[/quote]

I can guarantee that a MAC East hoops division would provide PLENTY of competition.

Take Ohio, Akron, UB, Kent State and add UMass, ODU JMU and Delaware that 8-some compares very well with the current CAA.

As all MAC fans know, the MAC West is very weak in hoops but that doesn't affect the "MAC East" too much as there wouldn't be many East/West crossover games.

The BIG thing, I see, is that the FB newbies get a break playing in the FB-weaker MAC East. Avoiding Toledo, NIU, WMU, etc. is a good thing.

The FB-newbies have a better chance to win in the MAC East which is what they should want.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree that being in the weaker FB east would be a good thing for awhile, but I think our long-term goal would be to make the East BETTER than the West. I recognize how good some of the West teams are (my boss is an NIU grad)...but even though we're FCS...JMU, Del and ODU are GOOD football programs. With the MAC name and FBS label, our recruiting would only get better.

(03-29-2012 09:39 AM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  I don't think many are screaming to kick UMass out, but rather asking to exercise the contract option that would force UMass to make a certain choice.

Yes, I'm aware there's several different angles to this. That's why I repeatedly stated that I'm speaking to the "all sports or nothing" crowd, particularly the ones who want to look south.

Quote:The MAC hasn't approached WKU since the last time it turned them down and nobody in the Sun Belt has turned down the MAC. What sort of adolescent jab is that?

I wasn't saying they had. Because my list of facts and figures apparently hadn't convinced some people that CUSA would be a more desirable location than the MAC to southern schools, I was trying to create an analogous situation to make the same point. Let me put the question to you: Do you think WKU would leave the Sun Belt for the MAC if invited? And if you're not 100% certain they would, wouldn't it logically follow that if choosing between the MAC or Sun Belt is a difficult choice for a southern school, MAC vs. CUSA would be an easy choice, particularly for a southern school which wouldn't even have WKU's travel advantages in the MAC? Do we agree that CUSA is a better conference than the Sun Belt? I have it on the authority of Charlotte fans that it is.

Or maybe it's a sure thing that WKU would come straight over to the MAC. This would be a good time to communicate that so I don't keep using that example to try to prove my point. Let's get WKU over here to be the 14th team and end the anxiety about that. The MAC wanted them before. Are they not wanted now?

Quote:Again, it's not about UMass leaving. The MAC understands that it isn't losing anything of value if UMass football were to leave the conference and the conference went back to the core 12 members.

That's it. Pretty simple. UMass football is jack**** but the BB brand and branding opportunities -

Should I be offended now? "How dare you insult UMass Football by suggesting it's of no value to the MAC!" "How dare you use reasoning to justify that position!" The board etiquette here is dizzying. Maybe the Temple fans didn't start out as pricks, they just went insane over time.

Anyway, yes, UMass Football is coming up from FCS. That perception generally doesn't carry much immediate value. But the thing about FCS upgrades is, they don't stay FCS upgrades, they become FBS. It's the same as how MAC teams still recruit high schoolers, even though they're generally useless the first year or two. They do eventually become seniors. Hence the great importance of recruiting high schoolers who aren't just going to transfer to a CUSA program as soon as they're ready to contribute to the team.

Is that not the biggest concern? Am I mistaken? Did the MAC have some 5th year senior from the BCS waiting to transfer in? Or even a Sun Belt freshmen? If the MAC is only recruiting high schoolers like UMass, how am I missing the mark on what's really important?

Only two sports matter: football and basketball. Our cross country team does nothing for MAC branding in the northeast. It doesn't do anything for A10 branding in the northeast. A MAC/A10 UMass gives the MAC 100% of its football and 25% of its basketball, with a low likelihood of leaving. Whereas a MAC/MAC UMass, although temporarily increasing its basketball presence, has a high likelihood of leaving at the next opportunity, as does a MAC ODU, as does a MAC JMU. As does just about anyone worth inviting except a few suggestions I named previously (NDSU, maybe UNI).

Sidenote: Do you think the Big East regrets inviting UConn? They already had all the UConn sports of value when they did that. Would their football conference be in a better position now if UConn left? UConn is just some FCS call-up playing in an off-campus stadium.

Quote:

(03-29-2012 12:13 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  That's my response to the people who are fed up with teams leaving the MAC.

That's a smaller group than you think.

That is nevertheless who I was addressing.

If you think the MAC should part ways with UMass and go back to 12, that's a reasonable position.

If you think the MAC should part ways with UMass and bring in UNI and NDSU, that's at least a defensible position.

