(10-16-2013 01:34 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:24 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:16 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:09 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:41 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Industrialized countries have universal healthcare. Don't be scurred of healthcurrr!

And the access to that care often = long waiting lines. Don't be scurred of common sense.

This isn't true in all cases (even within the same country).

Friends of ours in Sweden waited 12 hours to have their daughter's broken arm seen when they lived in Sweden (bone was sticking out of skin). They were amazed when their son was taking immediately at a US hospital.

What does your anecdote say about lines in countries that don't use the same method of universal healthcare as Sweden?

All my anecdote does is give an example that wait lines in universal care situations ARE REAL not a fabrication and that we should be wary of that reality.

(10-16-2013 01:40 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:25 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I broke my leg when I was a kid in Ireland. I didn't wait one minute.

The care wasn't perfect but then again I've never experienced no issues in an American hospital either.

Did you break your leg in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?
The difference matters as the two have totally different healthcare systems. It also matters when you were a kid as the Republic of Ireland.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK and participates in the HSC which is essentially the NHS for Northern Ireland.

The Republic of Ireland before 2004 was private healthcare. The Irish have only had the Health Service Executive run public system combined with a private system since 2004.

The HSE is known for very long wait lines:

http://www.movetoireland.com/movepag/medover.htm

"Free it may be, but you're also free to wait. Waiting lists for those without private insurance can stretch into years - even for critical operations like heart operations. There are tens of thousands of people waiting for their "free" medical services… …To cut down the waits, you need to pay for private health insurance. "

ROI and in 1998 or so I think.

The system they had in place at the time was not one similar to the American model. If you ended up in a major hospital you ended up in a form of public care.

(10-16-2013 01:33 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:25 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:56 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:53 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:47 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  I feel like the GOP is the only group that thinks this isn't the GOP's fault.

Of course, because proposing several negotiations that obama and the senate turn down puts all the blame on the GOP. Goon

Manufacturing a shutdown in order to try gain leverage over your opponent is not democracy.

The US isn't a democracy.

So the US isn't a representative democracy?

The US is a constitutional republic. Did you miss 6th grade civics?

"the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/w...cracy.html

(10-16-2013 12:56 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:53 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:47 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  I feel like the GOP is the only group that thinks this isn't the GOP's fault.

Of course, because proposing several negotiations that obama and the senate turn down puts all the blame on the GOP. Goon

Manufacturing a shutdown in order to try gain leverage over your opponent is not democracy.

There were like seven or eight shut downs during the Reagan administration.

Positive Rep me and I'll vote for Obama in 2016

(10-16-2013 01:33 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:25 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:56 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:53 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:47 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  I feel like the GOP is the only group that thinks this isn't the GOP's fault.

Of course, because proposing several negotiations that obama and the senate turn down puts all the blame on the GOP. Goon

Manufacturing a shutdown in order to try gain leverage over your opponent is not democracy.

The US isn't a democracy.

So the US isn't a representative democracy?

That's a made up term so Democrats don't feel stupid. Apparently it's working, but you're still stupid.

Positive Rep me and I'll vote for Obama in 2016

(10-16-2013 01:43 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:34 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:24 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:16 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:09 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  And the access to that care often = long waiting lines. Don't be scurred of common sense.

This isn't true in all cases (even within the same country).

Friends of ours in Sweden waited 12 hours to have their daughter's broken arm seen when they lived in Sweden (bone was sticking out of skin). They were amazed when their son was taking immediately at a US hospital.

What does your anecdote say about lines in countries that don't use the same method of universal healthcare as Sweden?

All my anecdote does is give an example that wait lines in universal care situations ARE REAL not a fabrication and that we should be wary of that reality.

Nobody is saying wait lines don't happen. My point is that we can find an anecdote supporting any viewpoint/occurrence, and it won't give us any insight into how common it actually is. I'm sure you know what the availability heuristic is, so you should know why relying on anecdotal evidence is foolish.

Approving endless spending on ridiculous things, like Solyndra' $538,000,000 throw away, would be
criminal for the money keepers of the US.
Of course an administration and Senate that went five years between any budgets would not recognize that.

(10-16-2013 01:47 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:33 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:25 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:56 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:53 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Of course, because proposing several negotiations that obama and the senate turn down puts all the blame on the GOP. Goon

Manufacturing a shutdown in order to try gain leverage over your opponent is not democracy.

The US isn't a democracy.

So the US isn't a representative democracy?

The US is a constitutional republic. Did you miss 6th grade civics?

"the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/w...cracy.html

Apparently you think that republic and representative democracy are mutually exclusive terms when describing our country. A Republic is considered to be a variant of democracy.

what is out country?

(10-16-2013 03:53 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  what is out country?

I'm sure you know what a typo is.

(10-16-2013 03:27 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:43 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:34 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:24 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:16 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This isn't true in all cases (even within the same country).

Friends of ours in Sweden waited 12 hours to have their daughter's broken arm seen when they lived in Sweden (bone was sticking out of skin). They were amazed when their son was taking immediately at a US hospital.

What does your anecdote say about lines in countries that don't use the same method of universal healthcare as Sweden?

All my anecdote does is give an example that wait lines in universal care situations ARE REAL not a fabrication and that we should be wary of that reality.

Nobody is saying wait lines don't happen. My point is that we can find an anecdote supporting any viewpoint/occurrence, and it won't give us any insight into how common it actually is. I'm sure you know what the availability heuristic is, so you should know why relying on anecdotal evidence is foolish.

I work for a multi-national company and know quite a few families that live in universal healthcare countries. They all complain about waits for service, the cost in the form of high taxes and the freeloaders. Those that can afford it buy private insurance as a hedge against a long wait (which in my mind totally undermines the healthcare that they should be receiving from the high taxes they pay...they are essentially paying twice).

The Swedish example was one of those families. I used them as an example as they had experience with both Swedish and US healthcare as that family lived in both Sweden and the US.

And yes i understand what anecdotal evidence is.

(10-16-2013 12:15 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  So the UN gets their talking points from the White House now....
[i]

Misery loves company.

With The New World Order Obama = UN.

(10-16-2013 03:27 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:43 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:34 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:24 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 01:16 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This isn't true in all cases (even within the same country).

Friends of ours in Sweden waited 12 hours to have their daughter's broken arm seen when they lived in Sweden (bone was sticking out of skin). They were amazed when their son was taking immediately at a US hospital.

What does your anecdote say about lines in countries that don't use the same method of universal healthcare as Sweden?

All my anecdote does is give an example that wait lines in universal care situations ARE REAL not a fabrication and that we should be wary of that reality.

Nobody is saying wait lines don't happen. My point is that we can find an anecdote supporting any viewpoint/occurrence, and it won't give us any insight into how common it actually is. I'm sure you know what the availability heuristic is, so you should know why relying on anecdotal evidence is foolish.

In Sweden's case the evidence is way more than anecdotal and very well documented. Their waits are humongous and appear to be totally out of control. And they are generally considered to be the best of the single-provider systems. The best single-payer system is Canada, which ranked behind every European system when compared in a couple of recent studies. That's behind places like Bosnia and Albania and Macedonia, to clarify .