...and yes, I have had that question in the back of my mind many times. "Who created God". Well, if that's ever answered, who created the guy that created God? Same with the Big Bang. What was here before everything supposedly exploded? Here's a question to ask your friends at 4:20, try 4:30 to let it take effect, "When you reach the end of the universe, what's on the other side?".

(06-13-2012 01:41 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  I could just as easily ask you what created the singularity that the big bang originated from.

The Big Bang theory does not actually say the Universe was at one time a singularity. The Big Bang theory says that the universe at some point was much, much smaller, and was expanding really quite fast.

As we go back in time nearer to the Big Bang, our knowledge of physics becomes less certain because the physical conditions are so different to what we have today - so we don't have a clue what happened at the Big Bang, though I belive one could extrapulate that there was a small, hot mess (a singularity?) at the center that later violently expanded.

And it's also perfectly possible that the Big Bang was just a violent event in a pre-existing, ageless universe. (Whoa!)

(06-13-2012 02:01 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 01:58 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  What was the thing that created the thing that created the singularity that the big bang originated from? It never ends.

No it doesn't. It takes faith. Just stop trying to force your faith onto me and I won't force mine onto you. You hardly ever see me get into topics like this one because NO one is going to be able to prove the other wrong.

I'm forcing my faith onto you? Haha, okay. FWIW - I'm a Baptist Christian. Arguing about origins won't get anywhere, so there is no point. You're right, no one can prove the other wrong. This type of thing is something you just need to step back and say, "I believe what I believe, and I'll find out for absolutely sure when I find out."

And to be honest - there's so much we can't even begin to understand in this world, so it is pointless to try to prove points of origin with quite incomplete data.

(06-13-2012 02:03 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  I'm forcing my faith onto you? Haha, okay. FWIW - I'm a Baptist Christian. Arguing about origins won't get anywhere, so there is no point. You're right, no one can prove the other wrong. This type of thing is something you just need to step back and say, "I believe what I believe, and I'll find out for absolutely sure when I find out."

Not saying you're forcing anything onto me. It was a general statement.

(06-13-2012 02:03 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 01:41 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  I could just as easily ask you what created the singularity that the big bang originated from.

The Big Bang theory does not actually say the Universe was at one time a singularity. The Big Bang theory says that the universe at some point was much, much smaller, and was expanding really quite fast.

Ok, what was it contained in if it was much smaller? What's on the other side? What did it expand into?

Nevermind.

I quit smoking weed 20+ years ago so this topic is no longer fun to debate.

(06-13-2012 02:05 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:03 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  I'm forcing my faith onto you? Haha, okay. FWIW - I'm a Baptist Christian. Arguing about origins won't get anywhere, so there is no point. You're right, no one can prove the other wrong. This type of thing is something you just need to step back and say, "I believe what I believe, and I'll find out for absolutely sure when I find out."

Not saying you're forcing anything onto me. It was a general statement.

Okay, I didn't think so but it caught me off guard haha.

(06-13-2012 02:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I quit smoking weed 20+ years ago so this topic is no longer fun to debate.

No kidding. But, for the sake of the youngins' I've always enjoyed this description:

Imagine a finite rubber sheet with two Sharpie dots on it, then imagine stretching it in both directions at once. Once you've got that image, just let the rubber sheet grow, until the edges are so far away it looks infinite to you. The dots you drew are moving apart from each other, because the space itself in which they exist is expanding.

There ya go - you have an infinite universe in which space is expanding. There's nothing 'there' for it to expand into, but it's expanding just the same.

To me, the issue with answering this question is that the human brain can't comprehend anything that isn't dictated by space and time.

(06-13-2012 02:16 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I quit smoking weed 20+ years ago so this topic is no longer fun to debate.

No kidding. But, for the sake of the youngins' I've always enjoyed this description:

Imagine a finite rubber sheet with two Sharpie dots on it, then imagine stretching it in both directions at once. Once you've got that image, just let the rubber sheet grow, until the edges are so far away it looks infinite to you. The dots you drew are moving apart from each other, because the space itself in which they exist is expanding.

There ya go - you have an infinite universe in which space is expanding. There's nothing 'there' for it to expand into, but it's expanding just the same.

Nope. They're expanding in the room I'm stretching the rubber sheet in.

(06-13-2012 02:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I quit smoking weed 20+ years ago so this topic is no longer fun to debate.

You never get into these debates. What happened with this one?

