(05-14-2013 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  Plain and simple this is killing the Bearcats. The latest AD budget figures I've seen had UofL at approx. $87 mil. and Cincy at $39.5 mil.... that is simply not going to be good enough in this day and age. That's old C-usa budget numbers.

IDK how the Univ. of Cincy is going to up their budget, but they must do so, and considerably. At least to Pitt levels, which I believe is in the 50s mil. range....

Your Louisville number is correct. Your Cincy number is $10M short. They spent $49M in 2012.

(05-14-2013 07:15 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  Plain and simple this is killing the Bearcats. The latest AD budget figures I've seen had UofL at approx. $87 mil. and Cincy at $39.5 mil.... that is simply not going to be good enough in this day and age. That's old C-usa budget numbers.

IDK how the Univ. of Cincy is going to up their budget, but they must do so, and considerably. At least to Pitt levels, which I believe is in the 50s mil. range....

Your Louisville number is correct. Your Cincy number is $10M short. They spent $49M in 2012.

Equity in Athletics website (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/) has Cincy at $39.6 million for the 2011-12 school year. South Florida and UConn were at 43.6 and 63.8 million respectively. These compare to approximately $87 million for UL, 56 million for Pittsburgh and 73 million for Syracuse, respectively.

Based on athletic success, UC is definitely deserving of an opportunity to play in a P5 level conference. Looking at the ACC's options, though, with one slot open it really came down to UL vs. UConn. UConn had a clear advantage in institutional profile/academics, while UL had a clear advantage in its football program success and potential for future success. This is not to demean UC's academics or potential for football success, but UConn and UL had clear advantages.

As I've posted elsewhere, the B12 may ultimately find that moving back to 12 is advantageous. UC ought to be a the top of the B12's list if, for no other reason, due to geography. I urge the athletic program to keep the "pedal to the metal," so that when the time comes UC can match its superior geographic position with a status as the best available athletic program.

(05-14-2013 08:06 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 07:15 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  Plain and simple this is killing the Bearcats. The latest AD budget figures I've seen had UofL at approx. $87 mil. and Cincy at $39.5 mil.... that is simply not going to be good enough in this day and age. That's old C-usa budget numbers.

IDK how the Univ. of Cincy is going to up their budget, but they must do so, and considerably. At least to Pitt levels, which I believe is in the 50s mil. range....

Your Louisville number is correct. Your Cincy number is $10M short. They spent $49M in 2012.

Equity in Athletics website (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/) has Cincy at $39.6 million for the 2011-12 school year. South Florida and UConn were at 43.6 and 63.8 million respectively. These compare to approximately $87 million for UL, 56 million for Pittsburgh and 73 million for Syracuse, respectively.

Based on athletic success, UC is definitely deserving of an opportunity to play in a P5 level conference. Looking at the ACC's options, though, with one slot open it really came down to UL vs. UConn. UConn had a clear advantage in institutional profile/academics, while UL had a clear advantage in its football program success and potential for future success. This is not to demean UC's academics or potential for football success, but UConn and UL had clear advantages.

As I've posted elsewhere, the B12 may ultimately find that moving back to 12 is advantageous. UC ought to be a the top of the B12's list if, for no other reason, due to geography. I urge the athletic program to keep the "pedal to the metal," so that when the time comes UC can match its superior geographic position with a status as the best available athletic program.

That is their best bet to move up....follow the (Jurich) model...so your program will be ready if a spot opens

I got my numbers from the USA Today database

(05-14-2013 08:06 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 07:15 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  Plain and simple this is killing the Bearcats. The latest AD budget figures I've seen had UofL at approx. $87 mil. and Cincy at $39.5 mil.... that is simply not going to be good enough in this day and age. That's old C-usa budget numbers.

IDK how the Univ. of Cincy is going to up their budget, but they must do so, and considerably. At least to Pitt levels, which I believe is in the 50s mil. range....

Your Louisville number is correct. Your Cincy number is $10M short. They spent $49M in 2012.

Equity in Athletics website (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/) has Cincy at $39.6 million for the 2011-12 school year. South Florida and UConn were at 43.6 and 63.8 million respectively. These compare to approximately $87 million for UL, 56 million for Pittsburgh and 73 million for Syracuse, respectively.

That is an amazing disparity showing we are still in the American. I guess I can take solace in the fact that Cincinnati beat South Florida, UConn, Louisville, Pittsburgh and Syracuse in the 2011 football season.

