(06-13-2013 12:30 PM)brista21 Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 12:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 11:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think mis-matched agendas was as big of a deal as many will say in wrapping up the story of the old Big East.

I think of the old Big East as a small conglomerate corporation that a corporate raider looks at and realizes pieces sold to the right bidders are worth more than the company as a whole.

Look at the old Big East football. It is all in the ACC except West Virginia and Temple. Miami with Florida State has more value than the two in different leagues. BC was an interesting "investment" for the ACC but adding Syracuse will make the BC worth more and so on. Duke at Louisville in basketball was some serious value.

When Cincy was undefeated there was more debate over whether Cincy should be #3 or #4 than debate over whether they should be #2 or #3.

The Big East hoop schools figured out they had more value with other hoop schools than propping up the league in football.

The Big East was a collection of assets that had more value elsewhere.

Ultimately, that's obviously true but it's also shallow analysis. I definitely agree with those who say that culture had as much to do with the Big East's demise as anything else.

You have to remember that all of those Big East schools' respective football cultures were built around the mindset of each of us operating as independents for decades. That is a PROFOUNDLY different mentality than the rah-rah, go league mentality that has always been favored in most other parts of the country.

That independent mindset had a PROFOUND impact on everything everyone did and it didn't start in 2003 when the ACC initially raided the Big East or even in 1993 when the football conference was formed. It started decades before it ever reached that point and it repeatedly hurt the Big East over the years.

That mentality is why an all sports Eastern Conference never came to fruition with Penn State as an anchor member and it is also why the Nittany Lions were never invited to join the Big East. It is also why, IMHO, ultimately the Big East fell apart.

This is not to absolve anyone of their mistakes along the way as a lot of schools/people made them along the way. However the biggest problem was always that independent mindset, IMHO.

I agree with this. I do think this played a big role in things.

That pretty much sums up eastern football. RIP...

(06-13-2013 12:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That FLOORED me as I had never experienced anything like that before: a conference pride cheer. No fan of the old Big East would have ever left a big win by chanting "Go Big East" or anything like that. We would chant something more school specific like "Let's Go Pitt" or something like that.

That was a HUGE cultural difference and I think that is emblematic of why one league has been decimated to the point that it is now being re-branded while the other continues to flourish.

Ironically, I could see this happening with the "new" Big East--there's much more shared identity, a feeling of basketball-onlies against the world. A year or two ago, UConn or Georgetown or Syracuse winning in the NCAAs would help St Johns a bit in perception, but man, f--- those guys. Now, Georgetown and Villanova and Marquette are our brothers-in-arms, veterans of the "realignment wars" against the football schools and the ACC defectors.

I could imagine a "Go Big East" chant at next years' NCAAs.

(06-13-2013 12:28 PM)brista21 Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 09:57 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I'm guessing that he is talking about West Virginia, Louisville, Rutgers and Connecticut here but I cannot be sure. Does anyone else have any thoughts?

Actually I'm thinking more WVU and UConn in particular. Rutgers, Syracuse and Pitt were pretty well established as being the old boys block trying to stabilize things. I believe Louisville was very much part of that as well but from the newer school group.

This is what I heard too. Interesting how 4 of the 5 schools that ultimately left were the ones trying to stay. Sounds like some of those American schools got a rude awakening.

In retrospect, if the football schools had split and formed this:

Football&Basketball[/b
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
East Carolina
Central Florida
South Florida
TCU
Houston
Boise State
BYU
[b]Basketball
Notre Dame
Georgetown

We might be talking P6 instead of P5 right now. However, we will never know that.

The ACC offering Cuse was no surprise to me...however, when the rumor came out in the media shortly before the announcement was the first time I heard it. Syracuse had been talking to both the ACC and the B1G.

At the time I think all these teams were talking to somebody:

UConn
Cuse
Rutgers
Pitt
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
South Florida
TCU
Notre Dame

(06-13-2013 01:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 12:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That FLOORED me as I had never experienced anything like that before: a conference pride cheer. No fan of the old Big East would have ever left a big win by chanting "Go Big East" or anything like that. We would chant something more school specific like "Let's Go Pitt" or something like that.

