(06-27-2013 12:17 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Education is as much about eliminating downside risk and providing more options as it is about climbing the proverbial ladder.

You made my day with your entire post, mate...very well stated!!

(06-27-2013 12:17 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I do think a lot of it is generational. It's a completely different work environment today compared to 30 years ago and expectations are simply different. The experiences in the job marketplace of everyone born prior to 1975 or so are almost irrelevant to people born after that time - the baseline requirements to apply for even the most basic jobs are so much higher today that I don't think a lot of people from prior generations fully understand or appreciate. I don't mean that as a slight to the prior generations - it's just a recognition that the "old rules" don't necessarily apply in a realistic manner today.

My belief is that education isn't a guarantee of success, but it would also be foolish for anyone to think that education isn't the best way to *reasonably* position yourselves for success in today's world. We can all point to anecdotes of the high school or college dropout that went onto make gazillions of dollars (although note that guys like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of *Harvard*, which is a little bit different than romanticizing the job prospects of the average high school slacker) and if you own your own business, then there's going to be different set of skills that may not relate to a degree at all. However, for the vast majority of the population that has to work for someone else, there's a very clear and direct connection between education and income, and that's only increasingly the case with each passing generation. Think of it another way: Gates and Zuckerberg might have dropped out of college, but let's see how far you'll get if you try to apply for a job at Microsoft or Facebook if *you* don't have a college degree.

If anyone has read the "Millionaire Next Door" from several years ago, it goes in depth about the types of people that end up being millionaires and their spending habits. One interesting point is that millionaires are disproportionately business owners (which isn't a surprise) that generally had higher levels of education than the general population but not necessarily the *highest* levels of education (which is a little bit more of a surprise). This wasn't a group that was filled with PhDs, doctors and lawyers.

However, when it came to their *own* children, they also spared no expense to ensure that they went to the best schools and received the most education possible (even though much of that flew in the face of what made many of those people millionaires in the first place, where they didn't devote years and years to extra schooling in lieu of building their businesses). This was despite the fact that this group was relatively thrifty when it came to other items like houses and luxury cars. So, the one thing that virtually none of those millionaires would compromise on was the quality of education for their own children. Most of those millionaires had enough self-awareness to know that they needed quite a few breaks outside of their control to get to their financial position, whereas those with more education generally have much more control and can minimize downside risk. It's an extremely interesting dynamic in play - those entrepreneurs often didn't want their own children to go through what they had to go through even though they were successful. Education is as much about eliminating downside risk and providing more options as it is about climbing the proverbial ladder.

Education is the best route and maybe the only way "up and out" economically for lower, working class and middle class people.

Additionally, getting an education has benefits outside of one's career path and earnings capacity.

Higher education is not merely a "trade school" for a better career and more income (although it is that).

It is also a way to learn how to critically think, to learn about the world and people around you and to learn how the world (and you/others) got to this particular point in time and space.

History, geography, science, art, politics, etc...are subjects that increase your knowledge base of the world and understanding how different countries, people and cultures came to be who and what they are.

Working towards and getting a degree or degrees is also a milestone, an achievement, something that you and your family can look at with some pride and satisfaction.

It can personally enrich your life outside of increased earnings and job opportunities.

(06-27-2013 08:23 AM)Tiger8589 Wrote:  

(06-21-2013 11:38 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(06-21-2013 01:36 PM)Tiger8589 Wrote:  Do you think you possess the same type of critical thinking, leadership, and problem solving skills to go along with a can do attitude to lead others as let’s say an enlisted USMC Staff Sgt with 10 years of service (whether if be infantry, avionics, logistics etc…..) Do you apply these types of principals to your daily work routine?

I would ask two simple questions since we are trying to see who the sharpest knifes in the drawer are?

(1) what is everyone’s real IQ
(2) what is everyone’s annual salary

I think we would both agree that USMC Staff Sgts are pretty sharp knifes, or at least they know how to use one. However they wouldn't score very well on your barometer as having particularly high IQs or salaries, those are just as sweeping generalizations as how many letters you have after your name.

Besides, someone's IQ is a pretty poor measure of intelligence and an even worse measure of competence.

