(03-30-2012 03:47 PM)roundball2239 Wrote:  It's marketing that's responsible for that

That a ridiculous statement. You've got to have a good product to market. It's hard to market five losing seasons out of nine.

(03-30-2012 06:51 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  . It's hard to market five losing seasons out of nine.

True, on the the assumption that the only thing that can be marketed is winning.

(03-30-2012 06:04 PM)mjs Wrote:  Exactly. MoValley schools draw fans because they like basketball. Not because they are "great" every year, not because they have a coach with "sizzle", not because they go to the NCAA every year (this is the first time in several years they got 2 teams in). About 250 midmajor teams crave to be Gonzaga or Butler. Murray State has had one great season- we'll see what they do next year. Nothing wrong to espire to be Gonzago or Butler. But realistically its not going to happen. At least, I'm not holding my breath. Not sure why, but they are both private schools, who I'm sure have major financial donors. Can't think of a directional state school who has reached that level on a consistent basis. Actually, Gonzaga is the only one who has maintained for a decade or two. Butler hasn't done that yet.

I'll bet if Missouri State, Creighton, Gonzaga, Butler, and any number of schools had five losing seasons out of nine, that the coach would be unemployed now.

Mickey, you're a great Trojan fan and a very knowledgable fan, but it's hard for me to understand how such a fan can be perfectly satisfied with the calibur of basketball that the Trojan basketball program has put on our plate these past nine years.

(03-30-2012 07:02 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 06:04 PM)mjs Wrote:  Exactly. MoValley schools draw fans because they like basketball. Not because they are "great" every year, not because they have a coach with "sizzle", not because they go to the NCAA every year (this is the first time in several years they got 2 teams in). About 250 midmajor teams crave to be Gonzaga or Butler. Murray State has had one great season- we'll see what they do next year. Nothing wrong to espire to be Gonzago or Butler. But realistically its not going to happen. At least, I'm not holding my breath. Not sure why, but they are both private schools, who I'm sure have major financial donors. Can't think of a directional state school who has reached that level on a consistent basis. Actually, Gonzaga is the only one who has maintained for a decade or two. Butler hasn't done that yet.

I'll bet if Missouri State, Creighton, Gonzaga, Butler, and any number of schools had five losing seasons out of nine, that the coach would be unemployed now.

Mickey, you're a great Trojan fan and a very knowledgable fan, but it's hard for me to understand how such a fan can be perfectly satisfied with the calibur of basketball that the Trojan basketball program has put on our plate these past nine years.

Tough to see how anyone can disagree with you on this one LRTrojan without agreeing that they are accepting losing is an acceptable standard. Which you and I do not.

(03-30-2012 12:38 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 12:06 PM)mjs Wrote:   I've come to the reality that we can be a nice midmajor in a 5000 seat arena. Nothing wrong with that. My delusions of us being "big-time" have been "cured", and I'm okay with that.

Sure we can. And that's all we'll be when we're just barely able to stay above the .500 in nine years. Mediocre isn't good enough for me, and I don't know why some of you don't want to see if we can become more than mediocre. I agree that Little Rock is a pitiful sports city, but if we were able to get to post season every few years, beat some name programs ocassionally, and not have five losing seasons out of nine, things might change.

Several have posted that filling the seats shouldn't be the responsibility of the coach. If the coach is winning big time, it's easier for the SID and AD to do their job. If coaches don't have some responsiblity for attracting fans, why do successful programs fire coaches with mediocre records? How many coaches with five losing seasons out of nine years still are coaching at those schools? If they are, they are coaching at schools that have fans that don't give a ****.

The ones that win more division championships that ANY of their competitors?

(03-30-2012 06:04 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 05:33 PM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 04:03 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  You start beating Michigan State and other teams like that, and become good enough to get to the tournament and win some games, and I'll bet anything the fan base will improve. If Gonzaga and Butler can do it, others can also. How about Murray State.

But you have just about named the entire universe of those sorts of teams. It isn't a big crowd. But Mo Valley teams draw big even though they may not be one of those teams because that area has basketball fans.

Exactly. MoValley schools draw fans because they like basketball. Not because they are "great" every year, not because they have a coach with "sizzle", not because they go to the NCAA every year (this is the first time in several years they got 2 teams in). About 250 midmajor teams crave to be Gonzaga or Butler. Murray State has had one great season- we'll see what they do next year. Nothing wrong to espire to be Gonzago or Butler. But realistically its not going to happen. At least, I'm not holding my breath. Not sure why, but they are both private schools, who I'm sure have major financial donors. Can't think of a directional state school who has reached that level on a consistent basis. Actually, Gonzaga is the only one who has maintained for a decade or two. Butler hasn't done that yet.

