US News Top 50 Public Universities

Did a quick count and looks like 43 of top 50 play FBS football (creative counting with UCal). Interesting to see CAA schools crush the remaining 7 spots: #6 W&M #31 UDel #34 Stony Brook #40 UNH (exCAA UMass is #40)

Edit to grammer

(10-14-2013 12:34 PM)capn kitt Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 09:22 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote:  Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

Our education program, business program, and a handful of other programs are nationally ranked. How many people outside of those of us who went to JMU know this???

Athletics can highlight the fact that many of those programs are nationally ranked. We are "recognized" by academic journals/magazines for having top programs but not recognized by the general public because most are unaware of JMU outside our regional footprint.

Athletics will help shine a light on what are already some great academic programs. If I was a professor, I would be excited that all their hard work at making JMU a top academic university may start to get even more recognition.

Yep, good points, Dolley. We are recognized, but the question is "by whom?" If you went to Case Western Reserve, wouldn't you be PO'd to have to constantly explain what a great research institute it is to folks who've never heard of it? Likewise, if you are a JMU business grad you probably take satisfaction that your business friends know it's a great biz school, but annoyed that others think we the same size as W&M.

WE ARE NOT RECOGNIZED. I work for a Big 4 accounting firm and I have to continually defend JMU/COB/accounting major. I bring up the 2010 #1 pass rate of CPA in the country and they look up US News (the holy grail despite inconsistencies) and we are not listed as a top business school or accounting program. I bring up Businessweek but like 50% of the rating is based off student reviews and we are rated like 90th by recruiters. Last month I was in a room with UVA, VT, APP State, Tulane, University of Wisconsin Madison grads and thankfully there was another JMU grad for support.

FBS football and deep runs in the NCAA tournament give schools brand recognition and national exposure. It's human nature to be more trusting of a brand that you have heard of before, the same goes for colleges. If an employer has heard of your school, then he or she is more likely to consider your application. And like any advertising, perception trumps facts. There may be other schools that are better in a particular field, but unless a person is well versed in the academic pecking order or has a bias, then he or she is more likely to give the "known" school more weight. Same goes when kids are apply for schools. More applicants equals a better pool of students. As many others have noted, VT road the coattails of football success and ACC membership to become a top 100 school overall (instead of just a good engineering school) because kids wanted to be associated with the school. No research grant is going to get that kind of results.

(10-14-2013 12:56 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 12:34 PM)capn kitt Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 09:22 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote:  Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

Our education program, business program, and a handful of other programs are nationally ranked. How many people outside of those of us who went to JMU know this???

Athletics can highlight the fact that many of those programs are nationally ranked. We are "recognized" by academic journals/magazines for having top programs but not recognized by the general public because most are unaware of JMU outside our regional footprint.

Athletics will help shine a light on what are already some great academic programs. If I was a professor, I would be excited that all their hard work at making JMU a top academic university may start to get even more recognition.

Yep, good points, Dolley. We are recognized, but the question is "by whom?" If you went to Case Western Reserve, wouldn't you be PO'd to have to constantly explain what a great research institute it is to folks who've never heard of it? Likewise, if you are a JMU business grad you probably take satisfaction that your business friends know it's a great biz school, but annoyed that others think we the same size as W&M.

WE ARE NOT RECOGNIZED. I work for a Big 4 accounting firm and I have to continually defend JMU/COB/accounting major. I bring up the 2010 #1 pass rate of CPA in the country and they look up US News (the holy grail despite inconsistencies) and we are not listed as a top business school or accounting program. I bring up Businessweek but like 50% of the rating is based off student reviews and we are rated like 90th by recruiters. Last month I was in a room with UVA, VT, APP State, Tulane, University of Wisconsin Madison grads and thankfully there was another JMU grad for support.

FWIW - I applied to several top MBA programs a while back...being a Madison COB Grad & CPA was a big variable to admissions at all the schools. JMU's accounting dept. has a very good reputation. As far as national, I don't know, I can't say I've heard of any undergrad business school being hyped...that may be top 20 MBA territory and if a school is not there, getting there now is very difficult and a very worthy goal. JMU has a lot of alum in big 4s that have filtered out of public into corporate and out of nuts and bolts accounting altogether.

