I would have thought Tom would have given this up after the beating he took on it last week.

(09-05-2012 01:46 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  So Tom it's your position that not one single vehicle came off the Janesville assembly line after December 2008?

Asked and answered last week.

(09-05-2012 01:48 PM)bearcat65 Wrote:  I would have thought Tom would have given this up after the beating he took on it last week.

Do I really need to tell you fools yet again that there wasn't a damned thing Obama could have done to stop the wheels of the plant closing that started well before he took the oath?

Really?

It's not like turning on and off a light switch.

(09-05-2012 01:49 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 01:48 PM)bearcat65 Wrote:  I would have thought Tom would have given this up after the beating he took on it last week.

Do I really need to tell you fools yet again that there wasn't a damned thing Obama could have done to stop the wheels of the plant closing that started well before he took the oath?

Really?

It's not like turning on and off a light switch.

The line was idled, not closed tom... A light switch is pretty accurate!

In October 2008, GM announced Janesville Assembly would be largely idled December 23, 2008 when production of SUVs would end. On December 23, workers gathered at a ceremony to take photos with a banner reading "Last Vehicle off the Janesville Assembly Line". The last vehicle was sold in a raffle benefiting the United Way

Idled plants keep all the tools and equipment needed to restart and there is usually a labor force in the area..

MORE IMPORTANTLY

The lights were still on in April and they were still making vehicles.

Yet our Socialist Presidente, in the infancy of his administration with a glourious chance to take over the means of production, just sat by and let 1,200 union workers stay unemployed when he could have taken over the auto industry and started making cars with the mere flip of a switch. Yeah...doesn't even pass the smell test....unless...Obama isn't a....oh...of course he is...who am I kidding!

(09-05-2012 02:27 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Yet our Socialist Presidente, in the infancy of his administration with a glourious chance to take over the means of production, just sat by and let 1,200 union workers stay unemployed when he could have taken over the auto industry and started making cars with the mere flip of a switch. Yeah...doesn't even pass the smell test....unless...Obama isn't a....oh...of course he is...who am I kidding!

No he did not have that chance because congress, even under control of democrats by a significant majority in both houses, would not have backed him up had he tried. So he could not have done it with a flip of the switch and your entire argument fails miserably.

The fact that many center-left to center democrats are not socialists does not prove that Obama isn't.

Another thing makes zero sense is what would have the plant produced and where would they have sold them? They were producing Suburbans and with gas prices high there was little market for those. And most of the workers who weren't just let go went to Ohio, Michigan and Texas. So just opening the plant back up was NOT just like flippling a switch!

Also, Janesville was in the running for small car production, but that contract went to Orion, MI. Are you going to praise Obama then for all the jobs he brought to Orion, MI? You can't have it both ways!

(09-05-2012 02:45 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Another thing makes zero sense is what would have the plant produced and where would they have sold them? They were producing Suburbans and with gas prices high there was little market for those. And most of the workers who weren't just let go went to Ohio, Michigan and Texas. So just opening the plant back up was NOT just like flippling a switch!

Also, Janesville was in the running for small car production, but that contract went to Orion, MI. Are you going to praise Obama then for all the jobs he brought to Orion, MI? You can't have it both ways!

Tom you keep missing the point.

Obama should not have claimed he'd retool it and keep it open to begin with. Yes, you have warped his statements in your mind to believe he didn't ever say he'd do that. But the fact is any impartial person knows he did.

The point is he was pandering to his audience and then didn't deliver once in office. Not the first to do it, won't be the last.

http://freebeacon.com/from-janesville-to-jilin/

You're pretty pathetic, Tom. How many times do you need to get pwned before you admit you are wrong? Before you quit trying to split hairs? Before you give up explaining what the latest foolish leftwing pol REALLY meant? You do this stuff so well there might be a job with Brocco Bombas' administration. With Stephanie Cutter bombing lately in her own lie telling, there might be an opening soon. You could be a professional. Get PAID to lie and split hairs.

You are this board's own version of Baghdad Bob. Congrats. Ain't easy to reach those heights.



Poster boy for the truth challenged democrats. Actual facts don't matter. Got it.

Show me the quote where he said he promised in any sort of way to retool specifically the Janesville plant when he had any say in it happening. You won't find it.

