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temoxley Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Looking back....I would guess that Toledo needed to go 29-1 to get into the NCAA as an at large team. If they were going to lose to Central in the MAC semifinal, then they probably needed to win the two league games with Central so as to show they were better. And they probably needed to win the game with Dayton to validate that they could beat a ranked team. They only lost that game by 4 on the road, but close doesn't count for the Rockets.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2013 07:47 PM by temoxley.)
03-18-2013 07:46 PM
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northcoastRocket Online
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Post: #42
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 07:40 PM)Rocket Pirate Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 07:34 PM)T-Town Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 07:18 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  And even yet, no one wants to come out and see them.

Their men's team has been to the NCAA something like 13 out of the past 15 or 16 years, has a record of 21-10 in the tournament and has won a national championship-----so compared to their men's program, they don't consider the success of their women's program is anything to get too excited about, I guess.

UT is a major exception to the rule when it comes to attendance. For the most part, nobody really cares about women's basketball enough to actually attend games even if the record is phenomenal.

That's not really true, on a relative level. Most schools with winning records draw more than 1000. Most big conference schools, with winning records or not still draw 1500 or so. I know it's not like the men's numbers, but it still isn't 662. Pitt was just awful this year and still drew 1000 more per game than Syracuse.
03-18-2013 07:50 PM
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bcunn3128 Away
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Post: #43
RE: Women's NCAA Field
OK...if anyone's still reading & gives a damn about this "resident pessimist's" opinion, here it is:

1. On the good side, neither Duquesne nor Charlotte got into the NCAA ahead of UT--that would have really set me off (particularly Charlotte).
2. Kansas, West Virginia and South Florida got in by name alone. Unfortunately, NO "mid-major" is gonna knock a "middle of the pack" Big East/Big 12 team out of an at-large.
3. According to the selection committee, women's bball only has 2 "mid-major" conferences--the A10 and Missouri Valley. The message to the MAC & everyone else who thought they were mid-major is pretty simple: win your conference's one & only auto bid if you want to dance.
4. If we had beaten Dayton, and everything else remained the same, I think we squeeze someone out...but we didn't.
5. There will be some pretty good basketball teams in the WNIT--I think it will be a stronger field than the year we won it. UT needs to be ready & focused to make the run again. That is one way to get some more attention--win the WNIT 2 out of 3 years.
6. Next year will be a rebuilding year for the Lady Rockets...should still be a winning season, but won't be surprised if we finish in third in the West behind CMU & Ball State...but, especially if 2 or 3 of the incoming freshmen play contributing roles, AND Coach Cullop stays, AND Nunn is able to be the player that was anticipated before having to redshirt, AND we get another good recruiting class next year, AND we add a good point guard for the 2014-2015 season (maybe a transfer from somewhere?), then watch out again for this team in Inma's senior season (2014-15).
03-18-2013 08:31 PM
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T-Town Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 07:25 PM)Rocket Pirate Wrote:  Again, that's just my unsubstantiated theory. Your first two paragraphs express the way I feel as well. I'm not buying the company line of "nobody will play us, so we are forced to play two home tournaments against terrible opponents." If you don't want to leave zero margin for error after a two loss season, then it's up to you to get a decent (not even good, just decent) schedule.

I suspect that you are right about UT expecting a home-and-home schedule and not being interested in a one-and-done or a 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 and if so I SAY GOOD FOR TRICIA CULLOP AND MIKE O'BRIEN. The BIG conferences already have too many advantages over the mid-majors and we don't need to give them any more. One advantage for the BIGS is that within their conference schedule they get enough home-and-home games with ranked or strong teams that they don't need to schedule any tough out-of-conference games, particularly against a strong mid-major team and certainly not one that can draw 4000 hostile fans---we are a victim of our success and I gladly accept it.

As I have said before, playing tough teams on the road on a one-and-done basis will NOT likely help get an at-large invite anyway----however, it will get you a few more losses for naught. The NCAA selection panels will ALWAYS find a way to slip in BIG conferences teams such as Kansas or West Virginia over more deserving mid-major teams----build up your strength of schedule and they will ignore it and find something else to criticize---the system is STACKED against mid-majors from a number of perspectives and it is a fact of life you learn to live with. That is why I have also said many times before (probably to the point irritating more than a few people), if you are a mid-major, the only sure fire path you have to the NCAA is to win your conference tournament.

As I have also said before, the best bet is trying to schedule 1-and-1 with other decent mid-majors, a few of the Atlantic 10 (although after the go the the nBE they may also figure that there is no percentage in playing here) and maybe a few Mountain West teams. Maybe to get invited to tournaments that have a couple BIGs participating (not easy task)-----But NO one-and-done with ANYBODY.