(10-14-2013 09:31 AM)Whitdragn Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 09:16 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote:  Very good point you make actually. I just don't understand why we spent so much money upgrading Bridgeforth if we're staying FCS. Also, wouldn't going FBS help increase alumni donations to aid in funding for other academic programs at JMU?

I agree; I don't think the vision (even from Rose) was to maintain playing at the FCS level. I do think the bulk realignment happened quicker than they had anticipated and with a new president coming in the timing couldn't have been worse for JMU. We'll see what happens in the next few months...

As for increase donations I don't really know for sure, the vast majority of scholarly articles on the subject suggest minimal increases to academic donations due to athletic success beyond a handful of schools. That's not to say increased exposure won't cause some alumni to increase or start new donations.

Just a quick personal example for me. My company matches charitable donations dollar for dollar. Since the Duke Club isn't a complete charitable cause, their matching donation goes to JMU general fund.

So, as I increase my Duke Club donations, academic donations also increase in kind.

(10-14-2013 01:37 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 12:56 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  WE ARE NOT RECOGNIZED. I work for a Big 4 accounting firm and I have to continually defend JMU/COB/accounting major. I bring up the 2010 #1 pass rate of CPA in the country and they look up US News (the holy grail despite inconsistencies) and we are not listed as a top business school or accounting program. I bring up Businessweek but like 50% of the rating is based off student reviews and we are rated like 90th by recruiters. Last month I was in a room with UVA, VT, APP State, Tulane, University of Wisconsin Madison grads and thankfully there was another JMU grad for support.

FWIW - I applied to several top MBA programs a while back...being a Madison COB Grad & CPA was a big variable to admissions at all the schools. JMU's accounting dept. has a very good reputation. As far as national, I don't know, I can't say I've heard of any undergrad business school being hyped...that may be top 20 MBA territory and if a school is not there, getting there now is very difficult and a very worthy goal. JMU has a lot of alum in big 4s that have filtered out of public into corporate and out of nuts and bolts accounting altogether.

That is very refreshing as I have started considering a MBA as I work in the "Consulting" area of public accounting. I hear great things about COB from my firm's HR (JMU is highest in DC area for performance ratings and retention) and Recruiting (just last week the head recruiter for my group said she preferred JMU students over VT & UVA) but not from direct colleagues. So seems like we are recognized by those hiring and/or offering admission but not the everyday business professional.

He's wrong. We might be nationally recognized in publications but we are not a nationally recognized school. Big time football and/or basketball is the only way to do that outside of being an ivy league school or an MIT or something.

(10-14-2013 02:04 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 01:37 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 12:56 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  WE ARE NOT RECOGNIZED. I work for a Big 4 accounting firm and I have to continually defend JMU/COB/accounting major. I bring up the 2010 #1 pass rate of CPA in the country and they look up US News (the holy grail despite inconsistencies) and we are not listed as a top business school or accounting program. I bring up Businessweek but like 50% of the rating is based off student reviews and we are rated like 90th by recruiters. Last month I was in a room with UVA, VT, APP State, Tulane, University of Wisconsin Madison grads and thankfully there was another JMU grad for support.

FWIW - I applied to several top MBA programs a while back...being a Madison COB Grad & CPA was a big variable to admissions at all the schools. JMU's accounting dept. has a very good reputation. As far as national, I don't know, I can't say I've heard of any undergrad business school being hyped...that may be top 20 MBA territory and if a school is not there, getting there now is very difficult and a very worthy goal. JMU has a lot of alum in big 4s that have filtered out of public into corporate and out of nuts and bolts accounting altogether.

That is very refreshing as I have started considering a MBA as I work in the "Consulting" area of public accounting. I hear great things about COB from my firm's HR (JMU is highest in DC area for performance ratings and retention) and Recruiting (just last week the head recruiter for my group said she preferred JMU students over VT & UVA) but not from direct colleagues. So seems like we are recognized by those hiring and/or offering admission but not the everyday business professional.