If you think the MAC should part ways with UMass and bring in someone far more likely to leave the MAC, all because of the football-only vs. all-sports issue, that's where I question your sanity. That makes no sense whatsoever.

If you think the MAC should keep UMass, but only as an all-sports member, you'll have convince me why greatly increasing the likelihood of UMass moving to another conference as soon as football gets good is in the MAC's best interest, because I'm out of ways to explain why it's not. Is that risk really worth 6 more home basketball games, divided among 12 teams? And our cross country team?

Quote:

(03-29-2012 12:13 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  That's slow-learning on a Big East level.

You had to punctuate the post with another petulant jab?

It's an accurate description of someone who breaks his finger with a hammer and then tries to fix it with another hammer. If you weren't reaching for that particular hammer, then it wasn't a jab at you. Fortunately, it's still a jab at the Big East.

The MAC West has been weak, but it hasn't always been like that. Ball State and EMU are two of the better MAC programs in history. Toledo and EMU will both be back in the top 5 of the MAC next year after many years of drought. Just like the West is owning football, the East still has had 1 or 2 teams that could compete, and there were definatly era's where the MAC was led by teams in the East. Just like basketball and the West.

We want the JMU women (like in hoops) in the MAC. See below:

http://www.jmusports.com/SplashPage.dbml..._ID=573513

(03-30-2012 06:03 AM)emu steve Wrote:  We want the JMU women (like in hoops) in the MAC. See below:

http://www.jmusports.com/SplashPage.dbml..._ID=573513

1) I think you want the local schools to join so that you can more easily see emu play
2) yes our women's team is legit and Kenny brooks is doing an excellent job as hc. We were snubbed from the dance although our rpi was in the mid 30s and now were in the wnit championship game. We deserved a bid.
3) our non-basketball playing women are known for their hotness too. but even Nikki Newman on the team is a babe.

(03-30-2012 06:59 AM)Dukes09 Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 06:03 AM)emu steve Wrote:  We want the JMU women (like in hoops) in the MAC. See below:

http://www.jmusports.com/SplashPage.dbml..._ID=573513

1) I think you want the local schools to join so that you can more easily see emu play
2) yes our women's team is legit and Kenny brooks is doing an excellent job as hc. We were snubbed from the dance although our rpi was in the mid 30s and now were in the wnit championship game. We deserved a bid.
3) our non-basketball playing women are known for their hotness too. but even Nikki Newman on the team is a babe.

You are right on all counts.

I live in No.Va. and have co-worker/friends who attended Va Tech and they attest to #3.

I guessed #2 based on the JMU splash page.

Re: #1 - IF JMU Played @ say Maryland, Navy, etc. I would cross the river into Maryland and watch the game.

That said, whenever EMU came to JMU, ODU, or Delaware I'd attend the game.

I know that the mac fans on this board are open to the idea of expansion, but what about the Mac admin? Have their been any statements to indicate that they are considering anything? I expect vcu and gmu to formally announce something after July 1. That's when the NCAA tourney payouts since 2006 will be issued and if they leave before then, they're ineligible for the money. I anticipate that as the date that the CAA goes into panic mode. Hopefully something will solidify before or around then.

The MAC admins seem to be open to expansion in general considering we have added a number of teams the past two decades to varying degrees of success. NIU has been a boon in football. Marshal was a boon while they were here though I think the office underestimated their desire o be with a "southern league" (this may or may not hurt the likes of ODU, JMU, and Delaware). Akron has been good for basketball though that has been diluted due to Kent being in the same exact area and also doing well in the same sport (soccer has been a boon but who cares?). Temple was overall a boon due to being competitive at the end and obviously giving us a nice pay check. The only odd ball was UCF which for the life of me I cannot see what the long term plan behind it was outside of just helping a school out (which oddly the MAC is one of the only leagues where I could ever see that as a possibility though even here I doubt it). UMass looks was a good plan while Temple was here but now we have to wonder what we should do that is best for everyone.

I also know we turned down WKU.

I agree with the post above.

One thing about WKU. I believe it would have made sense ONLY if Middle Tennessee State would have come along as well.

That is one of those, like JMU and ODU, they make more sense together than separately.

I'll guess that Marshall's 'Southern' orientation won't be an issue with JMU/ODU/Delaware. I never understood the Marshall fans. I'd swear they thought they were in the deep south, not just a short drive into Ohio.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider all three universities of be of 'mid-atlantic' persona and they would be completely at home within a midwest/mid-atlantic conference.

(03-30-2012 12:06 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  

Quote:The MAC hasn't approached WKU since the last time it turned them down and nobody in the Sun Belt has turned down the MAC. What sort of adolescent jab is that?