Not hard to recruit in Indianapolis. Very small recruting budget necessary. Surprised that haven't been more competitive long before this.

(03-30-2012 10:30 PM)Jim Tripcony Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 06:04 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 05:33 PM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 04:03 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  You start beating Michigan State and other teams like that, and become good enough to get to the tournament and win some games, and I'll bet anything the fan base will improve. If Gonzaga and Butler can do it, others can also. How about Murray State.

But you have just about named the entire universe of those sorts of teams. It isn't a big crowd. But Mo Valley teams draw big even though they may not be one of those teams because that area has basketball fans.

Exactly. MoValley schools draw fans because they like basketball. Not because they are "great" every year, not because they have a coach with "sizzle", not because they go to the NCAA every year (this is the first time in several years they got 2 teams in). About 250 midmajor teams crave to be Gonzaga or Butler. Murray State has had one great season- we'll see what they do next year. Nothing wrong to espire to be Gonzago or Butler. But realistically its not going to happen. At least, I'm not holding my breath. Not sure why, but they are both private schools, who I'm sure have major financial donors. Can't think of a directional state school who has reached that level on a consistent basis. Actually, Gonzaga is the only one who has maintained for a decade or two. Butler hasn't done that yet.

Not hard to recruit in Indianapolis. Very small recruting budget necessary. Surprised that haven't been more competitive long before this.

Don't have to tell you that Indiana is a basketball state. People there love basketball. Here it's an afterthought. It will be interesting if Butler can continue what they started. Gonzaga has been consistently good for close to 20 years on a national level. No other midmajor can say that.

(03-30-2012 10:26 PM)Jim Tripcony Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 12:38 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 12:06 PM)mjs Wrote:   I've come to the reality that we can be a nice midmajor in a 5000 seat arena. Nothing wrong with that. My delusions of us being "big-time" have been "cured", and I'm okay with that.

Sure we can. And that's all we'll be when we're just barely able to stay above the .500 in nine years. Mediocre isn't good enough for me, and I don't know why some of you don't want to see if we can become more than mediocre. I agree that Little Rock is a pitiful sports city, but if we were able to get to post season every few years, beat some name programs ocassionally, and not have five losing seasons out of nine, things might change.

Several have posted that filling the seats shouldn't be the responsibility of the coach. If the coach is winning big time, it's easier for the SID and AD to do their job. If coaches don't have some responsiblity for attracting fans, why do successful programs fire coaches with mediocre records? How many coaches with five losing seasons out of nine years still are coaching at those schools? If they are, they are coaching at schools that have fans that don't give a ****.

The ones that win more division championships that ANY of their competitors?

No Division championships only matter when other schools win them (ex. ASU). When is the last time UAF won a division championship? Maybe 15 years ago. I'm proud to have won 5 Division championships. I enjoyed the NCAA bid last year, although I still put more importance on the regular season. It is amazing to me that we still have folks complaining after an NCAA bid last year and a Division championship this year. 10 schools would have been thrilled to finish 12-4 this season in the Sun Belt, but only 2 finished with 12 wins or more. I would take 12-4 next year, right now, in a heartbeat. I also don't see the point of this discussion since it is obvious Steve isn't going anywhere unless he choses to.

I agree that I was happy and somewhat amazed at our conference performance this year, but it confirms what I was trying to say. Every season we start out with some seemingly talented players, and we always say "Well by conference or tournament time we'll be pretty good". I want to be able to say that we'll be darn good starting with the first game of the season. And if you don't have a good retention rate among your players, you'll never have that. You normally can't win without good upper classmen, and if you don't have them most years because your turnover is too great, then your program can only be mediocre by full season standards. I can only look at the situation as an outsider. Like most of us, I'm not privy as to what goes on behind the scenes. I can only judge by what I see. That's wins and losses and whether the program is progressing or not. Is it? I hope so. Until good players say they really want to play at UALR, and are not there just because someone better didn't recruit them, we'll always be in this situation. Maybe that's every mid major's problem. I know we are split in whether we're better off recruiting freshmen or jucos. I have mixed emotions. If I knew that most of our freshmen would be here when they are juniors and seniors, I would definitely be in favor of recruiting high school players, but if we're only going to keep them two years anyway, I'll take a good juco.