That was a HUGE cultural difference and I think that is emblematic of why one league has been decimated to the point that it is now being re-branded while the other continues to flourish.

Ironically, I could see this happening with the "new" Big East--there's much more shared identity, a feeling of basketball-onlies against the world. A year or two ago, UConn or Georgetown or Syracuse winning in the NCAAs would help St Johns a bit in perception, but man, f--- those guys. Now, Georgetown and Villanova and Marquette are our brothers-in-arms, veterans of the "realignment wars" against the football schools and the ACC defectors.

I could imagine a "Go Big East" chant at next years' NCAAs.

You mean you're going to be really upset when Georgetown loses in the first round again next year?

(06-13-2013 01:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 12:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That FLOORED me as I had never experienced anything like that before: a conference pride cheer. No fan of the old Big East would have ever left a big win by chanting "Go Big East" or anything like that. We would chant something more school specific like "Let's Go Pitt" or something like that.

That was a HUGE cultural difference and I think that is emblematic of why one league has been decimated to the point that it is now being re-branded while the other continues to flourish.

Ironically, I could see this happening with the "new" Big East--there's much more shared identity, a feeling of basketball-onlies against the world. A year or two ago, UConn or Georgetown or Syracuse winning in the NCAAs would help St Johns a bit in perception, but man, f--- those guys. Now, Georgetown and Villanova and Marquette are our brothers-in-arms, veterans of the "realignment wars" against the football schools and the ACC defectors.

I could imagine a "Go Big East" chant at next years' NCAAs.

You might be right, John. There is that brothers in arms thing and that should help. Also, almost all of the remaining Big East schools are Catholic schools and all of them are private institutions and that too will make a difference.

Additionally, basketball is a completely different animal than football and the Big East's teams did think more collectively on the basketball side of things than they ever did in football where it was always basically every man for himself.

I love pieces like this where people in charge decide to be very candid and let us schlubs really know how things went.

The fact that this AD and Swofford were the one's in contact perhaps even adds credence to statements made by AD's about realignment. Personally for the most part I havn't put a lot of weight in them and only looked at them as interesting comments by persons more in the know than myself.

(06-13-2013 02:37 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 01:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 12:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That FLOORED me as I had never experienced anything like that before: a conference pride cheer. No fan of the old Big East would have ever left a big win by chanting "Go Big East" or anything like that. We would chant something more school specific like "Let's Go Pitt" or something like that.

That was a HUGE cultural difference and I think that is emblematic of why one league has been decimated to the point that it is now being re-branded while the other continues to flourish.

Ironically, I could see this happening with the "new" Big East--there's much more shared identity, a feeling of basketball-onlies against the world. A year or two ago, UConn or Georgetown or Syracuse winning in the NCAAs would help St Johns a bit in perception, but man, f--- those guys. Now, Georgetown and Villanova and Marquette are our brothers-in-arms, veterans of the "realignment wars" against the football schools and the ACC defectors.

I could imagine a "Go Big East" chant at next years' NCAAs.

You might be right, John. There is that brothers in arms thing and that should help. Also, almost all of the remaining Big East schools are Catholic schools and all of them are private institutions and that too will make a difference.

Additionally, basketball is a completely different animal than football and the Big East's teams did think more collectively on the basketball side of things than they ever did in football where it was always basically every man for himself.

Not sure I agree that this type of thing did not exist in the old Big East gentlemen. While I never heard a "Big East" chant at a WVU game, I certainly heard "ACC" chants after beating Maryland (in a mocking sort of way)....and perhaps even an "SEC" chant after beating Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, although my memory is slightly foggy on that one.




That said, I agree with the sentiment that there was not a great deal of overtly expressed conference pride in the old Big East.

I also remember BCs last year in the BE. Pretty sure they won the regular season bball title, but lost to WVU at the Garden. As the time was ticking off, sounded like every fan in the garden regardless of school was yelling "ACC" in a mocking, sarcastic way. Even the sports page in the daily news the next day said "acc ya later" or something like that. I think there certainly was conference pride in the BE in basketball

Jackson

Outside of the Big Ten/ACC Challenge, which is just a fun event for TV, I can't picture ever chanting for the Big Ten. I'm proud of my Midwestern heritage, but in the best sports moments I want to be cheering for O-H-I-O or telling the world why "We Don't Give a Damn for the Whole State of Michigan" (there are Youtube videos of Ohio State fans signing that after big games in other states).