To say Staff Sgt in the marine corps doesn't " have particularly high IQ's" probably qulifies as the most ignorant posting I've ever seen.

Do you think Staff Sgt is the highest rank achievable of an enlisted Marine.

Many of these people retire at 38/40 years old and then continue to work.

So exactly what is a good measure of intelligence and competence? I know lots of college grads that are about as clueless and incompetent as it gets.

So I say that I think Marine Staff Sgts will probably not have particularly high IQs, but are "pretty sharp knives" i.e. intelligent and then I stated that IQ is a poor measure of intelligence.

The fact that someone like a NCO, an experienced and dedicated leader of men would not measure that highly on an intelligence test shows how bad the test is. IQ tests show if someone can pick the next triangle in a sequence and has little to no credence given to the kind of intelligence it takes to lead people and make decisions under pressure.

You want a good measure of intelligence? Try talking to someone, sit down with them face to face and talk to them. You can do it qualitatively but it's impossible to get a quantitative measure of overall intelligence. A high IQ might help you find code breakers, that's probably about it. I would say that 15-20 years of hard service and promotion in a competitive environment is a better measure of intelligence than an IQ test, that's far more impressive to me than someone being a member of Mensa.

You said that you would measure someone's sharpness by their paycheck and their IQ. You also said that a Staff Sgt in the USMC is the kind of person who has the qualities of leadership and decision making that you would look for. I pointed out that those two things are not consistent.

IQ =/= intelligence

My father in law is a retired Marine Gunnery Sergeant.

My nephew is a First Sergeant in the U.S. Army.

My son, a senior at LSU majoring in civil engineering, is a Sergeant in the Marine Corps Reserve.

I would put their IQ up against people with advanced degrees holding high positions in business and in academia.

(06-27-2013 03:17 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(06-27-2013 08:23 AM)Tiger8589 Wrote:  

(06-21-2013 11:38 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(06-21-2013 01:36 PM)Tiger8589 Wrote:  Do you think you possess the same type of critical thinking, leadership, and problem solving skills to go along with a can do attitude to lead others as let’s say an enlisted USMC Staff Sgt with 10 years of service (whether if be infantry, avionics, logistics etc…..) Do you apply these types of principals to your daily work routine?

I would ask two simple questions since we are trying to see who the sharpest knifes in the drawer are?

(1) what is everyone’s real IQ
(2) what is everyone’s annual salary

I think we would both agree that USMC Staff Sgts are pretty sharp knifes, or at least they know how to use one. However they wouldn't score very well on your barometer as having particularly high IQs or salaries, those are just as sweeping generalizations as how many letters you have after your name.

Besides, someone's IQ is a pretty poor measure of intelligence and an even worse measure of competence.

To say Staff Sgt in the marine corps doesn't " have particularly high IQ's" probably qulifies as the most ignorant posting I've ever seen.

Do you think Staff Sgt is the highest rank achievable of an enlisted Marine.

Many of these people retire at 38/40 years old and then continue to work.

So exactly what is a good measure of intelligence and competence? I know lots of college grads that are about as clueless and incompetent as it gets.

So I say that I think Marine Staff Sgts will probably not have particularly high IQs, but are "pretty sharp knives" i.e. intelligent and then I stated that IQ is a poor measure of intelligence.

The fact that someone like a NCO, an experienced and dedicated leader of men would not measure that highly on an intelligence test shows how bad the test is. IQ tests show if someone can pick the next triangle in a sequence and has little to no credence given to the kind of intelligence it takes to lead people and make decisions under pressure.

You want a good measure of intelligence? Try talking to someone, sit down with them face to face and talk to them. You can do it qualitatively but it's impossible to get a quantitative measure of overall intelligence. A high IQ might help you find code breakers, that's probably about it. I would say that 15-20 years of hard service and promotion in a competitive environment is a better measure of intelligence than an IQ test, that's far more impressive to me than someone being a member of Mensa.

You said that you would measure someone's sharpness by their paycheck and their IQ. You also said that a Staff Sgt in the USMC is the kind of person who has the qualities of leadership and decision making that you would look for. I pointed out that those two things are not consistent.