(06-13-2012 02:27 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I quit smoking weed 20+ years ago so this topic is no longer fun to debate.

You never get into these debates. What happened with this one?

This is just fun. I'm not trying to prove anything.

There's nothing to prove, based on the OP. I'm a Christian that believes in theistic evolution. I can't prove that this is correct, but based on what I've read and based on my faith this is what I believe to be correct. I do find it surprising that creationism is as popular a belief now than a decade or 2 ago. Sure, I think this would be the majority belief by far in the 1800s and earlier. However, based on what we know and based on the evidence so far available, I'm really surprised that people would willfully believe in something that is contrary to science.

It's one thing to have faith or a belief in God, because you can never prove or disprove His existance and a belief in God does not contradict the laws of science and nature. However, to believe in something that can be proven false is being willfully ignorant. That has to be a concern to the people of this country.

(06-13-2012 02:20 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Nope. They're expanding in the room I'm stretching the rubber sheet in.

But it isn't expanding into anything. If one believes that space is flat it's perfectly reasonable to think in Euclidean geometric terms, but I believe space is non-Euclidean, because that's what the General Theory of Relativity shows.

There isn't any "end". There isn't any "edge". There isn't any "center". There isn't any "exanding into."

Think of the surface of the moon. There is a finite amount of it, but there isn't any edge. If you're standing on the moon and start walking, you can walk forever without running into an edge or a wall. The surface of the moon isn't an infinite flat Euclidean plane, it's the surface of a sphere (approximately) and applying Euclidean concepts to it leads to confusion.

I make no judgement on people who think otherwise. There is far more unknown about the universe than is known, of course.

As you said though, enough is enough.

(06-13-2012 02:03 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The Big Bang theory does not actually say the Universe was at one time a singularity. The Big Bang theory says that the universe at some point was much, much smaller, and was expanding really quite fast.

As we go back in time nearer to the Big Bang, our knowledge of physics becomes less certain because the physical conditions are so different to what we have today - so we don't have a clue what happened at the Big Bang, though I belive one could extrapulate that there was a small, hot mess (a singularity?) at the center that later violently expanded.

And it's also perfectly possible that the Big Bang was just a violent event in a pre-existing, ageless universe. (Whoa!)

So very wrong.

"Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity."
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

I have a very good understanding of physics for someone not working in the field. I want to understand the mechanics behind how things began. I have faith in why they began. God.

(06-13-2012 02:51 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:20 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Nope. They're expanding in the room I'm stretching the rubber sheet in.

But it isn't expanding into anything. If one believes that space is flat it's perfectly reasonable to think in Euclidean geometric terms, but I believe space is non-Euclidean, because that's what the General Theory of Relativity shows.

There isn't any "end". There isn't any "edge". There isn't any "center". There isn't any "exanding into."

But it has to have something to expand into to expand. If not, what was there before it expanded?

Quote:Think of the surface of the moon. There is a finite amount of it, but there isn't any edge. If you're standing on the moon and start walking, you can walk forever without running into an edge or a wall. The surface of the moon isn't an infinite flat Euclidean plane, it's the surface of a sphere (approximately) and applying Euclidean concepts to it leads to confusion.

The moon is in space. If it expanded, it would be expanding into space. Unless space is some kind of mobius strip on steroids, there has to be something on the other side, or it has to be infinite. ...but wouldn't logic say that any object with a beginning must have an end?

(06-13-2012 02:47 PM)miko33 Wrote:  There's nothing to prove, based on the OP.

Yes, my goal with this thread was to spark a discussion around the socio-political significance of the survey data, not to debate the origins of the universe.

(06-13-2012 02:59 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:47 PM)miko33 Wrote:  There's nothing to prove, based on the OP.

Yes, my goal with this thread was to spark a discussion around the socio-political significance of the survey data, not to debate the origins of the universe.

Sometimes you don't get what you want.

(06-13-2012 03:12 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:59 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(06-13-2012 02:47 PM)miko33 Wrote:  There's nothing to prove, based on the OP.

Yes, my goal with this thread was to spark a discussion around the socio-political significance of the survey data, not to debate the origins of the universe.

Sometimes you don't get what you want.

That reminds me, how are your kids?

(06-13-2012 02:53 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  So very wrong.

"Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity."
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

The Big Bang is not about the origin of the universe, as I said. Rather, the Big Bang theory's primary focus is the development of the universe over time. The Big Bang does not imply that the universe was ever point-like though I understand the comparison.