My two cents - a CPA with public experience, Big 4 even better and consulting experience that is an excel power user, going past already powerful array functions and writing his/her own visual basic code is worth as much as any MBA, I don't care what school issued the diploma. You can learn VBA (maybe you have) for a lot less than $115,000. Maybe you would not have the complete address listing of all the MBAers from whatever school but don't worry, they will call you. MBAs have become expensive to the point that it's not a no brainer to get an MBA even if it's from a great school. You're big 4, if you are not already, you will be earning what the MBA programs promise grads anyways... You'll be a CFO if you want to a CFO, wait until the baby boomers start retiring in mass, those that make their own luck will prosper...

(10-14-2013 03:23 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 02:04 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 01:37 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 12:56 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  WE ARE NOT RECOGNIZED. I work for a Big 4 accounting firm and I have to continually defend JMU/COB/accounting major. I bring up the 2010 #1 pass rate of CPA in the country and they look up US News (the holy grail despite inconsistencies) and we are not listed as a top business school or accounting program. I bring up Businessweek but like 50% of the rating is based off student reviews and we are rated like 90th by recruiters. Last month I was in a room with UVA, VT, APP State, Tulane, University of Wisconsin Madison grads and thankfully there was another JMU grad for support.

FWIW - I applied to several top MBA programs a while back...being a Madison COB Grad & CPA was a big variable to admissions at all the schools. JMU's accounting dept. has a very good reputation. As far as national, I don't know, I can't say I've heard of any undergrad business school being hyped...that may be top 20 MBA territory and if a school is not there, getting there now is very difficult and a very worthy goal. JMU has a lot of alum in big 4s that have filtered out of public into corporate and out of nuts and bolts accounting altogether.

That is very refreshing as I have started considering a MBA as I work in the "Consulting" area of public accounting. I hear great things about COB from my firm's HR (JMU is highest in DC area for performance ratings and retention) and Recruiting (just last week the head recruiter for my group said she preferred JMU students over VT & UVA) but not from direct colleagues. So seems like we are recognized by those hiring and/or offering admission but not the everyday business professional.

My two cents - a CPA with public experience, Big 4 even better and consulting experience that is an excel power user, going past already powerful array functions and writing his/her own visual basic code is worth as much as any MBA, I don't care what school issued the diploma. You can learn VBA (maybe you have) for a lot less than $115,000. Maybe you would not have the complete address listing of all the MBAers from whatever school but don't worry, they will call you. MBAs have become expensive to the point that it's not a no brainer to get an MBA even if it's from a great school. You're big 4, if you are not already, you will be earning what the MBA programs promise grads anyways... You'll be a CFO if you want to a CFO, wait until the baby boomers start retiring in mass, those that make their own luck will prosper...

What exactly are you trying to say here? Going to a big 4 is fine. I did that for a couple years out of school and realized it was BS and left. Big 4's are basically a career death knell. You get to partner and throw away your entire life for like $250k/year (at least at first). Nowhere near worth it. Those firms suck. You can easily make that elsewhere without having to spend your day on your knees.

(10-14-2013 09:12 AM)Whitdragn Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 09:04 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote:  Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

I want to see us move up so our football program has the opportunity to compete at the highest divisional level just like the rest of our sports do.

That said in my opinion he didn't miss the point; there is no connection between FBS and being a National University. By its definition the reason we're not already a National university is the lack of academic terminal degree programs and high level research.

FBS football may may garner more national exposure but that will make a 0% difference in our US News regional ranking. Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

Thank you. You are exactly right Whitdragn. Tim didn't miss the point. Sean and the rest of those who have tried to skew Tim's response don't "get it".

(10-14-2013 03:43 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 03:23 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 02:04 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 01:37 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 12:56 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  WE ARE NOT RECOGNIZED. I work for a Big 4 accounting firm and I have to continually defend JMU/COB/accounting major. I bring up the 2010 #1 pass rate of CPA in the country and they look up US News (the holy grail despite inconsistencies) and we are not listed as a top business school or accounting program. I bring up Businessweek but like 50% of the rating is based off student reviews and we are rated like 90th by recruiters. Last month I was in a room with UVA, VT, APP State, Tulane, University of Wisconsin Madison grads and thankfully there was another JMU grad for support.