(05-14-2013 08:17 AM)kobe Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 08:06 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 07:15 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  Plain and simple this is killing the Bearcats. The latest AD budget figures I've seen had UofL at approx. $87 mil. and Cincy at $39.5 mil.... that is simply not going to be good enough in this day and age. That's old C-usa budget numbers.

IDK how the Univ. of Cincy is going to up their budget, but they must do so, and considerably. At least to Pitt levels, which I believe is in the 50s mil. range....

Your Louisville number is correct. Your Cincy number is $10M short. They spent $49M in 2012.

Equity in Athletics website (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/) has Cincy at $39.6 million for the 2011-12 school year. South Florida and UConn were at 43.6 and 63.8 million respectively. These compare to approximately $87 million for UL, 56 million for Pittsburgh and 73 million for Syracuse, respectively.

That is an amazing disparity showing we are still in the American. I guess I can take solace in the fact that Cincinnati beat South Florida, UConn, Louisville, Pittsburgh and Syracuse in the 2011 football season.

Well if UC had a pro arena handed to them that increased their hoops revenue by 15-20mm it would be much more of a level comparison. UL would still be ahead but that clearly made a huge impact in the comparison.

One of the realignment guru's that I follow has said repeatedly:

Never expand with any school where the football stadium seats less than your conference's average attendance.
The average ACC football attendance is just a shade below 50,000. At this time neither UConn or Cincinnati meet this criteria and therefore should not be considered.

(05-13-2013 10:50 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Stadium capacity:
BC 44,500
TCU 45,000
Utah 45,000
Syracuse 49,000
Rutgers 52,000
Louisville 55,000
WVU 60,000
VT 66,000

UConn 40,000
Cincy 35,000PBS is 65,000 seats, and is 2 miles from UC

The smallest stadium that has moved up to a power 5 league the past 10 years is BC.

(05-14-2013 08:48 AM)XLance Wrote:  One of the realignment guru's that I follow has said repeatedly:

Never expand with any school where the football stadium seats less than your conference's average attendance.
The average ACC football attendance is just a shade below 50,000. At this time neither UConn or Cincinnati meet this criteria and therefore should not be considered.

UC can use PBS which is 65,000.

Cincy & UConn better settle down and commit themselves to improving their programs and the overall AAC. That way they might hold off the MWC and MAC elite for the last sugar spot.

(05-14-2013 08:48 AM)XLance Wrote:  One of the realignment guru's that I follow has said repeatedly:

Never expand with any school where the football stadium seats less than your conference's average attendance.
The average ACC football attendance is just a shade below 50,000. At this time neither UConn or Cincinnati meet this criteria and therefore should not be considered.

Several conferences have done that. And every single conference has lowered its average attendance through expansion because many of those stadiums weren't full, even if they held more than the average.

(05-14-2013 12:09 AM)S11 Wrote:  They (Louisville) have so much money that even with a bad hire (kragthorpe) they can still attract and retain a new coach (strong) toget them back on track.

That is an excellent way to squeeze an epic lemon and make some lemonade. I never thought of selling it that way. Thanks for pointing it out. Saying that our football program was good enough to only need four years to overcome a catastrophically BAD coaching hire could be a better selling point than anything else.

In contrast, Cincinnati had three consecutive superb coaching hires and two BCS bowls and still couldn't really drum up a critical mass of local support.

(05-14-2013 08:14 AM)Maize Wrote:  That is their best bet to move up....follow the (Jurich) model...so your program will be ready if a spot opens

I think everyone in the G5 got the message that if you want to get promoted to P5, it helps to get 50,000 fans to show up for football and 20,000 to show up for basketball, like Louisville has.

Problem is, a school like Cincy couldn't come close to doing either when it was playing relatively attractive opponents like UofL, WVU, Pitt, and Syracuse. To think they will be able to do so now that schools like Temple, Tulsa, Tulane, and ECU will be coming to Nippert is probably unrealistic.

And that's to say nothing about what will happen to basketball attendance now that UofL, Syracuse, and the attractive C7 schools won't be showing up anymore either. Going to be very hard for any G5 to build fan support in the AAC environment.

(05-13-2013 09:29 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The last 2 schools to join a P5 had over a 50,000 seat football stadium in Louisville and Rutgers.

This is the problem faced by UC; they don't have a large traditional fan base.

Of the last 7 schools to move in to a P5 conference only 2 had less than 50k...TCU at 44,358 and Utah at 45,017.