The quotes:

Quote:”I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.” ~ 2/2008

This was made before he took office, Bush and congress took no position to provide assistance, and GM decided to idle the plant for future consideration of having a small car line there, again, before he was elected.

Quote:"Reports that the GM plant I visited in Janesville may shut down sooner than expected are a painful reminder of the tough economic times facing working families across this country," Obama said in a statement released by his Wisconsin campaign organization.

"This news is also a reminder that Washington needs to finally live up to its promise to help our automakers compete in our global economy. As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America." ~ 10/11/2008

And it's important to note that this quote WAS NOT MADE IN WISCONSIN! So he wasn't talking directly to Janesville employees at that time. It was a released statement.

Finally, the small plant contract went to Orion, MI. This was a GM decision not an Obama one. And here I thought Obama was running GM all by himself. Silly me!

(09-05-2012 02:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 02:27 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Yet our Socialist Presidente, in the infancy of his administration with a glourious chance to take over the means of production, just sat by and let 1,200 union workers stay unemployed when he could have taken over the auto industry and started making cars with the mere flip of a switch. Yeah...doesn't even pass the smell test....unless...Obama isn't a....oh...of course he is...who am I kidding!

No he did not have that chance because congress, even under control of democrats by a significant majority in both houses, would not have backed him up had he tried. So he could not have done it with a flip of the switch and your entire argument fails miserably.

The fact that many center-left to center democrats are not socialists does not prove that Obama isn't.

BTW - I don't think you ever answered me as to if you want to abolish Medicare, Social Security, Food Stamps, Welfare and the Earned Income Credit.

Tom I've broken this down for you multiple times. This will be the last time. I know you will ignore it, twist it, lie about it, willfully delude yourself into disagreeing with. That's your right. But don't fool yourself into believing anyone but you and other intellectually bankrupt liberals believe he wasn't committing to retooling that plant.

Quote:"As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America."

Quote:As president

This assumes he's been elected. With me so far?

Quote:I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville

This is where you and other liberals stop. You make the unconscionable claim that his thought ended there. The fool on Ezra Klein's blog you posted did the same. But as you now must acknowledge since you pasted the full quote, there is more to the story.

Why does he want to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville? Fortunately he tells us.

Quote:so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow

But again, the statement doesn't stop. There is more to it.

What will building the fuel efficient cars of tomorrow get us?

Quote:and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America.

How are we going to create good paying jobs in Wisconsin Tom? Obama says by building the fuel-efficent cars of tomorrow. How are we going to build those cars Tom? By retooling plants like the one in Janesville. It's all one thought. It's all one statement. It all goes together. Why would he ever mention creating good paying jobs in Wisconsin, after talking about the Janesville plant, when the only way to do what he wants is by retooling that plant? He wouldn't. There is absolutely no logical case you can make to claim he wasn't talking about that plant and retooling it. None. No doubt you'll try, but you'll fail, as you have everytime you've tried.

Tom you're not a dumb person but you have picked this hill to die on and you are continually embarrassing yourself evertime you bring this back up. I realize you're in so deep now you'd rather be thought of as ignorant than wrong. That's your perogative.

But deep down you know you're wrong.

This will be the last time I discuss this with you. The last word is all yours.

Amazing how this thread went from an obvious lie from Wasserman to Tom trying to once again spin Obama's comments and take another beating in the process.

(09-05-2012 03:15 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Tom I've broken this down for you multiple times. This will be the last time. I know you will ignore it, twist it, lie about it, willfully delude yourself into disagreeing with. That's your right. But don't fool yourself into believing anyone but you and other intellectually bankrupt liberals believe he wasn't committing to retooling that plant.

Quote:"As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America."

Quote:As president

This assumes he's been elected. With me so far?

Quote:I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville

This is where you and other liberals stop. You make the unconscionable claim that his thought ended there. The fool on Ezra Klein's blog you posted did the same. But as you now must acknowledge since you pasted the full quote, there is more to the story.

Why does he want to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville? Fortunately he tells us.

Quote:so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow

But again, the statement doesn't stop. There is more to it.

What will building the fuel efficient cars of tomorrow get us?

Quote:and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America.