Before their reputation was established UT used to get big name WBB programs to play here. I remember both Notre Dame and Vanderbilt playing in Savage the very same year (as I recall)---they both left with wins. But I also remember in the late 1990's when nationally ranked # 4 Duke came into Savage and left with a loss. Unlike most MAC teams except BGSU. UT is the ONLY one that has a long tradition of excellence in Women's Basketball and the BIG teams know that and don't want or need the hassle of playing here.
03-18-2013 08:38 PM
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rocketpete Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 07:29 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 06:58 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  
Jordan Strack ‏@JordanStrack Wrote:Tricia Cullop: I challenge any committee member to look at all of the teams we've tried to schedule and have laughed in our ear.

Start naming names. Post their response on the internet for all to see.

Why did she wait till just prior to the MAC tourny to bring up this very obvious reality?
Was there some politicking being done going in ?
03-18-2013 08:38 PM
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bcunn3128 Away
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Post: #46
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Somebody had a really good point, though...schedule some "nearby" road games against "bigger" teams, coordinate a road trip with the fan club & other fans, travel well and somewhat negate the home team's advantage--we could go to Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue (which we are doing next season), Ohio State, Pitt, Cincy, Louisville--obviously not all in the same season, but we have gotta start playing a couple of these folks on the road & beating them.
03-18-2013 08:43 PM
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Rocket Pirate Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Good post, T-Town.

You brought up the new Big East and I think they'll be looking to play teams like Toledo and other good mid majors their in-conference strength of schedule will take a HUGE hit losing UConn, Notre Dame, Syracuse, South Florida, Louisville, and Rutgers. It looks like Creighton will be added to the conference next year and Dayton in two years, but they're looking like a three-bid league unless some programs step up.
03-18-2013 08:47 PM
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northcoastRocket Online
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Post: #48
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Latest tweet from Coach C:

Tricia Cullop ‏@CoachCullop
Disappointed with #NCAA committee decision. I would gladly invite any of them to sit in on scheduling calls. #Frustrating4MidMajors
03-18-2013 08:53 PM
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northcoastRocket Online
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Post: #49
RE: Women's NCAA Field
NIT Teams listed, but not matchups yet: http://www.womensnit.com/

Toledo, Akron, Ball St. BG & Miami all in.
03-18-2013 09:02 PM
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MidnightBlueGold Online
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Post: #50
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 08:38 PM)rocketpete Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 07:29 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 06:58 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  
Jordan Strack ‏@JordanStrack Wrote:Tricia Cullop: I challenge any committee member to look at all of the teams we've tried to schedule and have laughed in our ear.

Start naming names. Post their response on the internet for all to see.

Why did she wait till just prior to the MAC tourny to bring up this very obvious reality?
Was there some politicking being done going in ?

This wasn't the first time it has been mentioned. It was mentioned before the season, during the season, and within the past week.
03-18-2013 09:10 PM
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rocketpete Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Somethings not right if we can't play the better teams. It is part of the whole picture, and claiming other big schools will not play fair, sounds suspicious.
Who actually and how far in advance lines up the schedules for the Lady Rockets basketball program?
03-18-2013 10:06 PM
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rockytop Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Coach Cullop is involved in scheduling. Schedules are prepared a year in advance, unlike football which go out for several years.
03-19-2013 06:20 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Does anyone know if Cullop will only schedule games against bigger schools if Toledo can get at least 1 home game out of it? Say a 2 for 1 if not a 1 for 1, or will she schedule just 1 road game against the bigger schools?
03-19-2013 08:49 AM
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sterling1man Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 06:37 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  In my opinion the NCAA committee should just be ashamed of themselves and just come out and admit that they are shills for the big conferences to keep the small schools down. Teams with at-large bids:

Team / Record / RPI / Attendance
WVU / 17-13 / 55 / 2664
South Florida / 21-10 / 56 / 1456
Miami / 21-10 / 51 / 1463
Kansas / 17-13 / 58 / 2817

And you leave out:
Toledo / 27-3 / 46 / 4263

I mean they created the frickin' RPI to explain why they picked certain schools and then of course, they really don't use it, ya know, cause ... well it might keep a big school out. I know we played an easy schedule. I get that. But they can't prove that we can't play with the big schools, cause we haven't played them yet. Yet, these 4 schools have had their chance to play with the big teams, and have proven that they day-in and day-out, they can't. 13 losses just cannot qualify you for the tournament. It's ridiculous.

I think the NCAA should establish a minimum success criterion like the football bowl system does. If you don't win at least 2/3 of your games, you shouldn't get in. (And yes I know that Miami & SoFla would still qualify under that scenario, but still. It would be something.)