Plenty of people wanted to blame the non-football schools for the Big East's demise, but I think it was factions within the football schools themselves, who couldn't agree on who to expand with that cut the Big East the deepest.

Navy and Air Force had been on the expansion radar since 2001 and from late 2009-August 2011 the expansion committee was churning out all kinds of possible expansion scenarios (TCU, SMU, Houston, UCF, USM, ECU, and Memphis), but was in deadlock and could only get TCU out of committee to be put up for a vote.

(06-13-2013 12:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 11:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think mis-matched agendas was as big of a deal as many will say in wrapping up the story of the old Big East.

I think of the old Big East as a small conglomerate corporation that a corporate raider looks at and realizes pieces sold to the right bidders are worth more than the company as a whole.

Look at the old Big East football. It is all in the ACC except West Virginia and Temple. Miami with Florida State has more value than the two in different leagues. BC was an interesting "investment" for the ACC but adding Syracuse will make the BC worth more and so on. Duke at Louisville in basketball was some serious value.

When Cincy was undefeated there was more debate over whether Cincy should be #3 or #4 than debate over whether they should be #2 or #3.

The Big East hoop schools figured out they had more value with other hoop schools than propping up the league in football.

The Big East was a collection of assets that had more value elsewhere.

Ultimately, that's obviously true but it's also shallow analysis. I definitely agree with those who say that culture had as much to do with the Big East's demise as anything else.

You have to remember that all of those Big East schools' respective football cultures were built around the mindset of each of us operating as independents for decades. That is a PROFOUNDLY different mentality than the rah-rah, go league mentality that has always been favored in most other parts of the country.

That independent mindset had a PROFOUND impact on everything everyone did and it didn't start in 2003 when the ACC initially raided the Big East or even in 1993 when the football conference was formed. It started decades before it ever reached that point and it repeatedly hurt the Big East over the years.

That mentality is why an all sports Eastern Conference never came to fruition with Penn State as an anchor member and it is also why the Nittany Lions were never invited to join the Big East. It is also why, IMHO, ultimately the Big East fell apart.

This is not to absolve anyone of their mistakes along the way as a lot of schools/people made them along the way. However the biggest problem was always that independent mindset, IMHO.

Assuming the rejected deal was split like the old one, the football members would have made about $12 million each. Pitt was worth more in the ACC than in the Big East. Miami was worth more in the ACC than the Big East.

A culture of conference pride is rare outside the highly successful (SEC, ACC, B1G, P12). They don't have any place to aspire to other than their league. ACC fans when they couldn't secure a bowl for their champ put their pride in the ACC Tournament even when holding it meant a good chance the regular season champion would miss the NCAA Tournament.

You could argue the MAC has league pride but it's been a long-time since a MAC team had real options. The WAC appeared to have it until the MWC formed.

(06-13-2013 12:53 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 12:30 PM)brista21 Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 12:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 11:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think mis-matched agendas was as big of a deal as many will say in wrapping up the story of the old Big East.

I think of the old Big East as a small conglomerate corporation that a corporate raider looks at and realizes pieces sold to the right bidders are worth more than the company as a whole.

Look at the old Big East football. It is all in the ACC except West Virginia and Temple. Miami with Florida State has more value than the two in different leagues. BC was an interesting "investment" for the ACC but adding Syracuse will make the BC worth more and so on. Duke at Louisville in basketball was some serious value.

When Cincy was undefeated there was more debate over whether Cincy should be #3 or #4 than debate over whether they should be #2 or #3.

The Big East hoop schools figured out they had more value with other hoop schools than propping up the league in football.

The Big East was a collection of assets that had more value elsewhere.

Ultimately, that's obviously true but it's also shallow analysis. I definitely agree with those who say that culture had as much to do with the Big East's demise as anything else.

You have to remember that all of those Big East schools' respective football cultures were built around the mindset of each of us operating as independents for decades. That is a PROFOUNDLY different mentality than the rah-rah, go league mentality that has always been favored in most other parts of the country.