FWIW - I applied to several top MBA programs a while back...being a Madison COB Grad & CPA was a big variable to admissions at all the schools. JMU's accounting dept. has a very good reputation. As far as national, I don't know, I can't say I've heard of any undergrad business school being hyped...that may be top 20 MBA territory and if a school is not there, getting there now is very difficult and a very worthy goal. JMU has a lot of alum in big 4s that have filtered out of public into corporate and out of nuts and bolts accounting altogether.

That is very refreshing as I have started considering a MBA as I work in the "Consulting" area of public accounting. I hear great things about COB from my firm's HR (JMU is highest in DC area for performance ratings and retention) and Recruiting (just last week the head recruiter for my group said she preferred JMU students over VT & UVA) but not from direct colleagues. So seems like we are recognized by those hiring and/or offering admission but not the everyday business professional.

My two cents - a CPA with public experience, Big 4 even better and consulting experience that is an excel power user, going past already powerful array functions and writing his/her own visual basic code is worth as much as any MBA, I don't care what school issued the diploma. You can learn VBA (maybe you have) for a lot less than $115,000. Maybe you would not have the complete address listing of all the MBAers from whatever school but don't worry, they will call you. MBAs have become expensive to the point that it's not a no brainer to get an MBA even if it's from a great school. You're big 4, if you are not already, you will be earning what the MBA programs promise grads anyways... You'll be a CFO if you want to a CFO, wait until the baby boomers start retiring in mass, those that make their own luck will prosper...

What exactly are you trying to say here? Going to a big 4 is fine. I did that for a couple years out of school and realized it was BS and left. Big 4's are basically a career death knell. You get to partner and throw away your entire life for like $250k/year (at least at first). Nowhere near worth it. Those firms suck. You can easily make that elsewhere without having to spend your day on your knees.

As Dr. Reardon (sp?), the man Dr. Reardon once said, "I'd rather fly a helicopter in Vietnam that work for a Big 6." I agree with him. Having a big 4 on your resume ain't hurtin' your job interview opportunities. Staying at a big 4 is a whole other kettle of fish.

The key word is "recognized". I bet very few people in the Western part of the country could tell you about Johns Hopkins or Swathmore but they'd know about Villanova. That's where he misses the point.

(10-14-2013 04:02 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  The key word is "recognized". I bet very few people in the Western part of the country could tell you about Johns Hopkins or Swathmore but they'd know about Villanova. That's where he misses the point.

Interesting, and yet, John Hopkins and Swathmore are more respected schools than Villanova.

(10-14-2013 04:05 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 04:02 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  The key word is "recognized". I bet very few people in the Western part of the country could tell you about Johns Hopkins or Swathmore but they'd know about Villanova. That's where he misses the point.

Interesting, and yet, John Hopkins and Swathmore are more respected schools than Villanova.

The average person knows more about Villanova than JH or Swathmore solely because of sports. People in the know of academia know which schools are better (not dismissing VU in any way). The vast majority of people are more in tune with universities because of sports not because of academics. Recruiters and graduate admissions offices know the difference though.

While I would love for us to be recognized by Joe Nevada or Suzie California, I would also prefer JMU to continue to be recognized as a good academic institute. These two things don't have to be mutually exclusive though and I think a lot of the faculty senate seems to be under the impression that academics will suffer if football goes FBS. Again, I just don't think that's going to be the case and even the Carr Report says a move to FBS will reduce the burden of student fees.

(10-14-2013 03:49 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 09:12 AM)Whitdragn Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 09:04 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote:  Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

I want to see us move up so our football program has the opportunity to compete at the highest divisional level just like the rest of our sports do.

That said in my opinion he didn't miss the point; there is no connection between FBS and being a National University. By its definition the reason we're not already a National university is the lack of academic terminal degree programs and high level research.

