CSNbbs

Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

Thanks for sharing JMUDOG.

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

Yeah, these guys don't get it.

(10-14-2013 09:04 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

I want to see us move up so our football program has the opportunity to compete at the highest divisional level just like the rest of our sports do.

That said in my opinion he didn't miss the point; there is no connection between FBS and being a National University. By its definition the reason we're not already a National university is the lack of academic terminal degree programs and high level research.

FBS football may may garner more national exposure but that will make a 0% difference in our US News regional ranking. Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

(10-14-2013 09:12 AM)Whitdragn Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 09:04 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

I want to see us move up so our football program has the opportunity to compete at the highest divisional level just like the rest of our sports do.

That said in my opinion he didn't miss the point; there is no connection between FBS and being a National University. By its definition the reason we're not already a National university is the lack of academic terminal degree programs and high level research.

FBS football may may garner more national exposure but that will make a 0% difference in our US News regional ranking. Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

Very good point you make actually. I just don't understand why we spent so much money upgrading Bridgeforth if we're staying FCS. Also, wouldn't going FBS help increase alumni donations to aid in funding for other academic programs at JMU?

(10-14-2013 09:16 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 09:12 AM)Whitdragn Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 09:04 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

I want to see us move up so our football program has the opportunity to compete at the highest divisional level just like the rest of our sports do.

That said in my opinion he didn't miss the point; there is no connection between FBS and being a National University. By its definition the reason we're not already a National university is the lack of academic terminal degree programs and high level research.

FBS football may may garner more national exposure but that will make a 0% difference in our US News regional ranking. Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

Very good point you make actually. I just don't understand why we spent so much money upgrading Bridgeforth if we're staying FCS. Also, wouldn't going FBS help increase alumni donations to aid in funding for other academic programs at JMU?

Yes, it would.

(10-14-2013 09:12 AM)Whitdragn Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 09:04 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

It was good to see a polite response. However, I think he missed the point, as I understood it, of the connection between athletics (particularly fb) and academics. Insert VT example here again.

I want to see us move up so our football program has the opportunity to compete at the highest divisional level just like the rest of our sports do.

That said in my opinion he didn't miss the point; there is no connection between FBS and being a National University. By its definition the reason we're not already a National university is the lack of academic terminal degree programs and high level research.

FBS football may may garner more national exposure but that will make a 0% difference in our US News regional ranking. Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

I hear you. I would be interested in knowing more about some of those schools you mention (top 50 ranked nat'l). I would assume that they have a long tradition or reputation in particular academic fields, large endowments, or some other niche that sets them apart. What I took from the original email was that the highest level of fb is one way to increase exposure and revenue, not the only way. Just because many of the other top 50 schools you mention don't compete at that level does not preclude it from being a viable part of our overall plan. In addition, we have been a top or near the top ranked public regional university for many years and have well-respected academic programs but have not achieved that next level status as a university. Again, VT is a great example. Solid school with an engineering, veterinary niche that rode athletics to an even higher level.

Dr. Louwers is a good friend and a die hard LSU fan (so he knows all about big time football and the impact it has on the university). He is at every football game rain or shine and is also one of the most level headed faculty members that we have. That being said they are doing their best to make sure the Accounting program and COB gain more national recognition, but his main apprehension surrounds the allocation of funds since they are having trouble getting the extra money to retain faculty members who are constantly being woed by other National universities with deeper pockets.

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

Our education program, business program, and a handful of other programs are nationally ranked. How many people outside of those of us who went to JMU know this???

Athletics can highlight the fact that many of those programs are nationally ranked. We are "recognized" by academic journals/magazines for having top programs but not recognized by the general public because most are unaware of JMU outside our regional footprint.

Athletics will help shine a light on what are already some great academic programs. If I was a professor, I would be excited that all their hard work at making JMU a top academic university may start to get even more recognition.

(10-14-2013 09:21 AM)2Dukes4Life Wrote: [ -> ]Dr. Louwers is a good friend and a die hard LSU fan (so he knows all about big time football and the impact it has on the university). He is at every football game rain or shine and is also one of the most level headed faculty members that we have. That being said they are doing their best to make sure the Accounting program and COB gain more national recognition, but his main apprehension surrounds the allocation of funds since they are having trouble getting the extra money to retain faculty members who are constantly being woed by other National universities with deeper pockets.

[b]they are having trouble getting the extra money to retain faculty members who are constantly being woed by other National universities with deeper pockets[/b]

Due in large part to FBS football!

(10-14-2013 09:16 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Very good point you make actually. I just don't understand why we spent so much money upgrading Bridgeforth if we're staying FCS. Also, wouldn't going FBS help increase alumni donations to aid in funding for other academic programs at JMU?

I agree; I don't think the vision (even from Rose) was to maintain playing at the FCS level. I do think the bulk realignment happened quicker than they had anticipated and with a new president coming in the timing couldn't have been worse for JMU. We'll see what happens in the next few months...

As for increase donations I don't really know for sure, the vast majority of scholarly articles on the subject suggest minimal increases to academic donations due to athletic success beyond a handful of schools. That's not to say increased exposure won't cause some alumni to increase or start new donations.