I wasn't saying they had...

I know you weren't, but what exactly was the point of throwing that out there? WKU is so far from the MAC radar that indulging your "analogous situation" is pointless. Even in your hypothetical, you're talking about #14 and the whole point here is that you do not address #14 until you've settled #13. And yes, #13 is in limbo.

(03-30-2012 12:06 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  

Quote:Again, it's not about UMass leaving. The MAC understands that it isn't losing anything of value if UMass football were to leave the conference and the conference went back to the core 12 members.

That's it. Pretty simple. UMass football is jack**** but the BB brand and branding opportunities -

Should I be offended now?...

That's up to you. But I wasn't trying to be offensive.

Fact is that UMass is coming up from FCS and has a long way to go.

An "analogous situation" would be UConn to an extent. And sure they won their division one year and played in a BCS bowl (but had a losing record against the MAC that year), but really what does the casual college football fan and even the die-hard college football fan think of UConn football? Answer that honestly. Now tell me how much value UMass football will bring. The value in UMass is, and will always be, the BB and Northeast brand (which is very solid) and of course the academics and integrity as an institution.

Remember: UMass football was never coming on its own. It had to bring a BB scheduling agreement along with it , plus the element that its addition somehow appeased Temple (no longer bringing that) and that is was alleviating scheduling issues stemming from having unbalanced divisions (again, no long helping there and in fact now the source of this). Did you notice something there? For the arrangement to continue to be MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL, UMass needs to sweeten the pot. Fortunately, this was addressed while drafting the contract. Now it's up to the MAC to have UMass make the call.

(03-30-2012 12:06 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  A MAC/A10 UMass gives the MAC 100% of its football and 25% of its basketball, with a low likelihood of leaving.

It's pretty self-important of you to continue to bang that drum.

IT IS NOT ABOUT UMASS LEAVING.

MAC administration would not have put the clause in the contract if it wasn't equally content with UMass joining as a full member or leaving.

(03-30-2012 12:06 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  If you think the MAC should part ways with UMass and go back to 12, that's a reasonable position.

If you think the MAC should part ways with UMass and bring in UNI and NDSU, that's at least a defensible position.

If you think the MAC should part ways with UMass and bring in someone far more likely to leave the MAC, all because of the football-only vs. all-sports issue, that's where I question your sanity. That makes no sense whatsoever.

If you think the MAC should keep UMass, but only as an all-sports member, you'll have convince me why greatly increasing the likelihood of UMass moving to another conference as soon as football gets good is in the MAC's best interest, because I'm out of ways to explain why it's not. Is that risk really worth 6 more home basketball games, divided among 12 teams? And our cross country team?

- What I'm saying is that the MAC has to address the quandary it has found itself in with the current odd-numbered member. There is no reason to discuss what the course of action will be regarding #14 until everything is settled with #13.

- Regarding the bolded section above: No, actually I don't.

(03-30-2012 12:06 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  

Quote:

(03-29-2012 12:13 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  That's slow-learning on a Big East level.

You had to punctuate the post with another petulant jab?

It's an accurate description of someone who breaks his finger with a hammer and then tries to fix it with another hammer. If you weren't reaching for that particular hammer, then it wasn't a jab at you. Fortunately, it's still a jab at the Big East.

Noted.

So what is it if you continue to reach for that "do-you-think-UMass-won't-leave-if" hammer?

(03-30-2012 10:07 AM)emu steve Wrote:  I'll guess that Marshall's 'Southern' orientation won't be an issue with JMU/ODU/Delaware.

I disagree.

I think it would be a BIG issue with ODU. NO to ODU.

If JMU's students and alums really come from/work in the DC metro area/NOVA (as seems to be the case) then I do not think that would be an issue for JMU.

Also, JMU's profile of being in a smallerish college town within driving distance (1-2 hours) from a large metro area (DC) fits the MAC school profile. ODU's profile (urban setting with a significant %age of the enrollment being commuter students) fits much more with CUSA/Big East.

I do think there would be a risk of JMU wanting to be in the same conference as ODU if it were ever to move up to FBS as well, but their profile differences may be enough to keep the set of interested conferences distinct. The MAC does not need to be an incubator for an FCS team to go to another conference. If a conference wants ODU, let that conference help ODU to their feet.

But #14 isn't an issue until #13 is settled. I hope the MAC office is working on that.

(03-30-2012 11:37 AM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  If a conference wants ODU, let that conference help ODU to their feet.

What if the MAC wants ODU?

(03-30-2012 11:37 AM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  But #14 isn't an issue until #13 is settled. I hope the MAC office is working on that.