Louisville
Rutgers
WV
Pitt
Syracuse
TCU
Utah

(05-14-2013 04:59 AM)Vewb1 Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  It's a money game, for the most part. How one performs on the field can be secondary, yet it is helpful, certainly. Yet if you have the money you should be successful, and UofL and TCU have parlayed their AD budgets into on-field/court success.

UConn almost certainly is attractive b/c they have an AD budget in the 60s mil. range, as did most other schools in the BE (incl. the never made it TCU), but what schools didn't? Cincy & USF.

Plain and simple this is killing the Bearcats. The latest AD budget figures I've seen had UofL at approx. $87 mil. and Cincy at $39.5 mil.... that is simply not going to be good enough in this day and age. That's old C-usa budget numbers.

IDK how the Univ. of Cincy is going to up their budget, but they must do so, and considerably. At least to Pitt levels, which I believe is in the 50s mil. range....

Your right about budgets in some senses and your right that Cincinnati needs to increase it's budget. All the years of football winning, the university did not cash in on it's success. However, the big dollars are relative in a sense that not all schools with larger budgets than Cincinnati are successful in their respective leagues or even outside of their leagues. Look at schools like Wake Forest, Purdue, Indiana many of which can't beat many major schools they play each and every year. Not to mention the fact that schools like PU, IU and Wake are not using their big league dollars appropriately or effectively. One thing many don't quite understand in Louisville is we have had more success in football than Louisville over the past six years, yet we have less than half of the budget as you mentioned 87 to 39. How can we have a better overall record with half of the budget? The problem that the ACC saw in Cincinnati was definately a lack of revenue and lack of scholarships offered in golf, swimming, track and field and baseball has hurt us over time. Whit Babcock has now reinstated scholarships in these areas with Tuberville's donation, we should begin to have more success in these sports too. We also need to start women's softball and men's lacrosse.

Simple ... you can have a better record when coached by Brian Kelly, and Butch Jones, versus Steve Kragthorpe, who singlehandedly almost set back the entire Cardinal athletic department with his ineptitude.

And I know Krags beat Brian Kelly once, something that is inexplicable really.

Charlie has finally pulled us out of the hole Krags dug. And this coming year we'll finally see a football team led by juniors and RS sophomores.


Having said all that, Cincy has forces locally it has to compete against that Louisville does not -- pro teams, and another division I-A basketball program. This is the biggest issue facing the Bearcats.



.

(05-13-2013 11:25 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  I think the whole lawsuit and lingering resentment is overblown.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm even more certain the lawsuit snafu and lingering resentment is not overblown.

(05-14-2013 11:20 AM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  

(05-13-2013 11:25 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  I think the whole lawsuit and lingering resentment is overblown.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm even more certain the lawsuit snafu and lingering resentment is not overblown.

You definitely would know more than I do because I have absolutely zero inside knowledge. I just think in general schools would get over issues if they felt like UConn was clearly the best fit but I don't know what goes on with the politics behind closed doors so I could be wrong.

JMHO -- if the addition of UConn would have resulted in a $3M+ bump in TV revenue per year, the lawsuit stuff, MAYBE, could be overlooked.

MAYBE. But, these presidents and chancellor types move to a different drumbeat than us folks on message boards. Just think about how long it took VT to finally get its rightful ACC invite -- 50 years.

In general, folks don't take kindly to being sued, and folks in Connecticut pressed on and sued individuals in the ACC (if memory serves correctly).

(05-13-2013 09:37 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-13-2013 09:29 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The last 2 schools to join a P5 had over a 50,000 seat football stadium in Louisville and Rutgers.

This is the problem faced by UC; they don't have a large traditional fan base.

That a problem for UConn as well...

That is not a problem for USF

(05-14-2013 10:20 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 12:09 AM)S11 Wrote:  They (Louisville) have so much money that even with a bad hire (kragthorpe) they can still attract and retain a new coach (strong) toget them back on track.

That is an excellent way to squeeze an epic lemon and make some lemonade. I never thought of selling it that way. Thanks for pointing it out. Saying that our football program was good enough to only need four years to overcome a catastrophically BAD coaching hire could be a better selling point than anything else.

In contrast, Cincinnati had three consecutive superb coaching hires and two BCS bowls and still couldn't really drum up a critical mass of local support.

With a smaller budget it limits how quickly and effectively you can both buy out a bad coach and attract/retain an upgrade.

Cincy hasn't been able to retain their coach and additional money may have been able to change that.