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Losing Men
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #1
Losing Men
Quote:In 2010, more than 38,000 people killed themselves in the United States – and over 30,000 of them were men, Helen Smith, a forensic psychologist, points out in her book Men on Strike.

“How many of these men had decided to kill themselves because they could no longer see their children, had a broken relationship, or were involved in a bitter divorce?” she asks. “Ironically, even when you look at the suicide statistics, most concern seems to be about women who kill themselves. Apparently, our society cares so little about men that those who kill themselves are hardly news.”

It’s the problem of a culture that often treats men as if there is something inherently wrong with masculinity, with what makes them different from women — and looks to feminize them. Men who are less interested in marriage and responsibility are only being rational in that context, Smith argues. In the wake of the Navy Yard shootings on Monday, Smith talks about violent video games, and men in America, with National Review Online’s Kathryn Jean Lopez.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/35...-interview
09-19-2013 10:25 AM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Losing Men
NICE

Quote:White Knights are typically conservative men who are chivalrous and always trying to protect women and have no problem with biased laws that punish men while protecting women. Uncle Tims are generally liberal guys looking to get sex or political favors by being male sellouts to their own gender. They are the Bill Clinton types who crack down on their own gender, using biased laws such as sexual harassment while sleeping with women and using them.
09-19-2013 10:41 AM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Losing Men
Is there any change between 2010 and 2009? Between 2010 and 2000 or 1990 or 1980?

This is a serious problem, but not a new one.

What worries me most is addressing those that commit suicide by first killing a spouse, child, parent, co-workers, or group of innocents. We talk about gun problems, mass shooting epidemics, etc, but what we have is the conjunction of a suicidal individual (or in rarer cases, a small group) that seek media attention. We ask "what causes these killers to hate others so much?" but what we need to ask is "what causes these guys to hate themselves so much?". Maybe you'd stop the mayhem if psychologists offered patients a choice - red pill or blue pill...
09-19-2013 11:02 AM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Losing Men
This is a pretty good article and asks some good questions. I think there needs to be a focus on young men, as teenage boys and young men seem at risk of self-destructive behavior, whether suicide or drugs, etc.
09-19-2013 11:14 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 10:41 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  NICE

Quote:White Knights are typically conservative men who are chivalrous and always trying to protect women and have no problem with biased laws that punish men while protecting women. Uncle Tims are generally liberal guys looking to get sex or political favors by being male sellouts to their own gender. They are the Bill Clinton types who crack down on their own gender, using biased laws such as sexual harassment while sleeping with women and using them.

DOn't know that using the term "White Knight" is wise given how some will take it... Maybe "Shining Knight"...
09-19-2013 01:17 PM
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Lush Online
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Post: #6
RE: Losing Men
this is interesting. of all the books i've read, the humorous ones, the men are idiots. but those books are also written by men. i've only read a handful of books by female authors and they can be funny but not in a self deprecating way. i've certainly not read a book by a female author where the protagonist is a doofus. imo, i feel that the men i know haven't a problem with their so called second class stature or whatever it is it's called. but it is interesting for not so small a sample as i've got awesome friends.
09-19-2013 01:20 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 10:41 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  NICE

Quote:White Knights are typically conservative men who are chivalrous and always trying to protect women and have no problem with biased laws that punish men while protecting women. Uncle Tims are generally liberal guys looking to get sex or political favors by being male sellouts to their own gender. They are the Bill Clinton types who crack down on their own gender, using biased laws such as sexual harassment while sleeping with women and using them.

Yeah, this has been picking up attention over the past several years. I no longer tolerate white knights.
09-19-2013 03:29 PM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Losing Men
TV commercials are a good cultural marker. For many years, men have been portrayed as idiots, dolts, and the butt of jokes in American advertising. Rarely, maybe in 2% of all cases, the joke is on the woman. The rest of the time, it's the man who comes off as the fool.

American culture is extremely anti-male. Masculinity is mocked, divorce laws are anti-father, etc., etc. That's just the way it is.

I sure did pick the wrong time to be a white, Christian, middle-aged male.
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2013 04:34 PM by UConn-SMU.)
09-19-2013 04:32 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 04:32 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  TV commercials are a good cultural marker. For many years, men have been portrayed as idiots, dolts, and the butt of jokes in American advertising. Rarely, maybe in 2% of all cases, the joke is on the woman. The rest of the time, it's the man who comes off as the fool.

Doing it the other way leads to outrage.

Check out the Berenstein Bears. Disgusting, yet even fathers claim to love them. I shed no tears when the Berenstein's died.
09-19-2013 04:40 PM
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Motown Bronco Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 04:32 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  TV commercials are a good cultural marker. For many years, men have been portrayed as idiots, dolts, and the butt of jokes in American advertising.

