(04-25-2013 08:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 09:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:14 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:08 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  My wife would look wierd in one of those Bee Keeper outfits.

They only have to wear it outside of the house. Inside, they dress normally. Also, it's only the stict places that wear those things. Countries like Turky, 98% muslim, women wear western style clothing. Of course, that doesn't mean there are those that choose to wear the hijab there, it's just they aren't forced to.

I would expect that to change... that was a vestige of Attaturk's influence, which is all but gone now. iran, Afghanistan, etc used to be exactly like that... now that Islamists have greater influence in each case (compared to the 1979s), they have all returned with a vengance. IIRC, it used to be illegal to wear a hijab in the legislature and/or school. That was one of the first things to go when Erdogan was elected. Friendly relations with Israel was probably #2.

I've also followed Turkey for about a decade seeing how that is where my ex was from. I agree with your assessment that the govt is more pro islam these days. However, having a military that would execute a coup d'etat of the govt on a whim was no way to run a democracy either. Turkey is an example of how islam and democracy can coexist. A little give and take between the two is probably a good thing. Knowing the Turks I know, they are all very pro democracy and secular, at least when it comes to govt. What will happen in the future, who knows?

We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

We need to stand by our principles, whether the world likes it or not.

(04-25-2013 09:37 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 08:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 09:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:14 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:08 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  My wife would look wierd in one of those Bee Keeper outfits.

They only have to wear it outside of the house. Inside, they dress normally. Also, it's only the stict places that wear those things. Countries like Turky, 98% muslim, women wear western style clothing. Of course, that doesn't mean there are those that choose to wear the hijab there, it's just they aren't forced to.

I would expect that to change... that was a vestige of Attaturk's influence, which is all but gone now. iran, Afghanistan, etc used to be exactly like that... now that Islamists have greater influence in each case (compared to the 1979s), they have all returned with a vengance. IIRC, it used to be illegal to wear a hijab in the legislature and/or school. That was one of the first things to go when Erdogan was elected. Friendly relations with Israel was probably #2.

I've also followed Turkey for about a decade seeing how that is where my ex was from. I agree with your assessment that the govt is more pro islam these days. However, having a military that would execute a coup d'etat of the govt on a whim was no way to run a democracy either. Turkey is an example of how islam and democracy can coexist. A little give and take between the two is probably a good thing. Knowing the Turks I know, they are all very pro democracy and secular, at least when it comes to govt. What will happen in the future, who knows?

We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

Getting closer and closer every day here in America.

(04-25-2013 09:37 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

True -- but the fact that so many people could have ever believed that in the first place (and still do!) illustrates what a terrible spot we're in.

(04-26-2013 05:35 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 09:37 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 08:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 09:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:14 PM)VA49er Wrote:  They only have to wear it outside of the house. Inside, they dress normally. Also, it's only the stict places that wear those things. Countries like Turky, 98% muslim, women wear western style clothing. Of course, that doesn't mean there are those that choose to wear the hijab there, it's just they aren't forced to.

I would expect that to change... that was a vestige of Attaturk's influence, which is all but gone now. iran, Afghanistan, etc used to be exactly like that... now that Islamists have greater influence in each case (compared to the 1979s), they have all returned with a vengance. IIRC, it used to be illegal to wear a hijab in the legislature and/or school. That was one of the first things to go when Erdogan was elected. Friendly relations with Israel was probably #2.

I've also followed Turkey for about a decade seeing how that is where my ex was from. I agree with your assessment that the govt is more pro islam these days. However, having a military that would execute a coup d'etat of the govt on a whim was no way to run a democracy either. Turkey is an example of how islam and democracy can coexist. A little give and take between the two is probably a good thing. Knowing the Turks I know, they are all very pro democracy and secular, at least when it comes to govt. What will happen in the future, who knows?

We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

Getting closer and closer every day here in America.

I'm Quite serious. Democracy is *one way* to achieve liberty, it's also one way to achieve totalitarianism. It's how the people treat the government, and not the other way around, which will make them free or not.

If people treat the government like a fun relative who brings them nice things they will not long be free. If the people treat the government like a necessary evil they will be free.

(04-26-2013 06:10 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 09:37 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

True -- but the fact that so many people could have ever believed that in the first place (and still do!) illustrates what a terrible spot we're in.

Agreed...

(04-25-2013 09:37 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 08:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 09:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:14 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 04:08 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  My wife would look wierd in one of those Bee Keeper outfits.

They only have to wear it outside of the house. Inside, they dress normally. Also, it's only the stict places that wear those things. Countries like Turky, 98% muslim, women wear western style clothing. Of course, that doesn't mean there are those that choose to wear the hijab there, it's just they aren't forced to.

I would expect that to change... that was a vestige of Attaturk's influence, which is all but gone now. iran, Afghanistan, etc used to be exactly like that... now that Islamists have greater influence in each case (compared to the 1979s), they have all returned with a vengance. IIRC, it used to be illegal to wear a hijab in the legislature and/or school. That was one of the first things to go when Erdogan was elected. Friendly relations with Israel was probably #2.

I've also followed Turkey for about a decade seeing how that is where my ex was from. I agree with your assessment that the govt is more pro islam these days. However, having a military that would execute a coup d'etat of the govt on a whim was no way to run a democracy either. Turkey is an example of how islam and democracy can coexist. A little give and take between the two is probably a good thing. Knowing the Turks I know, they are all very pro democracy and secular, at least when it comes to govt. What will happen in the future, who knows?

We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

+1.

That myth has been pushed from all sides, for many decades.