FBS football may may garner more national exposure but that will make a 0% difference in our US News regional ranking. Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

Thank you. You are exactly right Whitdragn. Tim didn't miss the point. Sean and the rest of those who have tried to skew Tim's response don't "get it".

While I know Alabama is quite the extreme, to say there is no connection between a Nationally recognized FBS team and Academic success is incorrect. I think a great example that has already been mentioned, is VT)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/...o-alabama/

(10-14-2013 04:05 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 04:02 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  The key word is "recognized". I bet very few people in the Western part of the country could tell you about Johns Hopkins or Swathmore but they'd know about Villanova. That's where he misses the point.

Interesting, and yet, John Hopkins and Swathmore are more respected schools than Villanova.

Exactly, which is where he misses the point. Villanova went on fire and beat Georgetown in 1985 and they're STILL a nationally recognized university because they hit a lot of jump shots against Georgetown. I fairness, they are still a national basketball power. Point is, academics rarely make a university nationally recognized. Athletics do. That's just the way it goes. I would have gotten rejected from Swathmore. Most of us would. So, for a faculy senate member to think that we'll be nationally recognized as a state university without football (or in the rare case like Duke prominent basketball) is so short-sighted that it's an indictment on their ability to see the big picture. That's ignorance at its best.

(10-14-2013 02:08 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  He's wrong. We might be nationally recognized in publications but we are not a nationally recognized school. Big time football and/or basketball is the only way to do that outside of being an ivy league school or an MIT or something.

I think this is a little shortsighted. Athletics is the only way? This is untrue. We need to offer more post graduate degrees focusing on research. That's a good way to get national attention. Now, I believe it is possible to achieve both FBS football and be a nationally recognized academic institution. Athletics may also help get your name out there, but it can't be the main focus. It always must be secondary to building a university focused on superlative academics, attracting and maintaining the best professors and students, and through research, innovation, and discovery....

Below is the response from Tim Louwers and my response to him. I will post another response from another faculty member in a new post. I'm pleased members of the faculty are responding. We are getting their attention. The debate is good.

From: Steve Brown <sbrown5683@gmail.com>
Date: October 14, 2013 at 11:09:48 AM EDT
To: "Louwers, Timothy J - louwertj" <louwertj@jmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The role of Athletics at JMU

Tim,

Thanks for your e-mail. My reading of the Carr Report is that in the short term, the reliance on student fees will increase. In the long term, the opportunity for Athletics to increase Generated Revenues is much better at the FBS level. Also, it seems that the reliance on student fees will decrease in the long term. I also believe you will see more donors giving to the academic side at JMU. I meant what I said about helping to create an endowment that is used for hiring and retaining faculty. The faculty needs multiple pots of money that can be used to compensate them and that's a great avenue that should be pursued. I also hope that there will be more faculty support of Athletics. There needs to be a true partnership by both sides of the university.

I am confident that we can all work together and that moving to FBS will enrich the academic experience in the long run.

Steve

Steve Brown
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 14, 2013, at 9:28 AM, "Louwers, Timothy J - louwertj" <louwertj@jmu.edu> wrote:

Steven,

Thank you for taking time to share your insights into this important decision for the University. Your arguments have merit and I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

One point of clarification please: With respect to your reading of the Carr Report, will moving up actually "reduce the amount of student fees that are needed to support Athletics" or just decrease the percentage (because of the larger revenue base) coming from student fees?