IQ =/= intelligence

IQ is just part of the equation for any individual. Leadership skills, willingness to work hard, discipline, focus, commitment, and willingness to take risks, for instance, all have little to do with intelligence but are all critical to success. (Leadership may be related to social intelligence, which is completely different than IQ). Decision making is a practical skill that requires intelligence to understand the problem and to identify and evaluate the potential solutions. The ability to make the decision, though, is a personality characteristic.

Can we even define intelligence? And if you do well on an IQ test, what exactly does that indicate?

With each passing day, "education" in this country becomes more and more about getting a credential and less and less about actually learning something useful. Increasing your true intellectual firepower is no longer the point of college. It's all about getting past the gatekeepers.

The colleges are well aware of their gate keeping position, and they leverage it for profit just like any other enterprise would, no matter what their tax status is. Keep your nose clean, study as little as possible, tolerate their left-wing political indoctrination (and maybe even buy into it), and they will reward you with the back stage pass you need to get a "real" job.

At some point, people will see that the emperor has no clothes, and this system will collapse.

Things have changed over time. Not going to college now is a risky proposition as it is essentially required for the vast majority of well-paying jobs. Although it's very easy to be highly educated and still lack "common sense" it's probably more true that any young adult who doesn't complete college today is lacking in "common sense". However, the kids who go to college at the greatest and costliest institutions of higher learning in the world with no ambition other than to get a piece of paper with the minimum amount of effort while piling up 6 figure student loan debts are bigger morons.

Also, seeing a well-educated person flounder outside his field of expertise tends to make anti-intellectual people pretty happy. It turns out that being really good at one thing and letting other stuff slide is an effective strategy for those who want to make a lot of money, have job security, live a life less burdened with tedious worries, and attract beautiful women. That seems like a pretty "common sense" way to get through life.

(06-27-2013 05:43 PM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  With each passing day, "education" in this country becomes more and more about getting a credential and less and less about actually learning something useful. Increasing your true intellectual firepower is no longer the point of college. It's all about getting past the gatekeepers.

The colleges are well aware of their gate keeping position, and they leverage it for profit just like any other enterprise would, no matter what their tax status is. Keep your nose clean, study as little as possible, tolerate their left-wing political indoctrination (and maybe even buy into it), and they will reward you with the back stage pass you need to get a "real" job.

At some point, people will see that the emperor has no clothes, and this system will collapse.

What you are saying is exactly true. I got my B.A. early in life and returned later in life for my 3 year Master's program. I did well the first time around. I was top 1% the second time. I didn't change. There were many bright capable students present in my undergraduate years. They all knew how to read and process what the writer was saying, categorize the message, analyze the arguments and write either an agreement with, or argue counter to, the points made in the material.

During my undergraduate days you were entitled to any opinion position as long as you could back it up. When I returned for my Masters in a top 20 school exactly the opposite was true. You dared not differ from the instructor in opinion. In many cases the text books used were written by the instructor or another faculty member within the department and the introduction of materials not pre-approved would meet with less than stellar results. The trick to scoring well the second time around was to use the buzz words they wanted you to use, but to use them in ways that did not compromise your position.

For three years this approach maxed out the grading system. I finished 3rd out of 320 plus. The funny thing is that if any of them had actually spent time analyzing what I had actually written I probably would have met with a bit less success. But true to their natures the instructors really didn't care what the students had to say as long as the approved nomenclature was present in the work. In other words they skimmed the papers to see if we were all good little repeaters.

My entire undergraduate degree cost about $15,000 and was worth every penny. My Masters cost me $64,000 in just books and tuition and as far as educational value was concerned a reading list would have given me the same education. It was three years of a P.C. farce and prepared the younger kids I was there with to accomplish nothing. Most of that generation had never been taught: Logic (culturally biased to the Eurocentric position), Western Civilization (culturally biased to the Eurocentric Male perspective), Constitutional History or Theory, World History, Comparative Government (since they had no idea about their own I guess learning others would have been a stretch), Grammar (I helped with a tutorial for incoming grad students for a Masters in a communications field and they did not have the skills to have passed English 101 in undergraduate school for what would have been my era in school).