Men in Beer Commercials - A Primer.
09-19-2013 04:59 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Losing Men
Haven't white males killed themselves more than any other group in America for a long time?
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2013 05:28 PM by nomad2u2001.)
09-19-2013 05:28 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Losing Men
Things like this are why we need shows like The Cosby Show on the air if we're talking about the media.
09-19-2013 05:34 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 05:28 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Haven't white males killed themselves more than any other group in America for a long time?

And you inject race into this why?
09-19-2013 06:00 PM
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JOwl Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 10:25 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
Quote:In 2010, more than 38,000 people killed themselves in the United States – and over 30,000 of them were men, Helen Smith, a forensic psychologist, points out in her book Men on Strike.

“How many of these men had decided to kill themselves because they could no longer see their children, had a broken relationship, or were involved in a bitter divorce?” she asks. “Ironically, even when you look at the suicide statistics, most concern seems to be about women who kill themselves. Apparently, our society cares so little about men that those who kill themselves are hardly news.”

It’s the problem of a culture that often treats men as if there is something inherently wrong with masculinity, with what makes them different from women — and looks to feminize them. Men who are less interested in marriage and responsibility are only being rational in that context, Smith argues. In the wake of the Navy Yard shootings on Monday, Smith talks about violent video games, and men in America, with National Review Online’s Kathryn Jean Lopez.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/35...-interview

The supposition of the cause holds no water for me.

That says that 79% of the suicides in 2010 were male. According to WHO data ( http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevent...index.html ), that's the lowest it's been since 1980, although really the percentage has been essentially flat -- a low of 78% in 1980 and a high of 82% in 1995.
Looking further back, it dipped as low as 72% in 1970, but was 78% back in 1955. (The data shows a peak of 88% in 1950, but that just doesn't look trustworthy to me).

So essentially the fraction of suicides that were male were the same in 1955 as they were in 2010. Are they trying to tell me that this is a phenomena explained by a culture that tries to "feminize" men? If so, then they must believe our culture was equal as feminizing in the 1950's. Does anyone here believe that?

Also, looking at raw suicide rates (not comparing between men and women, just looking at men), it was 17.7 per 100k men in 2005, which was the lowest it had been since 1970 when it was 16.7 per 100k men. Again, the current state of our culture hasn't seemed to move the needle any.

And trying from a different perspective, how about in other countries where men are "expected to act like men"? The first country that comes to mind is Mexico, with the whole machismo thing. Well, in 2008, 81% of the suicides were by men.

There is zero support for this article's contentions.
09-19-2013 06:02 PM
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JOwl Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 11:14 AM)I45owl Wrote:  This is a pretty good article and asks some good questions. I think there needs to be a focus on young men, as teenage boys and young men seem at risk of self-destructive behavior, whether suicide or drugs, etc.

According the WHO data I linked above, the male suicide rate peaks at 25.2 per 100k in the 45-54 age range, and then drops off until it spikes to 37.8 at 75+ (which I assume is primarily due to self-euthanasia for health reasons).

FWIW, female rates exhibit the same pattern. It's a bit surprising to learn that the suicide rates for the 15-24 age range are the lowest except for the 5-14 range.

Looking at that, I would guess that suicide most correlates with stress, even more so than depression. I would guess the explanation for such a disparately high suicide rate among is due to traditional gender themselves, rather than our current society's subversion of traditional gender roles as the article suggests. I.e., it's the stress of men's traditional "provider" role that is the major cause for suicide among men. That's just a guess, though.
09-19-2013 06:11 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 06:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 05:28 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Haven't white males killed themselves more than any other group in America for a long time?

And you inject race into this why?

I really didn't mean anything by it. It is overwhelming though.
09-19-2013 06:16 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 06:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 06:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 05:28 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Haven't white males killed themselves more than any other group in America for a long time?

And you inject race into this why?

I really didn't mean anything by it. It is overwhelming though.

Its irreverent. Putting aside the statistically meaningless nature of your post it would still have no bearing at all on the conversation.
09-19-2013 06:59 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Losing Men
People own themselves. Taking one's own life is sad for many reasons..but..I support that choice.
09-19-2013 07:14 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 06:59 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 06:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 06:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 05:28 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Haven't white males killed themselves more than any other group in America for a long time?

And you inject race into this why?

I really didn't mean anything by it. It is overwhelming though.

Its irreverent. Putting aside the statistically meaningless nature of your post it would still have no bearing at all on the conversation.

I think you meant 'irrelevant' and it very well could be.
09-19-2013 08:14 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Losing Men
(09-19-2013 08:14 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 06:59 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 06:16 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 06:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-19-2013 05:28 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Haven't white males killed themselves more than any other group in America for a long time?

And you inject race into this why?

I really didn't mean anything by it. It is overwhelming though.

Its irreverent. Putting aside the statistically meaningless nature of your post it would still have no bearing at all on the conversation.

I think you meant 'irrelevant' and it very well could be.

Yea auto correct got me and yes, it very well is irrelevant
09-19-2013 08:37 PM
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