Toledo should have been given an invite!
Hopefully the Lady Rockets an repeat as NIT champs.
03-19-2013 11:58 AM
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Dwight Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 07:19 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 06:37 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  In my opinion the NCAA committee should just be ashamed of themselves and just come out and admit that they are shills for the big conferences to keep the small schools down. Teams with at-large bids:

Team / Record / RPI / Attendance
WVU / 17-13 / 55 / 2664
South Florida / 21-10 / 56 / 1456
Miami / 21-10 / 51 / 1463
Kansas / 17-13 / 58 / 2817

And you leave out:
Toledo / 27-3 / 46 / 4263

I mean they created the frickin' RPI to explain why they picked certain schools and then of course, they really don't use it, ya know, cause ... well it might keep a big school out. I know we played an easy schedule. I get that. But they can't prove that we can't play with the big schools, cause we haven't played them yet. Yet, these 4 schools have had their chance to play with the big teams, and have proven that they day-in and day-out, they can't. 13 losses just cannot qualify you for the tournament. It's ridiculous.

I think the NCAA should establish a minimum success criterion like the football bowl system does. If you don't win at least 2/3 of your games, you shouldn't get in. (And yes I know that Miami & SoFla would still qualify under that scenario, but still. It would be something.)

I think there should be a clearly defined formula used to select the at-large picks. You should be able to plug the information into a computer and have it spit out the 33 teams. How can anyone know how to qualify otherwise? What do teams work on to get in?

+1 to all of the above comments. Create a formula that determines the at-large bids, and take the politics out. Since the RPI already heavily emphasizes strength of schedule, I just can't get my head around letting in a team with a much lower RPI than we have based on strength of schedule. As things stand, it's really unclear what a mid-major has to do to get an invitation.
03-19-2013 12:29 PM
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MidnightBlueGold Online
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Post: #56
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-19-2013 12:29 PM)Dwight Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 07:19 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 06:37 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  In my opinion the NCAA committee should just be ashamed of themselves and just come out and admit that they are shills for the big conferences to keep the small schools down. Teams with at-large bids:

Team / Record / RPI / Attendance
WVU / 17-13 / 55 / 2664
South Florida / 21-10 / 56 / 1456
Miami / 21-10 / 51 / 1463
Kansas / 17-13 / 58 / 2817

And you leave out:
Toledo / 27-3 / 46 / 4263

I mean they created the frickin' RPI to explain why they picked certain schools and then of course, they really don't use it, ya know, cause ... well it might keep a big school out. I know we played an easy schedule. I get that. But they can't prove that we can't play with the big schools, cause we haven't played them yet. Yet, these 4 schools have had their chance to play with the big teams, and have proven that they day-in and day-out, they can't. 13 losses just cannot qualify you for the tournament. It's ridiculous.

I think the NCAA should establish a minimum success criterion like the football bowl system does. If you don't win at least 2/3 of your games, you shouldn't get in. (And yes I know that Miami & SoFla would still qualify under that scenario, but still. It would be something.)

I think there should be a clearly defined formula used to select the at-large picks. You should be able to plug the information into a computer and have it spit out the 33 teams. How can anyone know how to qualify otherwise? What do teams work on to get in?

+1 to all of the above comments. Create a formula that determines the at-large bids, and take the politics out. Since the RPI already heavily emphasizes strength of schedule, I just can't get my head around letting in a team with a much lower RPI than we have based on strength of schedule. As things stand, it's really unclear what a mid-major has to do to get an invitation.

It's hypocritical for the selection committee to 'punish' UT for having a week SOS because that was already taken into account in their RPI. IIRC, your opponents win% is 50% of your RPI! So UT's RPI was substantially lower because of our weak SOS. Then they 'reward' teams (ex- 17-13 Kansas & WVU) with a lower RPI because they played better teams. Guess what, Selection Committee, they couldn't beat the better teams! That is why they have 13 losses! I could go on and on, but I'll stop before I get too fired up. I would have been ok if they would have taken another mid-major, like Charlotte, but when they pick BC$ conference teams that are barely above .500, that just shows they favor the 'big time' schools. :muttering:
03-19-2013 01:44 PM
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T-Town Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-19-2013 12:29 PM)Dwight Wrote:  +1 to all of the above comments. Create a formula that determines the at-large bids, and take the politics out. Since the RPI already heavily emphasizes strength of schedule, I just can't get my head around letting in a team with a much lower RPI than we have based on strength of schedule. As things stand, it's really unclear what a mid-major has to do to get an invitation.

Actually it is perfectly clear what a mid-major has to do to get an invitation---WIN THEIR TOURNAMENT----otherwise don't bet on an invitation.