(04-26-2013 09:13 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-26-2013 05:35 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 09:37 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-25-2013 08:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 09:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I would expect that to change... that was a vestige of Attaturk's influence, which is all but gone now. iran, Afghanistan, etc used to be exactly like that... now that Islamists have greater influence in each case (compared to the 1979s), they have all returned with a vengance. IIRC, it used to be illegal to wear a hijab in the legislature and/or school. That was one of the first things to go when Erdogan was elected. Friendly relations with Israel was probably #2.

I've also followed Turkey for about a decade seeing how that is where my ex was from. I agree with your assessment that the govt is more pro islam these days. However, having a military that would execute a coup d'etat of the govt on a whim was no way to run a democracy either. Turkey is an example of how islam and democracy can coexist. A little give and take between the two is probably a good thing. Knowing the Turks I know, they are all very pro democracy and secular, at least when it comes to govt. What will happen in the future, who knows?

We need to divorce ourselves from the idea that Democracy always means liberty.

Getting closer and closer every day here in America.

I'm Quite serious. Democracy is *one way* to achieve liberty, it's also one way to achieve totalitarianism. It's how the people treat the government, and not the other way around, which will make them free or not.

If people treat the government like a fun relative who brings them nice things they will not long be free. If the people treat the government like a necessary evil they will be free.

I concur.
I treat it like my enemy. I do everything I can to not have to interact with it. I see it as a nuisance in my life. In my crazy world...Infrastructure, Military protection, Safety and a Court system is all I seek from it. All the rest?...I can do without.

I had always heard that Egypt was the worst place in the world to be a woman. Odd coincidence that they are so close to Saudi Arabia, but there are signs of progress...

Saudi Arabia launches first anti-domestic violence ad | FP Passport

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013...iolence_ad Wrote:Saudi Arabia has long been known as one of the worst places in the world to be a woman: Under the kingdom's legal system, women are treated as minors and are forbidden from traveling or working without the permission of their male guardians. According to the World Economic Forum's 2012 Global Gender Gap Report, Saudi Arabia ranks 131st out of 135 countries when it comes to opportunities for women.

Studying engineering and working with the Ron Paul campaign allowed me to meet and befriend Muslims from all over the world (not any growing up in my all white town of 800). Almost all were very Americanized and really good people. About a year ago my parents divorced and my sister (in some sort of retaliation) ended her six year relationship with her white, high school sweetheart boyfriend. A year later she was out of no where engaged to a very Americaized Muslim who'd been here since he was ten. Something like his father found out they were living together out of wedlock and had a spasm.

So my sister seems to be in the process of converting. That's her life though, there's not much I can do on that. I guess my sadness comes from future nieces and nephews that will lack the ability to make their own decisions on what they want to believe. I suppose it's not so different as my parents taking me to church on Sunday's growing up.

Also, the way Christians are introduced to Islam about still being able to believe in Jesus Christ before that is slowly twisted to him being equal to the last prophet Mohammed, etc. is sad to me. Starting with a lie to convert someone to a religion is sad to me.

*Waits for joke about Christians promising the lost eternal life also being a lie.

Maybe I'm wrong about above, but it's been introduced to me in that way on two separate occasions.

Liberals have nothing on Muslims when it comes to lying.

In response to the OP. I guess some women like the idea of catching rocks with their face for having opinions.

Positive rep me or I'll sell you to gypsies.

(04-30-2013 08:17 AM)Dak10 Wrote:  Studying engineering and working with the Ron Paul campaign allowed me to meet and befriend Muslims from all over the world (not any growing up in my all white town of 800). Almost all were very Americanized and really good people. About a year ago my parents divorced and my sister (in some sort of retaliation) ended her six year relationship with her white, high school sweetheart boyfriend. A year later she was out of no where engaged to a very Americaized Muslim who'd been here since he was ten. Something like his father found out they were living together out of wedlock and had a spasm.

So my sister seems to be in the process of converting. That's her life though, there's not much I can do on that. I guess my sadness comes from future nieces and nephews that will lack the ability to make their own decisions on what they want to believe. I suppose it's not so different as my parents taking me to church on Sunday's growing up.

It's not necessarily game over with your nephews and/or nieces. What I would watch out for is that if there is a divorce or even a hint of it, never let the guy leave the country... you'll never see the kids again. But. if you can work at the parents to promise to let the kids make up their own minds, maybe you can end the cross-generational mindfuck.

(04-30-2013 08:26 AM)Dak10 Wrote:  Also, the way Christians are introduced to Islam about still being able to believe in Jesus Christ before that is slowly twisted to him being equal to the last prophet Mohammed, etc. is sad to me. Starting with a lie to convert someone to a religion is sad to me.

This is a good point. Of course, for a non-adherent, all conversions start with a lie. But, in addition to my points elsewhere about Islam arguably having a coherent narrative, it also plays to the incremental revelation of Judeo-Christianity.

(04-30-2013 08:26 AM)Dak10 Wrote:  Also, the way Christians are introduced to Islam about still being able to believe in Jesus Christ before that is slowly twisted to him being equal to the last prophet Mohammed, etc. is sad to me. Starting with a lie to convert someone to a religion is sad to me.

Maybe I'm wrong about above, but it's been introduced to me in that way on two separate occasions.

First I'd heard about that. I know Jesus is represented in the Koran as being a prophet, not the son of God. The virgin birth and miracles are also represented. Did you mean it was represented to you that Jesus was still the son of God in Islam? If so, somebody was either ignorant, misinformed, or just lying to you.

I was brought up as a Baptist and still am, but it is ridiculous for people to get so upset about details of what they cannot prove. It's a continuous never ending loop. Makes me wonder about all religions.