(03-31-2012 09:12 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  I agree that I was happy and somewhat amazed at our conference performance this year, but it confirms what I was trying to say. Every season we start out with some seemingly talented players, and we always say "Well by conference or tournament time we'll be pretty good". I want to be able to say that we'll be darn good starting with the first game of the season. And if you don't have a good retention rate among your players, you'll never have that. You normally can't win without good upper classmen, and if you don't have them most years because your turnover is too great, then your program can only be mediocre by full season standards. I can only look at the situation as an outsider. Like most of us, I'm not privy as to what goes on behind the scenes. I can only judge by what I see. That's wins and losses and whether the program is progressing or not. Is it? I hope so. Until good players say they really want to play at UALR, and are not there just because someone better didn't recruit them, we'll always be in this situation. Maybe that's every mid major's problem. I know we are split in whether we're better off recruiting freshmen or jucos. I have mixed emotions. If I knew that most of our freshmen would be here when they are juniors and seniors, I would definitely be in favor of recruiting high school players, but if we're only going to keep them two years anyway, I'll take a good juco.

I would be interested to know if our turnover is really any different than most DI teams. I really don't follow any other teams so I don't know. I guess, since it's unavoidable, I do follow the team in NW Arkansas. I think it's safe to say they have had more turnover than us over the past 10-12 years.

(03-30-2012 10:20 PM)PTJR Wrote:  Tough to see how anyone can disagree with you on this one LRTrojan without agreeing that they are accepting losing is an acceptable standard. Which you and I do not.

Looking at the facts, I would think so, but it looks like you are the only one who agrees. I agree that Steve is a nice guy, graduates his players, and is a pretty good coach(but for whatever reasons, hasn't grown this program in nine years),but I'll be damned if I can figure out this love affair with him that most on this board have. If it's not a love affair, then our fans must look at the UALR program as they would a Little League baseball team. Everyone gets to play, everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season(here it's a division championship), and it doesn't matter if we win or lose," there's no crying in baseball"(basketball), and don't hurt anyone's self esteem.

Normally when we win the division championship, we're still the 3rd or 4th best team in a conference that's not highly regarded. That's the reason most of our fans like divisional play. Winning a division championship and finsihing first in the West, looks better than finishing 3rd or 4th in a league without divisions. And you get to hang a banner.

(03-31-2012 10:07 AM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 10:20 PM)PTJR Wrote:  Tough to see how anyone can disagree with you on this one LRTrojan without agreeing that they are accepting losing is an acceptable standard. Which you and I do not.

Looking at the facts, I would think so, but it looks like you are the only one who agrees. I agree that Steve is a nice guy, graduates his players, and is a pretty good coach(but for whatever reasons, hasn't grown this program in nine years),but I'll be damned if I can figure out this love affair with him that most on this board have. If it's not a love affair, then our fans must look at the UALR program as they would a Little League baseball team. Everyone gets to play, everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season(here it's a division championship), and it doesn't matter if we win or lose," there's no crying in baseball"(basketball), and don't hurt anyone's self esteem.

Normally when we win the division championship, we're still the 3rd or 4th best team in a conference that's not highly regarded. That's the reason most of our fans like divisional play. Winning a division championship and finsihing first in the West, looks better than finishing 3rd or 4th in a league without divisions. And you get to hang a banner.

Exactly. I'm looking forward to seeing another one hanging at the Stephens Center when next season comes around.

I'd rather see an overall championship banner, if there is one, and an NCAA banner to go with it. I can't see it happening this year however.

(03-31-2012 11:13 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  I'd rather see an overall championship banner, if there is one, and an NCAA banner to go with it. I can't see it happening this year however.

If we want to hang another banner, how about the Little Rock City Championship banner. We beat Phildnder Smith. You can about anything written on a banner that you're willing to pay for.

Has a nice ring to it.

(03-31-2012 10:15 AM)mjs Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 10:07 AM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 10:20 PM)PTJR Wrote:  Tough to see how anyone can disagree with you on this one LRTrojan without agreeing that they are accepting losing is an acceptable standard. Which you and I do not.

Looking at the facts, I would think so, but it looks like you are the only one who agrees. I agree that Steve is a nice guy, graduates his players, and is a pretty good coach(but for whatever reasons, hasn't grown this program in nine years),but I'll be damned if I can figure out this love affair with him that most on this board have. If it's not a love affair, then our fans must look at the UALR program as they would a Little League baseball team. Everyone gets to play, everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season(here it's a division championship), and it doesn't matter if we win or lose," there's no crying in baseball"(basketball), and don't hurt anyone's self esteem.