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Brown [mailto:sbrown5683@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 2:11 PM
To: McGraw, David Keith - mcgrawdk
Cc: Louwers, Timothy J - louwertj; Welter, Cole H - welterch; Rife, Terrie Kay - rifetk; Wright, Nathan Thompson - wrightnt; DePaolis, Rory - depaolra; Nelson, C Leigh - nelsoncl; Wang, Ping - wangpx; Heydari, M. Hossain - heydarmh; Kindig, Joan Schroeder - kindigjs; Grant, William C - grantwc; Harper, Steven R - harpe2sr; Hefner, Brooks Ellis - hefnerbe; Blatz, Sharon - blatzsl; Hamilton, Arthur John - hamiltaj; O'Donnell, Mary Elizabeth - odonneme; Whitmeyer, Steven J - whitmesj; Cowan, Eric - cowanwe; Burnett, Audrey - burnetaj; Davidson, Jessica B - davidsjb; Shonk, David James - shonkdj; Walker, Johnathan - walkerjx; Benton, Morgan - bentonmc; Parsons, Tara N - parsontn; Nye, Susan Brown - nyesb; Estes, Michele - estesmd; Mungin, Michael - munginmj; Stark, Eric M - starkem; Larsen, Val - larsenwv; Lubert, Caroline Parsons - lubertcp; Leidholdt, Alexander Stewart - leidhoas; Carbaugh, Eric Mason - carbauem; Ware, Andrew M - waream; Hayes, William Bryceland - hayeswb; Knopp, Andrea Fortson - knoppaf; Piper, Mark Christian - pipermc; Giovanetti, Kevin L - giovankl; Lubert, Howard Leslie - luberthl; DuVall, Kimberly D.R. - duvallkd; Poe, Nancy Trantham - poent; Polanco, Mieka - polancmb; Lunsford, Steven S - lunsfoss; Sherrill, Wolf - sherrikj; Harlacker, Leslie - harlacla; Humphries, Joshua Michael - humphrjm; Office of the President; King, Charles W - kingcw; Bourne, Jeffrey Thomas - bournejt
Subject: The role of Athletics at JMU

In preparation for the faculty senate meeting on October 17, 2013, I think it's important that you and your colleagues have additional information. I am a believer in fact-based decision making and there are several facts that I hope everyone will consider when they are asking questions, providing comments or giving advice to the actual decision makers, the President and the Board of Visitors. I am pleased that a number of interested groups are being asked to provide questions, comments and advice and the faculty is certainly one of those important groups. Please understand that I am writing to you as an alum only. I hold other positions with various boards at JMU but I want to make it clear I am not speaking as a representative of those organizations at this time.

I am a 1984 graduate of JMU (Public Admin & Political Science) and my wife, Alice, is a 1983 graduate (COB). I am a labor and employment lawyer and a partner at LeClair Ryan in Richmond, VA. Our daughter is a Dingledine scholar and she will graduate in May. Our son is applying to JMU as one of his many schools in the next day or so. I am also the Chair of the Honors Advisory Council and I have helped lead the effort to create and help fund the Hillcrest Scholarship program for the Honors Program. I recently joined the Duke Club board. Alice and I have endowed a scholarship for COB, a 5 year gift for the Hillcrest Scholarships and we consistently give cash and in-kind donations to the Duke Club and to the Honors Program. We have a passion for both athletics and academics at JMU. We can be instrumental in the upcoming fund raising campaign in a number of ways. There are many alums, like us, that have both a passion for athletics and academics. The alums that support both parts of the university make up a constituency that should not be ignored if JMU wants to make the vision of dreaming big a reality. Many of the alums from our era have the ability to make large, recurring donations and to convince others to do the same. The alums that graduated between 1977-2007 provide the greatest source of funding for JMU over the next 20 years and thousands of them support athletics.

The current and former leaders of JMU have made it very clear over the years that athletics is an important part of JMU life. Dr. Carrier started the growth era and it was continued by Dr. Rose. President Alger and the Board of Visitors are now poised to transform not only athletics but also academics at JMU. There is a minority faction amongst the faculty that would prefer that JMU eliminate or substantially reduce the role of athletics and focus solely on academics priorities. That will not happen in my opinion and it should not happen. The focus of the discussion should now shift to how athletics and academics can work together as aligned partners to further the vision and mission of the university.