I think Dr. Louwers was just trying to make a point that some programs at JMU are already getting national attention based on the efforts already applied by dedicated faculty and leaders. So with or without FBS, some programs will get their due recognition. He's right, however, IMHO....FBS may help accelerate that exposure.

I forget the exact number, but the number of Fcs programs that are also national universities is very limited. If you throw out the Ivy League as well, it's even fewer.

I will note Dr. Louwers was 1 of the 2 COB professors at the Duke Club Auction on Friday night. Big supporter of everything JMU including sports but agree I think he is missing part of the picture.

My $.02 cents. I too have to question whether going FBS will lead to more donations to academics. As an example, I commented on a post the other day that was rallying people to donate to the athletic program now to show support for FBS. I suggested that they also donate to academics, to show that it can help both. The overwhelming response to my comment was that academics should "just know" it will lead to more donations, that I was nuts for suggesting that people give more now, and a general denigration of those on the academic side that might not see how this will be a Godsend for them. So, if someone wants to question whether we will really see more academic donations, I can't fault that. The overwhelming response on this board was to not donate and to just insult their intelligence instead. How do you convince anyone with that attitude?

The other point I think the FBS supporters can focus on though is the risk of downside. In other words, what are the chances that a move to FBS will produce less money or support for academics? What is the likelihood it gets worse? It kind of reminds me of the ballot item in Maryland last year about allowing a casino to be built. There were endless adds about how the state would fool people and not end up giving as much money as promised to schools(which was a selling point the pro casino legislators were using). It may very well be true that they don't end up getting all they are promised, but in reality, they are still going to get a lot more than they had before the casino, regardless. So, it might not be as much as the lofty prediction was, but even half of that is a huge boost. I see the same thing here... what is the likelihood that the academic side ends up losing money/donations/etc in the deal? Maybe their is legitimacy in that argument that they will come out worse, but I find that tough to believe.

Regardless, I think if you want to show the school faculty that this is a good move for them, the best thing you could do is show them donation dollars right now. Actions always speak louder than words.

Anyone who has worked or lived outside of the eastern seaboard has experienced the following:

Them: "Where'd you go to school?"

Me: "James Madison University, in Virginia"

Them: "Oh, you guys had that final four run a while back!"

Case in point.

(10-14-2013 10:51 AM)jmuox581 Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone who has worked or lived outside of the eastern seaboard has experienced the following:

Them: "Where'd you go to school?"

Me: "James Madison University, in Virginia"

Them: "Oh, you guys had that final four run a while back!"

Case in point.

When I tell someone I went undergrad at JMU they usually say "oh, that's a great school" Not "oh, they have a good basketball team" or "oh, their athletics are great!".

Most people have no idea of JMU athletics...but most in Virginia have a good sense of JMU's academic reputation. How to get OUTSIDE of Virginia to know about our institution? Personally, I think research is a better answer than athletics. Get some really high profile graduate programs offering cutting edge masters and PHd research with top notch professors in the field...boom, nationally recognized university....

(10-14-2013 09:12 AM)Whitdragn Wrote: [ -> ]Out of the top 50 ranked national university the vast majority of the programs do not have teams competing in FBS football.

That's a bit of an overstatement.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreview...ies/spp+50

Stanford
Duke
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Rice
Notre Dame
UCal
UCLA
USC
Virginia
Wake Forest
Michigan
UNC
Boston College
Ga Tech
Penn State
Illinois
Wisconsin
Florida

19 out of the top 50 national universities have FBS programs, and one can easily say that with the exception of Rice, they're all major football programs. That's hardly the vast majority, and certainly doesn't tell the whole story.

(10-14-2013 09:22 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-14-2013 08:55 AM)JMUDDOG Wrote: [ -> ]Sean,

Thank you for sharing your insights into this important decision for the University. Your argument has merit, but I take issue with your statement that we need FBS “if we wish to become a Nationally recognized University.” While I concede that we may not be nationally recognized in football, we are in many other sports, and more importantly, we are in an academic sense with many of our programs reaching national prominence.

Having said that, I look forward to an open and honest discussion of the benefits (and costs) of moving up.

Go Dukes!

Best regards,

Tim

Professor Tim Louwers
Jackson E. Ramsey Centennial Chair in Business
James Madison University
540.568.3027
louwertj@jmu.edu

Our education program, business program, and a handful of other programs are nationally ranked. How many people outside of those of us who went to JMU know this???

Athletics can highlight the fact that many of those programs are nationally ranked. We are "recognized" by academic journals/magazines for having top programs but not recognized by the general public because most are unaware of JMU outside our regional footprint.

Athletics will help shine a light on what are already some great academic programs. If I was a professor, I would be excited that all their hard work at making JMU a top academic university may start to get even more recognition.

Yep, good points, Dolley. We are recognized, but the question is "by whom?" If you went to Case Western Reserve, wouldn't you be PO'd to have to constantly explain what a great research institute it is to folks who've never heard of it? Likewise, if you are a JMU business grad you probably take satisfaction that your business friends know it's a great biz school, but annoyed that others think we the same size as W&M.