How are we going to create good paying jobs in Wisconsin Tom? Obama says by building the fuel-efficent cars of tomorrow. How are we going to build those cars Tom? By retooling plants like the one in Janesville. It's all one thought. It's all one statement. It all goes together. Why would he ever mention creating good paying jobs in Wisconsin, after talking about the Janesville plant, when the only way to do what he wants is by retooling that plant? He wouldn't. There is absolutely no logical case you can make to claim he wasn't talking about that plant and retooling it. None. No doubt you'll try, but you'll fail, as you have everytime you've tried.

Tom you're not a dumb person but you have picked this hill to die on and you are continually embarrassing yourself evertime you bring this back up. I realize you're in so deep now you'd rather be thought of as ignorant than wrong. That's your perogative.

But deep down you know you're wrong.

This will be the last time I discuss this with you. The last word is all yours.

I love how you continue to leave out the "all across america" part...lol...while still glossing over the fact that the plans to close the plant and likely go elsewhere were made by GM well before Obama was elected...lol...meaning he couldn't do a damned thing after he was elected...but hey...keep thinking he could.

And what? No praise for Obama getting the contract for the Orion, MI plant and the 1,200 jobs that were created?

(09-05-2012 03:18 PM)bearcat65 Wrote:  Amazing how this thread went from an obvious lie from Wasserman to Tom trying to once again spin Obama's comments and take another beating in the process.

I ain't spinning jack ****. Niner and his minions are the ones continuing to make the leap that Obama promised to do something that he later could never have fulfilled regardless because decisions were made by GM before he was even elected.

(09-05-2012 03:07 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 02:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 02:27 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Yet our Socialist Presidente, in the infancy of his administration with a glourious chance to take over the means of production, just sat by and let 1,200 union workers stay unemployed when he could have taken over the auto industry and started making cars with the mere flip of a switch. Yeah...doesn't even pass the smell test....unless...Obama isn't a....oh...of course he is...who am I kidding!

No he did not have that chance because congress, even under control of democrats by a significant majority in both houses, would not have backed him up had he tried. So he could not have done it with a flip of the switch and your entire argument fails miserably.
The fact that many center-left to center democrats are not socialists does not prove that Obama isn't.

BTW - I don't think you ever answered me as to if you want to abolish Medicare, Social Security, Food Stamps, Welfare and the Earned Income Credit.

Since I've laid out my approach at length on all those matters, I didn't think I really needed to rehash, but if you insist:

Medicare--I would go to French health care, which would replace Medicaid immediately. The system would work a lot like Ryan's idea for Medicare. Medicare would get smaller because the French care would fund a significant part of what Medicare funds now. I would pick a cutoff point, probably 50 to 55, and everyone above that gets the option to choose French care now and no Medicare or choose to get Medicare when eligible but nothing before then. Under that cutoff age the benefit of French health care from now to 65 significantly outweighs the impact that Medicare is more generous than French health care.

Social Security--I would go to the Swedish system of part government, part privatized. I would also remove the salary cap altogether (makes no sense, this is the most regressive tax we have now), and make some reforms to payments (gradually move the retirement age to 68, lower the inflation impact on the upper end of compensation but not the lower, so evernually they merge, at which point the privatized accounts have kicked in fully). And I would make that the only tax on individual incomes, remove the individual income tax altogher, and replace it with a consumption tax and a business/investment income tax.

Food stamps and current "means tested" welfare programs--In conjunction with the consumption tax, I would implement the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund which would provide a baseline safety net for everyone. I would then move food stamps and our other current "means tested" welfare programs to the states; since we've saved them a bunch of Medicaid/Medicare costs with French health care, they can afford this; some states would take the current programs, some states would expand them, some states would probably cancel some of them--all are fine.

Earned income credit--This is basically replaced by the prebate/prefund, which is an adaptation of the Milton Friedman negative income tax to a consumption tax enviornment. Since the negative income tax is the intellectual precursor to the EIC, the effect is to step up the EIC.

Now I'll play along and see where you try to go with this.

Tom the "all across America" and the fact he included it only bolsters the case Obama was talking about the Janesville plant. He deliberately called out Wisconsin and then joined it with "all across America."

I'm embarrassed for you.

And I'm embarrassed for you that you feel you need to continually defend the Republican talking points, and back the Romney Ryan ticket which you will reluctantly vote for, instead of listening to actual GM personnel and employees. THEY are Obama's base. THEY know he could have done. THEY realize he made no promises. But of course, they're all lying for their union brethren.