A potential deal for expansion has to be attractive to many different parties in order for it to come to fruition. The problem with ACC schools such as FSU or Clemson coming to the Big 12 is that it's going to be hard to make the deal attractive for all involved.

Whatever their frustrations may be with the hoops-centric ACC, it is still a geographically relevant conference located in well-populated areas, with strong academics and long-term rivalries thrown in. For the ACC schools to move to the Big 12, they'd likely not just look at the potential revenue increase, but also want regular access to the most desired current members, namely UT and OU.

The problem with that is that the Texas and Oklahoma schools are presumed to want to remain together - which would mean putting the newcomers in a division with the likes of WVU/KU/KSU/ISU. While they may not mind traveling to Morgantown, they'd likely be less excited about coming to Lawrence, Manhattan, and Ames on a regular basis.

Could a divisional alignment be made that would be attractive enough to draw new members while satisfying old ones? Perhaps, but I don't think it would be easy.

(06-27-2012 11:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:20 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:07 AM)bronconick Wrote:  Here's an interesting question. Some things I've read are that OU/UT prefer not having a CCG because of the multiple disaster upsets in the Big XIICG over the years, and the northern schools (KU/KSU/ISU) like the round robin for retaining Texas access for recruiting.

If there is fire to the smoke over the last few months, it's pretty rare to have a program of FSU's caliber seeking entry into your league. Do we look back in 20-25 years on a Big XII decision to stay at 10 the same way people look back at the Big East blowing off Penn State?

No, because if FSU doesn't join the Big 12, it will be because FSU decided they weren't interested. A ccg can be tolerated by anyone-and they don't have to have it even with 12. Divsion alignments are difficult, but can be worked out. Noone serious (unless they are a decision maker who has it direct from ND and aren't telling anyone) expects ND to join any conference in football in the next few years. The idea that the Big 12 is telling FSU no is just not believable.

That is not what it is about. It is about the Big 12 telling FSU no as far as the scenario that FSU would agree to. The Big 12 wants Notre Dame first and foremost. That in itself is a slap in the face to FSU that they are placed into the sidekick position to Notre Dame. The agreement that would have perhaps worked was FSU being the major grab and a team like Clemson or Georgia Tech coming with them as Their sidekick. By bringing in FSU first that makes any future expansion likely to be in their area. By having Notre Dame be the major grab and FSU the minor that means future expansion is more likely to be that which makes Notre Dame happy.

The Big 12 is/was foolish to pick Notre Dame as their major target.

The only scenario where I see that could be an issue is if FSU wants 4 and the Big 12 only wants 2 at this time. And the Big 12 knows it will not get Notre Dame in football anytime soon, so it would be FSU + 1 ACC school (if any were willing) or UL if no ACC schools would come. And I haven't seen anything saying FSU was stuck on the Big 12 going to 14.

If anything I think FSU would want the flexibility and additional big draw home games an 8 game league slate provides. Allows for Miami and UF in noncon.

(06-27-2012 11:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:20 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:07 AM)bronconick Wrote:  Here's an interesting question. Some things I've read are that OU/UT prefer not having a CCG because of the multiple disaster upsets in the Big XIICG over the years, and the northern schools (KU/KSU/ISU) like the round robin for retaining Texas access for recruiting.

If there is fire to the smoke over the last few months, it's pretty rare to have a program of FSU's caliber seeking entry into your league. Do we look back in 20-25 years on a Big XII decision to stay at 10 the same way people look back at the Big East blowing off Penn State?

No, because if FSU doesn't join the Big 12, it will be because FSU decided they weren't interested. A ccg can be tolerated by anyone-and they don't have to have it even with 12. Divsion alignments are difficult, but can be worked out. Noone serious (unless they are a decision maker who has it direct from ND and aren't telling anyone) expects ND to join any conference in football in the next few years. The idea that the Big 12 is telling FSU no is just not believable.

That is not what it is about. It is about the Big 12 telling FSU no as far as the scenario that FSU would agree to. The Big 12 wants Notre Dame first and foremost. That in itself is a slap in the face to FSU that they are placed into the sidekick position to Notre Dame. The agreement that would have perhaps worked was FSU being the major grab and a team like Clemson or Georgia Tech coming with them as Their sidekick. By bringing in FSU first that makes any future expansion likely to be in their area. By having Notre Dame be the major grab and FSU the minor that means future expansion is more likely to be that which makes Notre Dame happy.

The Big 12 is/was foolish to pick Notre Dame as their major target.

The only scenario where I see that could be an issue is if FSU wants 4 and the Big 12 only wants 2 at this time. And the Big 12 knows it will not get Notre Dame in football anytime soon, so it would be FSU + 1 ACC school (if any were willing) or UL if no ACC schools would come. And I haven't seen anything saying FSU was stuck on the Big 12 going to 14.

