(03-30-2012 11:14 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 10:46 AM)Max Power Wrote:  an administrative agency which is not even subject to the federal rules of evidence

I think you've correctly identified the problem. Administrative agencies pretty much are not subject to anything, which is why they are unaccountable bureaucrats.

...and which is also why the Obama administration loves them so much. They work sort of in the dark, off the radar and those affected by their rulemaking rarely ever know about these regs until they are hit hard by them. The administration tasks them with writing rules that they couldn't get past Congress. For example, has anybody read through the 2700 pages of the APPACA and noted how many times that the language reads something to the effect of; "The Secretary of HHS shall write the rules and regulations regarding......"?

If Congress really wanted to write those rules, they would have. However, since this was NOT a bi-partisan proposal, the majority dems were probably glad that the actual rules would be written out of view of the public. Easier to make mischief there and few would be the wiser (for now)..

You guys are coming off as conspiratorial and maybe a little paranoid. I'm starting to think you don't know how things work.

Bureaucracies and regulations serve a purpose. Congress doesn't have the time to debate every rule and its application. This is a 300 million person country. So Congress passes a "Clean Air Act" and says "Hey, EPA, we're going to give you general guidelines and you figure out how to apply our intent to control pollution to every unique industry, every unique widget, because we're extremely busy over here."

It's NOT out of view of the public. Rules and regulations are published in the Federal Register. Proposed regs are published, and there is a several month long comment period, where the public can object or make suggestions. And if these bureacracies get out of control or go too far, like for instance the EPA, Congress could do as I suggested and just repeal the Clean Air Act thereby taking away all their authority, or something less draconian like just amending the Clean Air Act so that for instance the EPA isn't allowed to regulate motorscooters or whatever. The courts also act as a check on bureacracies because there is a standard of review; you can challenge these admin decisions.

This is the Federal Register website, and as you can see the proposed rules are at the top, very much not hidden or operating in the shadows:

https://www.federalregister.gov/

Let's take one of the 9 current proposed rules:

Quote:NMFS proposes to implement the annual catch limit (ACL), harvest guideline (HG), and associated annual reference points for Pacific sardine in the U.S. exclusive economic zone (EEZ) off the Pacific coast for the fishing season of January 1, 2012, through December 31, 2012. This rule is proposed according to the Coastal Pelagic Species (CPS) Fishery Management Plan (FMP). The proposed 2012 maximum HG for Pacific sardine is 109,409 metric tons (mt). The proposed initial overall commercial fishing HG that is to be allocated across the three allocation periods for sardine management is 97,409 mt. This amount would be divided across the three seasonal allocation periods for the directed fishery the following way: January 1-June 30—33,093 mt; July 1-September 14—37,964 mt; and September 15-December 31—23,352 mt with an incidental set-aside of 1,000 mt for each of the three periods. This rule is intended to conserve and manage the Pacific sardine stock off the U.S. West Coast

Now, Congress can't spend its time arguing about what time specific sardine species in specific Pacific Ocean waters can be caught and how much should be the maximum catch load. Congress just knows that there has to be a standard to achieve a balance, otherwise we could catch certain oceanic species out of extinction, so it lets the bureaucracy tangle with the specifics. Nothing evil or cloak and dagger going on here.

I hope this has been helpful.

(04-03-2012 09:28 AM)Max Power Wrote:  You guys are coming off as conspiratorial and maybe a little paranoid. I'm starting to think you don't know how things work.

Says the child in Peoria, IL who doesn't actually produce something.

(04-03-2012 09:28 AM)Max Power Wrote:  You guys are coming off as conspiratorial and maybe a little paranoid. I'm starting to think you don't know how things work.

Bureaucracies and regulations serve a purpose. Congress doesn't have the time to debate every rule and its application. This is a 300 million person country. So Congress passes a "Clean Air Act" and says "Hey, EPA, we're going to give you general guidelines and you figure out how to apply our intent to control pollution to every unique industry, every unique widget, because we're extremely busy over here."

It's NOT out of view of the public. Rules and regulations are published in the Federal Register. Proposed regs are published, and there is a several month long comment period, where the public can object or make suggestions. And if these bureacracies get out of control or go too far, like for instance the EPA, Congress could do as I suggested and just repeal the Clean Air Act thereby taking away all their authority, or something less draconian like just amending the Clean Air Act so that for instance the EPA isn't allowed to regulate motorscooters or whatever. The courts also act as a check on bureacracies because there is a standard of review; you can challenge these admin decisions.

This is the Federal Register website, and as you can see the proposed rules are at the top, very much not hidden or operating in the shadows:

https://www.federalregister.gov/

Let's take one of the 9 current proposed rules:

Quote:NMFS proposes to implement the annual catch limit (ACL), harvest guideline (HG), and associated annual reference points for Pacific sardine in the U.S. exclusive economic zone (EEZ) off the Pacific coast for the fishing season of January 1, 2012, through December 31, 2012. This rule is proposed according to the Coastal Pelagic Species (CPS) Fishery Management Plan (FMP). The proposed 2012 maximum HG for Pacific sardine is 109,409 metric tons (mt). The proposed initial overall commercial fishing HG that is to be allocated across the three allocation periods for sardine management is 97,409 mt. This amount would be divided across the three seasonal allocation periods for the directed fishery the following way: January 1-June 30—33,093 mt; July 1-September 14—37,964 mt; and September 15-December 31—23,352 mt with an incidental set-aside of 1,000 mt for each of the three periods. This rule is intended to conserve and manage the Pacific sardine stock off the U.S. West Coast

Now, Congress can't spend its time arguing about what time specific sardine species in specific Pacific Ocean waters can be caught and how much should be the maximum catch load. Congress just knows that there has to be a standard to achieve a balance, otherwise we could catch certain oceanic species out of extinction, so it lets the bureaucracy tangle with the specifics. Nothing evil or cloak and dagger going on here.

I hope this has been helpful.

I think you missed the point.

When the President or Congress wants to write a law that the American people don't want the EPA and other agencies enact regulations which are effectively "Laws" in the way they are enforced. Cap and Trade comes to mind. The EPA has such a broad and vague mandate and is tasked with regulating broad and vague "Acts". This is a broad and vague description of the problem...

This child in Peoria, IL who doesn't actually produce something knows far more about how the world works than most of the aging Boomers on this site.

(04-03-2012 09:45 AM)Max Power Wrote:  This child in Peoria, IL who doesn't actually produce something knows far more about how the world works than most of the aging Boomers on this site.

Yes, you keep believing that. Say 'hi' to your pet unicorn from all of us.

And don't forget to take your aspie medication dose again at lunch, it's obvious when you miss it.

(04-03-2012 10:23 AM)Max Power Wrote:  And don't forget to take your aspie medication dose again at lunch, it's obvious when you miss it.

If anyone here should not be throwing stones in the medication house its you Max...

I don't take anything. And Torch threw the first stone on that one. WWJD?

(04-03-2012 10:29 AM)Max Power Wrote:  I don't take anything.

Yes, that is the problem.