In that tutorial I had students from North Carolina, Duke, Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, Clemson, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia Tech, Florida, Texas, Texas A&M, Miami, Florida State, Tulane, L.S.U., the Mississippi schools, Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas State, Kansas, and many other smaller colleges come through the class. The problems that were present included the inability to complete sentences (fragments), run-ons, subject verb agreement issues, the inability to form a paragraph, the inability to coherently state a position, and the list goes on.

Needless to say I was appalled. Each of these students had graduated from some of the "finest schools in the Southeast and Southwest" and had done so in most cases with honors. I told my wife we were in the beginnings of a new dark age. So far I have found nothing to make me rethink that position.

Brother the Emperor is butt naked already and has his privates dragging in the mud. I'm not so sure that the collapse hasn't already begun. We have fraud in all levels of government, banking, business, infrastructure maintenance, and obviously in education. It stifles individual initiative, innovation, private business, and is pervasive to some degree in all new innovations in electronics.

I shared a hobby with a founding CEO of a financial corporation. One day we were chatting about his company's investment in one of the state schools. I asked him if his company gleaned the top students from their computer and accounting departments. He said *&*% no. We don't want A students. C students can't figure out how to steal. Now when I think about his reply it makes a great deal of sense within the context of what is going on in the world. The corporations want top Ivy people for management and R&D, and they want the worker bees who are competent enough to work hard, but too dumb to upset the apple cart, coming in from everywhere else. The former will one day move up the corporate ladder. The latter ones will be expendable before they are due benefits.

(06-27-2013 06:55 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Things have changed over time. Not going to college now is a risky proposition as it is essentially required for the vast majority of well-paying jobs. Although it's very easy to be highly educated and still lack "common sense" it's probably more true that any young adult who doesn't complete college today is lacking in "common sense". However, the kids who go to college at the greatest and costliest institutions of higher learning in the world with no ambition other than to get a piece of paper with the minimum amount of effort while piling up 6 figure student loan debts are bigger morons.

Also, seeing a well-educated person flounder outside his field of expertise tends to make anti-intellectual people pretty happy. It turns out that being really good at one thing and letting other stuff slide is an effective strategy for those who want to make a lot of money, have job security, live a life less burdened with tedious worries, and attract beautiful women. That seems like a pretty "common sense" way to get through life.

It is a safe way not a "common sense" way to get through life. If you don't know enough to be well rounded you will never see the bigger picture and therefore never be considered a threat. That kind of strategy will pay off in trinkets, bobbles and babes, but it will leave you feeling hollow in the self worth department. And when innovation passes by your one little niche it's all over.

However, I do agree totally with your first point. But it is more about credentialing than education. A high school diploma earns little to no advantage over minimum wage. A college degree gets you an introductory job in a company. A Masters might get you into low level management. Hard work, understanding office politics and finding ways to be productive that exceed company expectations will open doors, especially if you are willing to let others take some credit for your success. It's disgusting but it is the way it works. Then finally you have to know how far they want you to progress. If you know that then you will not get your dreams surprisingly dashed which will help you keep your attitude good and know when to look for a lateral move, or promotion, outside of your company.

(06-27-2013 07:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-27-2013 06:55 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Things have changed over time. Not going to college now is a risky proposition as it is essentially required for the vast majority of well-paying jobs. Although it's very easy to be highly educated and still lack "common sense" it's probably more true that any young adult who doesn't complete college today is lacking in "common sense". However, the kids who go to college at the greatest and costliest institutions of higher learning in the world with no ambition other than to get a piece of paper with the minimum amount of effort while piling up 6 figure student loan debts are bigger morons.

Also, seeing a well-educated person flounder outside his field of expertise tends to make anti-intellectual people pretty happy. It turns out that being really good at one thing and letting other stuff slide is an effective strategy for those who want to make a lot of money, have job security, live a life less burdened with tedious worries, and attract beautiful women. That seems like a pretty "common sense" way to get through life.

It is a safe way not a "common sense" way to get through life. If you don't know enough to be well rounded you will never see the bigger picture and therefore never be considered a threat. That kind of strategy will pay off in trinkets, bobbles and babes, but it will leave you feeling hollow in the self worth department. And when innovation passes by your one little niche it's all over.