No, I would say FSU is stuck on making sure that Clemson or GT comes with them. I would say the Big 12 is stuck on 12 being their cap for now. That means if they took FSU and CU/GT then that means if Notre Dame decides they want to bring football over then that means the Big 12 must expand to 14. So if Texas and crew are holding up the process so that Notre Dame can decide if they want to be part of a 12 team Big 12 then that is not exactly going to be enticing to FSU.

Swofford a basketball first guy? Not a forward thinker? Maybe that's why Swofford added three Football teams to the ACC over the objections of the two biggest basketball programs in his league, and then added two more schools with pedigreed football programs that could match any school in the NCAA.

BTW; Delany played basketball, Swofford played football .

(06-27-2012 11:35 AM)XLance Wrote:  Swofford a basketball first guy? Not a forward thinker? Maybe that's why Swofford added three Football teams to the ACC over the objections of the two biggest basketball programs in his league, and then added two more schools with pedigreed football programs that could match any school in the NCAA.

BTW; Delany played basketball, Swofford played football .

To be fair, he added Miami. VT was forced upon the ACC. Does Boston College still play sports, real question? Pitt & Syracuse were awesome bball adds, but unless Doc Brown is taking us back to the 1930s-50s, they're not football schools.

(06-27-2012 11:35 AM)XLance Wrote:  Swofford a basketball first guy? Not a forward thinker? Maybe that's why Swofford added three Football teams to the ACC over the objections of the two biggest basketball programs in his league, and then added two more schools with pedigreed football programs that could match any school in the NCAA.

BTW; Delany played basketball, Swofford played football .

It isn't about the games they played in college. It is about the decisions they make as Commissioners. That was a silly comparison to make considering what Delaney has done for the Big Ten. He has hardly made "basketball decisions". He has made decisions that strengthen all sports for the Big Ten but obviously they have been football first decisions.

While history is a nice selling point, if it is your only selling point then it is not enough. Maybe Pitt and Syracuse will turn around their football programs but for now they are basketball schools.

Yeah to say Pitt and Syracuse are football additions just is amazing. What, Yale wasn't available?

(06-27-2012 11:34 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  A potential deal for expansion has to be attractive to many different parties in order for it to come to fruition. The problem with ACC schools such as FSU or Clemson coming to the Big 12 is that it's going to be hard to make the deal attractive for all involved.

Whatever their frustrations may be with the hoops-centric ACC, it is still a geographically relevant conference located in well-populated areas, with strong academics and long-term rivalries thrown in. For the ACC schools to move to the Big 12, they'd likely not just look at the potential revenue increase, but also want regular access to the most desired current members, namely UT and OU.

The problem with that is that the Texas and Oklahoma schools are presumed to want to remain together - which would mean putting the newcomers in a division with the likes of WVU/KU/KSU/ISU. While they may not mind traveling to Morgantown, they'd likely be less excited about coming to Lawrence, Manhattan, and Ames on a regular basis.

Could a divisional alignment be made that would be attractive enough to draw new members while satisfying old ones? Perhaps, but I don't think it would be easy.

Those problems with 12 teams are overrated. If you have a 9 game schedule you play the teams in the other division 4 of 6 years or you can play 2 every year and the other 4 every other year. Divisions are almost irrelevant.

If you have an 8 game schedule you still get each team every other year or 1 every year and the others 2 of 5. Its still pretty minor.

Its only if you get to 14 that divisions become significant.

(06-27-2012 11:17 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:14 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  I think the money makes sense for both sides. If FSU can come with a school like a Clemson or a Georgia Tech I can easily see it happen.

The tv deals make for a pretty large gap if you consider:

1- The Big 12 even at 20mm per school begins at 3mm above the ACC. Add a conservative 1mm bump for each of FSU & Clemson (ACC got this for lesser additions of Pitt & Cuse) and a 1.5mm bump for the title game and it jumps to a 6.5mm gap.

2- The ACC has used up all football and basketball television rights. OU is about to get roughly 5mm by selling their tier 3 tv rights to Fox regional. FSU would get similar compensation for a similar deal. Even if it is half of that figure it is still 2.5mm they didn't get in the ACC. Minimum gap is now at 9mm. Over 10 years that is another year's 90mm budget.

This is before we consider:

- Champions bowl payout
- Likely greater per school revenue share from historical strength as playoff reports are hinting at
- More frequent revenue spikes from Big 12 teams qualifying in the top 4 playoff and sharing that money in the league.

I see a lot of financial reasons to bolt. Will they? Time will tell but it would not surprise me at all.

I don't think the problem has ever been FSU. I think the problem has been certain entities within the Big 12. To the degree that it almost seems insulting to FSU. FSU is a school that seems to hold grudges. Their current one is held against the SEC. The last thing the Big 12 should do is insult FSU by negotiating with them as if they are in a position of weakness. That is a bridge the Big 12 really needs to not burn.

if Florida State wants to stay in a conference that's just a step above the mid-majors, that's their business

if Florida State does have some sort of grudge against the SEC and if that gentlemen's agreement does exist, then the Big 12 is Florida State's only option if and when they get tired of the Tobacco Road mafia.

