obama is seen as 'soft' and lacking foreign policy swagger, but let's be realistic here. Civil unrest amongst questionable characters in Syria, Libya and Crimea are completely different balls of wax than a major direct attack on our own soil.

- Would he have gone aggressively after Al-Qaeda, in particular those camps being sponsored by the Afghan Taliban?
- Would he have invaded Iraq and overthrown Saddam Hussein?

I'm not sure on the first question, but I think a military assault would've been recommended by his advisers and likely would've happened. The question is how much oomph would've been put behind it and how much cleansing of Taliban/AQ he would've done. The second question? Pretty much a solid No, which quite frankly would've been a positive outcome.

(03-06-2014 09:34 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:39 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:29 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Bush was one of our worst presidents, but Ukraine is far from his fault. Obama has been in office for over five years now, if anyone in America is to blame it's him.

Imagine obama at the helm on 9/11. Or hypothetical prez gore. Yeah, that's right. "Worst" suddenly seems to take on a new meaning, doesn't it?

I've never been one to gush over Bush's handling of 9/11. I think he made several major errors. But I'll be the first to agree with the opinion that Gore or Obama would have been worse--far worse.

I know we're playing the "What If" game here, since it's all speculative, but what do you (general you, not specific you) believe Obama would've done on 9/11?

Rightly or wrongly, I know Obama is seen as 'soft' and lacking foreign policy swagger, but let's be realistic here. Civil unrest amongst questionable characters in Syria, Libya and Crimea are completely different balls of wax than a major direct attack on our own soil.

- Would he have gone aggressively after Al-Qaeda, in particular those camps being sponsored by the Afghan Taliban?
- Would he have invaded Iraq and overthrown Saddam Hussein?

I'm not sure on the first question, but I think a military assault would've been recommended by his advisers and likely would've happened. The question is how much oomph would've been put behind it and how much cleansing of Taliban/AQ he would've done. The second question? Pretty much a solid No, which quite frankly would've been a positive outcome.

Well let's look at the incident at Benghazi.. An Embassy is considered American soil..

(03-05-2014 11:39 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:29 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 11:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Bush was one of our worst presidents, but Ukraine is far from his fault. Obama has been in office for over five years now, if anyone in America is to blame it's him.

Imagine obama at the helm on 9/11. Or hypothetical prez gore. Yeah, that's right. "Worst" suddenly seems to take on a new meaning, doesn't it?

I've never been one to gush over Bush's handling of 9/11. I think he made several major errors. But I'll be the first to agree with the opinion that Gore or Obama would have been worse--far worse.

I agree that Gore or Obama would've been worse in dealing with 9/11, but Bush was not a good president. Still, at least I got the impression that W was a nice guy who just wasn't cut out for being president, Obama strikes me as a somewhat clever man who truly believes in his policies, even though he's going to rival Woodrow Wilson and FDR as the worst prez of all time by 2016.

(03-05-2014 10:27 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would want that.

SO, if not for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars she says Obama would go to war with Russia over the Ukraine? Ain't no way that would turn out well for America.

No one in their right mind would want to send troops there. People are just using it as an excuse to attack the President.

(03-07-2014 02:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 10:27 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 11:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think she is talking about the fact that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have made it so that the American people are weary of war and aren't interested in getting involved in the Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would want that.

SO, if not for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars she says AObama would go to war with Russia over the Ukraine? Ain't no way that would turn out well for America.

No one in their right mind would want to send troops there. People are just using it as an excuse to attack the President.

Nobody is attacking Obama for not putting boots on the ground there... What is being criticized is the worst bluff in history which made the US look like a total joke.

Obama "drew" a line and Putin is dancing all over it..

The blame should be placed on FDR, who during a period of profoundly ill health and weakness before his death, agreed to give Stalin a hegemonic influence over Eastern Europe. Ironically, this occurred at the Yalta Conference on the Crimea.
[/quote]


It's not fair to Obama he's disabled too. He has weak knees.


Seriously, I don't want troops in the Ukraine either but there will come a time when we'll need them pretty close probably in the old Soviet states that are now in Nato. Don't think Pudding in Pie doesn't have the idea of past greatness in the old USSR and wants it back. He's not stopping there just like Hitler didn't stop in the Sudetenland. It'll be pay me now or pay me later type of affair. Which shall we pick?