Consider the following facts very carefully over the next few days as you prepare for the presentation by the Athletics Department on October 17:

1. In order for everyone's JMU degree to increase in value, the entire university's brand needs to be considered on a national stage. COB is a program that has done a great job growing its brand over the last 25 years. COB is at the head of the business degree table with UVA. The other colleges and universities with business schools in Virginia are a distant 3rd. COB is the most recognizable program at our university. JMU has done a good job on the academic side migrating from a predominantly liberal arts school 30 years ago to a school that now offers excellent degrees in the science, technology, engineering and math. The STEM side is now viewed on par, on an increasing basis, with UVA and VA Tech. JMU spent resources to increase the STEM brand for a variety of reasons. Many said that JMU didn't need to be focused on STEM because UVA and VA Tech had those educational needs locked down in Virginia. JMU ignored that viewpoint and it is now at the STEM table with UVA and VA Tech and others (VCU, ODU and GMU on a lesser basis). UVA and VA Tech are now considered our peers in many STEM-related concentrations on a regional basis. This needs to be recognized on a national basis.

2. In order for the entire JMU "boat" to rise in the national water, there needs to be a focus on both the athletic and academic sides. I realize that not every faculty member or student at JMU cares about the role athletics plays at the university. Not every faculty member or student agrees that liberal arts is important or that STEM matters or that theater has a place at JMU. Some people are happy working in their silos and they are not interested in supporting anything other than their own agendas. My hope is that more people will embrace a larger vision that incorporates many parts of the university and that more people will understand that having great academics and athletics will help JMU as a whole.

The most successful public universities have a focus on academics and athletics in order to provide a number of constituents with a richer college experience and a degree that is recognized on or close to par with other peer institutions. There are tiers to all major public universities and in order to determine our peers, we need to be realistic. For example, 30 years ago, no one would have thought that VA Tech could make any real inroads into UVA's academic strength as a great school. VA Tech made a decision to move their football program into Division 1 (now called FBS) and there was a belief that football could be the front porch for VA Tech and attract better students and faculty to Southwestern VA (not the most attractive part of the Commonwealth). VA Tech has been able to use football as a way to increase revenue to increase faculty salaries and create more scholarships. Many of the VA Tech athletic donors have also been turned into academic donors. VA Tech has done a very good job with their Honors program and they are offering many different scholarships to entice students to pick them over UVA. JMU has many students that consider VA Tech and JMU and many of those students choose VA Tech for a variety of reasons and one of the biggest reason is "big football." Many exceptional students also want good sports in order to have the well rounded college experience. They want bragging rights when they choose a school. VA Tech has bragging rights in sports and in academics. VA Tech is no longer the "safety school" it was when I was growing up. If you were not going to be an engineer, a veterinarian or a farmer, you normally didn't go to VA Tech in 1981. UVA was #1 and JMU, an up and coming school, was in the mix with VA Tech for great students in the early '80s. When students are making decisions on where to go to school in Richmond, I am one of the JMU alums that is contacted by a number of parents and high school students. I constantly hear many parents and students say that one of the big factors in the decision is having "big football" at the university they choose. JMU's success in football since 2004 has opened the door to many students that see JMU football as a real selling point. JMU's win over VA Tech in 2010 made JMU more relevant on the national stage.

As for alums, there are many ways to turn an athletic donor into an academic donor. There are many examples of how this has happened over the years. Alice and I are one example. The Forbes family is a better example. The Duke Club can provide you with other examples as well. If I were a current member of the faculty senate, I would want to grow the donor base and I would use the athletic donors as a great way to start an endowment for faculty retention and acquisition. Depending on a number of factors, I would be interested in helping to start such a program. I believe such a program is important to building a much needed bridge between the academic and athletic parts of the university.

I am sure that some of the faculty don't like to hear that college sports is important to many students and alums but it's a fact that cannot be ignored or wished away. It is my hope and the hope of many that JMU can become the #2 option in Virginia. JMU will not surpass UVA as the #1 school in the Commonwealth and that's ok. We need to be comfortable in knowing that taking over the #2 spot is fine. In order for JMU to get to #2 and to be a national player, JMU needs to be an FBS football power.