That independent mindset had a PROFOUND impact on everything everyone did and it didn't start in 2003 when the ACC initially raided the Big East or even in 1993 when the football conference was formed. It started decades before it ever reached that point and it repeatedly hurt the Big East over the years.

That mentality is why an all sports Eastern Conference never came to fruition with Penn State as an anchor member and it is also why the Nittany Lions were never invited to join the Big East. It is also why, IMHO, ultimately the Big East fell apart.

This is not to absolve anyone of their mistakes along the way as a lot of schools/people made them along the way. However the biggest problem was always that independent mindset, IMHO.

I agree with this. I do think this played a big role in things.

That pretty much sums up eastern football. RIP...

No disagreeing with that. Although I think not getting Army and Navy on board was as much of a red flag.

To that extent, I think the AAC's a goner. There's still a lot of bad blood between these schools.

(06-13-2013 01:45 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  In retrospect, if the football schools had split and formed this:

Football&Basketball[/b
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
East Carolina
Central Florida
South Florida
TCU
Houston
Boise State
BYU
[b]Basketball
Notre Dame
Georgetown

We might be talking P6 instead of P5 right now. However, we will never know that.

There is a ton of snobbishness between universities.

I don't mean any offense to any of those institutions but schools like ND, Syracuse and G'town simply see themselves on a different level. They feel their peers are Duke, UNC, UVA, etc and not ECU, Boise and Central Florida.

So I think that unless the money for that league was off the chart they would have definitely still left.

(06-13-2013 11:56 AM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  The only thing way you could blame Pitt for destroying the Big East is if they voted against ESPN contract while they were in talks with the B12/ACC. If that ESPN contract is approved Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Louisville and Rutgers might still have left, but Boise St., BYU, and SDSU would definitely have come and the odds are good that the BBall schools stick around.

Disagree, The contract would have been opened up and re worked. Likely would have still been pretty good, but well below the offer. Bottom line is the other FB moves would have happened later and the contract opened again. In the end almost everything that happened would have happened.

(06-13-2013 05:40 PM)WNCOrange Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 01:45 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  In retrospect, if the football schools had split and formed this:

Football&Basketball[/b
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
East Carolina
Central Florida
South Florida
TCU
Houston
Boise State
BYU
[b]Basketball
Notre Dame
Georgetown

We might be talking P6 instead of P5 right now. However, we will never know that.

There is a ton of snobbishness between universities.

I don't mean any offense to any of those institutions but schools like ND, Syracuse and G'town simply see themselves on a different level. They feel their peers are Duke, UNC, UVA, etc and not ECU, Boise and Central Florida.

So I think that unless the money for that league was off the chart they would have definitely still left.

Yeah, I think Pitt left almost as much for the institutions in the ACC as they did for superior athletic programs. As mentioned in the article, Pitt really doesn't spend that much money on athletics and doesn't emphasize it as much as many other schools do (I actually wish they would emphasize it a little more). They want to be aligned with schools like Georgia Tech, Duke, UNC, and UVA that will strengthen their research ties particularly in the medical fields which is their golden goose.

When people are thinking of Pitt, the leaders want them to be thinking of other elite urban schools like Georgia Tech or Miami, not some of the commuter schools like Boise State that have completely different missions and goals.

(06-13-2013 12:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  As we were walking out of the stadium, the exhilarated UVA fans - who had just been handed an absolute gift - were feeling their oats and began to chant/taunt the Pitt fans. That's no big deal - that's college football. However, instead of chanting "U-V-A" or "Let's Go Cavs" or whatever the hell else they would normally cheer, they instead went with the ultra surprising "A-C-C...A-C-C...A-C-C!"

Thing is, the only time you will hear "A-C-C" chanted at schools like Clemson, FSU, and GT is when they beat a SEC school, and it is done in a mocking manner because of the "S-E-C" chants we are subjected to so often by the Walmart fans of our rivals.

"Miami with Florida State has more value than the two in different leagues."

While I agree with your larger points Miami has been worthless in a league with FSU. Miami at the top of their game was a much different animal than FSU at the top of their game (FSU is the humid Penn State, while Miami is only useful as an outlaw program. Outlaw programs can't exist in the ACC, which favors entrenched good ole boy corruption of the UNC type.)