Normally when we win the division championship, we're still the 3rd or 4th best team in a conference that's not highly regarded. That's the reason most of our fans like divisional play. Winning a division championship and finsihing first in the West, looks better than finishing 3rd or 4th in a league without divisions. And you get to hang a banner.

Exactly. I'm looking forward to seeing another one hanging at the Stephens Center when next season comes around.

This thread pretty well illustrates why coaches love divisions, and some fans don't. As LRTrojan points out, it has been been possible to be no better than the third or fourth best team in the conference, yet the administration, coaches, and some fans can proudly point to a "Divisional Championship" as if it counts for something. In a higher ranked league, it might actually count for something, like an NCAA AT LARGE BID! In the Sun Belt it doesn't count for squat.

I know I'm tired of the mediocre. Maybe its because I haven't lived in the Rock the past few years now, but I'm not excited about the Trojans men's program at this point. This was the first season I didn't really follow them too much. However, I have become a big Lady Trojans supporter now. I'm glad that fans like RBL, Tripcony, and MJS support the program no matter what, but I guess I'm young and have grand dreams of what our program could be, like what MJS said he had when he was younger. So if you have a once die hard Trojan fan and alum like me that is not excited about the program, I can imagine how some ordinary folks feel about the Trojans. I still wear my Trojan tees when I get the opportunity and have my alumni plate on my car and feel good about my university, but I just can't say I'm excited for our men's program. Maybe next season it'll change. I guess I'm glad I'm not like one of my co-workers that is an UALR alum that you would think he went to UAF. He is a die hard Razorback fan and talks down on our men's program. I'm sure that is the norm for most UALR alums. Which is sad, but it's hard to argue the positive of our program when we haven't beaten any good known teams over the past decade. Just my two cents...

(03-31-2012 02:43 PM)LR Alum Wrote:  I know I'm tired of the mediocre. Maybe its because I haven't lived in the Rock the past few years now, but I'm not excited about the Trojans men's program at this point. This was the first season I didn't really follow them too much. However, I have become a big Lady Trojans supporter now. I'm glad that fans like RBL, Tripcony, and MJS support the program no matter what, but I guess I'm young and have grand dreams of what our program could be, like what MJS said he had when he was younger. So if you have a once die hard Trojan fan and alum like me that is not excited about the program, I can imagine how some ordinary folks feel about the Trojans. I still wear my Trojan tees when I get the opportunity and have my alumni plate on my car and feel good about my university, but I just can't say I'm excited for our men's program. Maybe next season it'll change. I guess I'm glad I'm not like one of my co-workers that is an UALR alum that you would think he went to UAF. He is a die hard Razorback fan and talks down on our men's program. I'm sure that is the norm for most UALR alums. Which is sad, but it's hard to argue the positive of our program when we haven't beaten any good known teams over the past decade. Just my two cents...

Glad to hear from an alum who cares whether Little Rock wins or losses. And you are absolutely right. We have not had a win over a BCS type team in a long, long time. At least not since they fired Kevin Fricke, who had a real talent for finding and scheduling those type of teams who were beatable.

(03-31-2012 10:07 AM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 10:20 PM)PTJR Wrote:  Tough to see how anyone can disagree with you on this one LRTrojan without agreeing that they are accepting losing is an acceptable standard. Which you and I do not.

Looking at the facts, I would think so, but it looks like you are the only one who agrees. I agree that Steve is a nice guy, graduates his players, and is a pretty good coach(but for whatever reasons, hasn't grown this program in nine years),but I'll be damned if I can figure out this love affair with him that most on this board have. If it's not a love affair, then our fans must look at the UALR program as they would a Little League baseball team. Everyone gets to play, everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season(here it's a division championship), and it doesn't matter if we win or lose," there's no crying in baseball"(basketball), and don't hurt anyone's self esteem.

Normally when we win the division championship, we're still the 3rd or 4th best team in a conference that's not highly regarded. That's the reason most of our fans like divisional play. Winning a division championship and finsihing first in the West, looks better than finishing 3rd or 4th in a league without divisions. [b]And you get to hang a banner.[/b]

Which none of the other teams in the division get to do most years.

I understand the other teams in our division are going to raid the Stephens Center, steal those banners and distribute them among themselves. Jealousy is such a corrupting trait.