3. Turning to FBS Athletics Feasibility Study prepared by CarrSports (hereinafter the "Carr Report"), the evidence is overwhelming that a move to FBS will provide a positive impact for the university by reducing the amount of student fees that are needed to support Athletics. Some faculty members have seemingly made up their minds about an FBS move even before reviewing the Carr Report. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not to their own facts. The entire Carr Report is worth reading but for those that don't want to read it all, I commend everyone to the Fiscal Issues section that is contained in VII beginning on p. 45.

If JMU stays in FCS, the percentage of student fees being used to support athletics will likely increase over time. Generated Revenues will increase substantially if JMU moves to FBS. A definition of Generated Revenues is on p. 46. Simply, there will be more donations, ticket sales (playing better teams = selling out Bridgeforth), football game guarantees (we will be paid more money to play larger FBS schools [usually 2-3 times as much as we receive now with many payouts being between $700,000 - $1,100,000]), conference distributions, corporate sponsorships and TV revenue if we move to FBS. If we stay in FCS, we will see Generated Revenues decline. The best chart to review is on p. 50. The Financial Summary Chart compares JMU at the FCS level and at the FBS level with 3 very viable conferences by 2019. "The financial data indicates that Athletics Generated Revenue will grow at a larger percentage than expenses with a move to an FBS Conference." Carr Report at 50.

The time is now to develop a comprehensive strategic plan that incorporates a FBS move. I hope the faculty senate will give meaningful thought to why JMU Athletics is a vital part of growing the entire university. I made many of the above views known to President Alger, some members of the Board of Visitors, some members of the senior leadership team, and the Athletic Director. I am happy to come on Thursday and testify at this meeting or any other meeting so the faculty senate can ask me any questions and I can participate in the dialog. I am also available to discuss any additional issues with anyone.

Steve

Steven D. Brown
9412 Paigefield Court
Richmond, VA 23229

(10-14-2013 06:46 PM)jmu@uva Wrote:  

(10-14-2013 02:08 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  He's wrong. We might be nationally recognized in publications but we are not a nationally recognized school. Big time football and/or basketball is the only way to do that outside of being an ivy league school or an MIT or something.

I think this is a little shortsighted. Athletics is the only way? This is untrue. We need to offer more post graduate degrees focusing on research. That's a good way to get national attention. Now, I believe it is possible to achieve both FBS football and be a nationally recognized academic institution. Athletics may also help get your name out there, but it can't be the main focus. It always must be secondary to building a university focused on superlative academics, attracting and maintaining the best professors and students, and through research, innovation, and discovery....

Let's list state universities that don't have big football that are nationally recognizable.

This is another e-mail and my response:


From: Steve Brown <sbrown5683@gmail.com>
Date: October 14, 2013 at 4:31:04 PM EDT
To: "Beitzel, Terry Dean - beitzetd" <beitzetd@jmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Silos...

Please call me Steve. I appreciate your point of view. To my knowledge, no decision has been made on this topic. The Carr Report was commissioned to determine the feasibility of moving to FBS. There wouldn't be a comparison with the schools you mention because those schools either don't have football or the football program is too small (UR). Basketball does not bring in the revenue football does.

I thought the Carr Report was objective and I didn't see it as a done deal.

Steve

Steve Brown
9412 Paigefield Court
Richmond, VA 23229



On Oct 14, 2013, at 12:02 PM, "Beitzel, Terry Dean - beitzetd" <beitzetd@jmu.edu> wrote:

Greetings Mr. Brown,

I read both the Carr Report and your email. I agree that life at JMU is better when not lived in "silos", as you state. It seems to me, as someone who studies rhetoric, that The Carr Report is not really "objective" as calimed but has clear goals in how to _develop_ athletics, not really to assess the importance or costs of athletic programs within a regional state university (for example, the report only mentions years JMU teams have advanced to the playoffs, not years they have not advanced). It seems the decisions have already been made and now it is just a matter of trying to justify the decisions that have been made. I think there are bigger issues involved in what is for the good of JMU than what is contained in the Carr Report. For example, I did not see a comparison study of George Mason University (I was there when they went to the Final Four) or other Virginia schools, like Richmond or VCU.

Terry Beitzel, PhD
Assistant Professor of Justice Studies
Moody 213b
James Madison University