In the men's game an appearance in the NCAA Tournament is currently worth about 1.5 million dollars to the home conference spread over 6 years for every time one of their teams plays a game in a given tourney (getting to the finals is currently worth about $9M! paid out over 6 years). (BTW---if anyone is still mystified as to how the Bearcats got into the Big East with a football program and football attendances both considerable below that which UT had at that time----just check out the number of NCAA appearances and NCAA games UC played over the 15-20 years preceding their invitation and compare it to the UT men appearances during the same period and then calculate the revenue each earned during that period and therein lies your answer) The women's tournament doesn't pay nearly so well but the selection "rules" are the same.

Just as in the BCS football system, the power conferences are in control and want to capture as much of those BIG TV $$$$ and merchandising $$$$ as possible so they can continue to hire the very best mult-million dollar/year coaches and provide the very best facilities to keep those TV $$$$ rolling in. They only throw a few crumbs to the lesser conferences in order to prevent anti-trust suits. Every at-large bid extended to a mid-major men's team is costing them a minimum of $1.5 and they don't like it.

They intentionally keep the BB selection guidelines vague and throw in enough variables (RPI, SOS, good/bad wins, good/bad loses, last 10 games, etc, etc) to ensure that they always selectively find a reason to accept a power conference bubble team and reject a lesser conference bubble team by picking and choosing which variable to apply and which to ignore on a team by team basis and thus "justify" their biased selection process. If you are a mid-major, you have about a 5% chance of getting an at-large invitation particularly if your conference has no representation on the selection committee---which uncommon for a power conference but very common for the mid-majors.

Except for a few small colleges and the IVY league, college FB and BB is no longer about sportsmanship or college athletic competition on a level playing field rather is entirely about chasing BIG TV $$$$ and as a marketing tool to establish a "brand name" and image for your institution that will successfully recruit all those (even bigger) college federal loan $$$$.

I have probably said this a 100 times but I guess it sounds so cynical (and paranoid) that most readers evidently think it is a joke, but if you look at who has gotten in and who has been left out over a period of a few years, this interpretation is as plausible as any and better than most. Accept the one simple premise of uncontrollable and unbridled greed on the part of the power conferences and all of sudden everything falls into place and makes perfectly good sense. Think about it.
03-19-2013 02:07 PM
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flying dutchman Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Women's NCAA Field
Are you serious 1.5 mil per game and since we have one team in each tourney each year that's about 200k per team per year and if anybody advances it's more $$$ let's pack the house and get more money for our coaches so we can keep them and tap into more of that money
03-19-2013 02:26 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Women's NCAA Field
(03-19-2013 02:26 PM)flying dutchman Wrote:  Are you serious 1.5 mil per game and since we have one team in each tourney each year that's about 200k per team per year and if anybody advances it's more $$$ let's pack the house and get more money for our coaches so we can keep them and tap into more of that money

Yes 1.5 million per game is an approximate value based on $250,000 per game to be paid for 6 years---the actually number has been growing each year for a while now. BUT that revenue stream I quoted ONLY applies to the NCAA Men's Tournament which is where the big TV $$$$ are earned---not the women's NCAA, not the NIT or WNIT as they do not have anywhere near the same level of popularity, hence TV rating, hence TV $$$$. The revenue is turned over to the respective conferences to distribute, not the participating teams, although most conferences give the team that earned the money a larger share.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2...5-million/
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2013 02:51 PM by T-Town.)
03-19-2013 02:41 PM
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Post: #60
Women's NCAA Field
(03-18-2013 06:39 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  
(03-18-2013 06:37 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  In my opinion the NCAA committee should just be ashamed of themselves and just come out and admit that they are shills for the big conferences to keep the small schools down. Teams with at-large bids:

Team / Record / RPI / Attendance
WVU / 17-13 / 55 / 2664
South Florida / 21-10 / 56 / 1456
Miami / 21-10 / 51 / 1463
Kansas / 17-13 / 58 / 2817

And you leave out:
Toledo / 27-3 / 46 / 4263

I mean they created the frickin' RPI to explain why they picked certain schools and then of course, they really don't use it, ya know, cause ... well it might keep a big school out. I know we played an easy schedule. I get that. But they can't prove that we can't play with the big schools, cause we haven't played them yet. Yet, these 4 schools have had their chance to play with the big teams, and have proven that they day-in and day-out, they can't. 13 losses just cannot qualify you for the tournament. It's ridiculous.

I think the NCAA should establish a minimum success criterion like the football bowl system does. If you don't win at least 2/3 of your games, you shouldn't get in. (And yes I know that Miami & SoFla would still qualify under that scenario, but still. It would be something.)

I agree with you. I love how they will say that UT didn't prove themselves against good teams. Well, neither did the teams you mentioned! All they proved was that they would NOT play with the good teams!

I would love to see the above stats, except, take out the attendance figures(as they mean nothing to the selection committee) and replace them with the Strength of Schedule. I bet you will then see what differentiates those teams from Toledo.
03-19-2013 07:33 PM
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