Don't see them jumping to the Big 10

(06-27-2012 11:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Yeah to say Pitt and Syracuse are football additions just is amazing. What, Yale wasn't available?

but their academics are so superior to other schools

that's why they were invited-had nothing to do with the "quality" of their football programs

it's academics!!!!

(06-27-2012 11:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Yeah to say Pitt and Syracuse are football additions just is amazing. What, Yale wasn't available?

FSU will not join the Big 12.

(06-27-2012 11:51 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 11:34 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  A potential deal for expansion has to be attractive to many different parties in order for it to come to fruition. The problem with ACC schools such as FSU or Clemson coming to the Big 12 is that it's going to be hard to make the deal attractive for all involved.

Whatever their frustrations may be with the hoops-centric ACC, it is still a geographically relevant conference located in well-populated areas, with strong academics and long-term rivalries thrown in. For the ACC schools to move to the Big 12, they'd likely not just look at the potential revenue increase, but also want regular access to the most desired current members, namely UT and OU.

The problem with that is that the Texas and Oklahoma schools are presumed to want to remain together - which would mean putting the newcomers in a division with the likes of WVU/KU/KSU/ISU. While they may not mind traveling to Morgantown, they'd likely be less excited about coming to Lawrence, Manhattan, and Ames on a regular basis.

Could a divisional alignment be made that would be attractive enough to draw new members while satisfying old ones? Perhaps, but I don't think it would be easy.

Those problems with 12 teams are overrated. If you have a 9 game schedule you play the teams in the other division 4 of 6 years or you can play 2 every year and the other 4 every other year. Divisions are almost irrelevant.

If you have an 8 game schedule you still get each team every other year or 1 every year and the others 2 of 5. Its still pretty minor.

Its only if you get to 14 that divisions become significant.

I honestly don't think FSU would mind being in the division opposite of UT and OU. This wouldn't be a move just about playing them. It would be an overall move that includes getting bigger pay days and having great seasons be given more credit. Having the Big 12 SoS while playing some of it's weaker teams is not a bad situation for FSU. FSU doesn't need Texas recruiting but if they find themselves in some Big 12 championship games from the division opposite of Texas and Oklahoma, well, they are certainly going to be able to get some HQ recruits from Texas.

The question is whether or not the Big 12 forces FSU coaches and FSU players to consistantly lift their game. I still believe that the up and down nature of competition during an ACC season doesn't allow for teams to get themselves playing at peak potential. FSU may drown in the Big 12 or it may rise up to the program everyone thinks they should already be.

(06-27-2012 12:00 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  FSU will not join the Big 12.

Oh really?

RLY

Oh great, and now the ignorant one liners stating absolutes and their equally ignorant responses of "Oh yeah?" and "Nuh uh!" to then be followed by "Uh huh!" and "You're Stupid!" are all about to take over this thread.

Some of you people are better off just not posting at all.

(06-27-2012 12:30 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Oh great, and now the ignorant one liners stating absolutes and their equally ignorant responses of "Oh yeah?" and "Nuh uh!" to then be followed by "Uh huh!" and "You're Stupid!" are all about to take over this thread.

Some of you people are better off just not posting at all.

Did someone put vinegar in your coffee? Or is it PMS?

For some reason you're in a sour mood today...

(06-27-2012 12:36 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(06-27-2012 12:30 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Oh great, and now the ignorant one liners stating absolutes and their equally ignorant responses of "Oh yeah?" and "Nuh uh!" to then be followed by "Uh huh!" and "You're Stupid!" are all about to take over this thread.

Some of you people are better off just not posting at all.

Did someone put vinegar in your coffee? Or is it PMS?

For some reason you're in a sour mood today...

Was my statement wrong?

No. But you seem on edge today. What's eating you?

(06-27-2012 11:34 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  A potential deal for expansion has to be attractive to many different parties in order for it to come to fruition. The problem with ACC schools such as FSU or Clemson coming to the Big 12 is that it's going to be hard to make the deal attractive for all involved.

Whatever their frustrations may be with the hoops-centric ACC, it is still a geographically relevant conference located in well-populated areas, with strong academics and long-term rivalries thrown in. For the ACC schools to move to the Big 12, they'd likely not just look at the potential revenue increase, but also want regular access to the most desired current members, namely UT and OU.

The problem with that is that the Texas and Oklahoma schools are presumed to want to remain together - which would mean putting the newcomers in a division with the likes of WVU/KU/KSU/ISU. While they may not mind traveling to Morgantown, they'd likely be less excited about coming to Lawrence, Manhattan, and Ames on a regular basis.

Could a divisional alignment be made that would be attractive enough to draw new members while satisfying old ones? Perhaps, but I don't think it would be easy.

This is, without a doubt, the best post in this thread so far. Well said.

Cheers,
Neil