However, I do agree totally with your first point. But it is more about credentialing than education. A high school diploma earns little to no advantage over minimum wage. A college degree gets you an introductory job in a company. A Masters might get you into low level management. Hard work, understanding office politics and finding ways to be productive that exceed company expectations will open doors, especially if you are willing to let others take some credit for your success. It's disgusting but it is the way it works. Then finally you have to know how far they want you to progress. If you know that then you will not get your dreams surprisingly dashed which will help you keep your attitude good and know when to look for a lateral move, or promotion, outside of your company.

I think being focused is very effective, but it requires periodic honest reappraisal of your niche. I started my own company after HS at 18 in a niche field that I had been working in since I was 14. By the time I was 22 it was clear that Monsanto was going to step in and that I had better find something else to do. After 13 years of undergrad, grad, and post grad education I got a job on the leading edge of a very niche industry. Last year I saw that that industry was 5 years from obsolescence, so it was on to a new area of expertise. Jumping in head first and feeling overwhelmed at first is a terrifying, but finding your feet is thrilling and definitely pays off in measures beyond bobbles and trinkets. It pays to focus, but you can't be afraid to change.

(06-27-2013 08:41 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  

(06-27-2013 07:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-27-2013 06:55 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Things have changed over time. Not going to college now is a risky proposition as it is essentially required for the vast majority of well-paying jobs. Although it's very easy to be highly educated and still lack "common sense" it's probably more true that any young adult who doesn't complete college today is lacking in "common sense". However, the kids who go to college at the greatest and costliest institutions of higher learning in the world with no ambition other than to get a piece of paper with the minimum amount of effort while piling up 6 figure student loan debts are bigger morons.

Also, seeing a well-educated person flounder outside his field of expertise tends to make anti-intellectual people pretty happy. It turns out that being really good at one thing and letting other stuff slide is an effective strategy for those who want to make a lot of money, have job security, live a life less burdened with tedious worries, and attract beautiful women. That seems like a pretty "common sense" way to get through life.

It is a safe way not a "common sense" way to get through life. If you don't know enough to be well rounded you will never see the bigger picture and therefore never be considered a threat. That kind of strategy will pay off in trinkets, bobbles and babes, but it will leave you feeling hollow in the self worth department. And when innovation passes by your one little niche it's all over.

However, I do agree totally with your first point. But it is more about credentialing than education. A high school diploma earns little to no advantage over minimum wage. A college degree gets you an introductory job in a company. A Masters might get you into low level management. Hard work, understanding office politics and finding ways to be productive that exceed company expectations will open doors, especially if you are willing to let others take some credit for your success. It's disgusting but it is the way it works. Then finally you have to know how far they want you to progress. If you know that then you will not get your dreams surprisingly dashed which will help you keep your attitude good and know when to look for a lateral move, or promotion, outside of your company.

I think being focused is very effective, but it requires periodic honest reappraisal of your niche. I started my own company after HS at 18 in a niche field that I had been working in since I was 14. By the time I was 22 it was clear that Monsanto was going to step in and that I had better find something else to do. After 13 years of undergrad, grad, and post grad education I got a job on the leading edge of a very niche industry. Last year I saw that that industry was 5 years from obsolescence, so it was on to a new area of expertise. Jumping in head first and feeling overwhelmed at first is a terrifying, but finding your feet is thrilling and definitely pays off in measures beyond bobbles and trinkets. It pays to focus, but you can't be afraid to change.

Kudos! You have what it takes. Adapt, innovate, and overcome as those wily Marines would teach.

All this education and yet there are so many on message boards that don't know the difference between so many basic words. People should know the difference between the following:

there, their, and they're
to and too
your and you're
affect and effect
fair and fare

This is all stuff anyone with an 8th grade education should know, or anyone that reads for that matter. There is no excuse for a college graduate to not know this stuff.

(06-18-2013 12:51 PM)nachoman91 Wrote:  I simply do not believe the results of this poll are accurate. Too many people on this board want people to think they are more educated than actuality. I don't buy that 1/4 of the people here have doctorate degrees. Less than 1% of Americans over the age of 25 have doctorates but yet 25% of the people on this board do?

A board devoted to college sports having a high percentage of people who actually graduated from college? Sounds like witchcraft to me!

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

BA in Economics from Pitt.

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

BSEET from West Virginia Institute of Technology

MAPM from Cincinnati Christian University

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2