#13 won't be settled until you can guarantee whether or not there will be a #14.

(03-30-2012 11:40 AM)uakronkid Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 11:37 AM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  If a conference wants ODU, let that conference help ODU to their feet.

What if the MAC wants ODU?

(03-30-2012 11:37 AM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  But #14 isn't an issue until #13 is settled. I hope the MAC office is working on that.

#13 won't be settled until you can guarantee whether or not there will be a #14.

I think 'Kid is right AND it might be easier to get to 16 than 14.

Just like the A-10 is more likely to get BOTH VCU and Mason than either alone.

And connecting the dots...

It might be easier to get to 16, than 14, IF both VCU and Mason go to the A-10.

At that point the dynamics for JMU, ODU and Delaware in the CAA change DRAMATICALLY.

JMU's big rival is Mason.

I believe VCU's big rival is ODU.

I'm trying to paint a picture of how the landscape changes so dramatically that JMU, ODU, and Delaware reconsider EVERYTHING, e.g., FBS FB, and hoops conference membership based on their desires and whatwould be happening within the CAA.

BTW, what is ODU's persona?

(03-30-2012 11:40 AM)uakronkid Wrote:  What if the MAC wants ODU?

Then, nothing has changed.

(03-30-2012 11:40 AM)uakronkid Wrote:  #13 won't be settled until you can guarantee whether or not there will be a #14.

No, #13 is independent of that. If #13 is UMass. But if it's not, than the MAC is back to 12 and at that point #13 and #14 can be spoken about as a group.

Maybe a better way to say it is that the MAC needs to clear up the whole "UMass/#13" situation first.

I'm sure that Steinbrecher has several plans in motion and is actively discussing them. There are many moving parts right now and he is likely not rushing into anything as the MAC has no reason to rush and many things could fall into the MAC's lap.

I know many will think of this as having no chance of happening, but I still think that especially with the Alliance talks seeming to be somewhat breaking down that there is still a chance the MAC can persuade Marshall back all-sports and perhaps East Carolina as a football-only member (they have talked about parking their other sports in the CAA in that scenario). ECU would be worth the football-only status to balance out UMass for now.

There are several reasons why the Alliance may not happen at all or may happen in a scaled down scheduling agreement that is mostly ineffective as originally planned. (Big East adding west teams like AFA, no consensus among CUSA and MWC teams, or TV money not being there)

- If the TV money is reduced (either in an Alliance or CUSA if Alliance doesnt happen) to a point where it doesn't support the extra travel. ECU's nickname for C-USA is C-TEX
- UTEP and Tulsa go to MWC and CUSA destablizes
- If ECU finally gets their Big East invite, then Marshall is a slam-dunk to the MAC I think.
- Marshall decides on their own to come to MAC, then ECU is attached at the hip

Surprisingly, ECU fans are more open to some sort of MAC agreement than many would expect given more turbulence to their current set-up although Marshall makes the most sense as they are in our backyard and routinely play Ohio and Miami already (will play Ohio each of the next 6 years and Miami 4 of the next 6 years).

A good scenario would be adding Marshall and JMU all-sports and ECU football only to balance UMass.

I think there needs to be a balance between being pro-active and waiting to see how some of this shakes out. I wouldn't want to add JMU, UDel, and ODU to get to the MAC-16 and then find out that CUSA destabilizes and Marshall and ECU want in when there is no room left. What becomes of MWC and CUSA is very much in the air.

(03-30-2012 01:02 PM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  What becomes of MWC and CUSA is very much in the air.

That's essentially what many schools east of the Mississippi river are waiting on. We want to know what the heck Marshall and ECU are doing. They don't want to "downgrade" themselves by playing with MAC and FCS schools, but they may be given little choice if and when the CUSA falls through.

The loss of Butler on the Horizon could be huge. MAC could go after Cleveland State,Valpo, UW Milwaukee and Detroit. That would add significant depth to MAC hoops that is lacking especially in the west division. MAC needs new blood in the MAC west to motivate those teams to get better faster.

(03-30-2012 01:09 PM)OhioBobcatJohn Wrote:  The loss of Butler on the Horizon could be huge. MAC could go after Cleveland State,Valpo, UW Milwaukee and Detroit. That would add significant depth to MAC hoops that is lacking especially in the west division. MAC needs new blood in the MAC west to motivate those teams to get better faster.

Adding a non FBS football school does us zero good.

We'd be better off eliminating the divisions in everything except football. The West has been bad in basketball, and frankly, a few coaches were able to stay longer than what they deserved...all because of fools gold in winning the West.

We've talked about this before, there are only 3 other conferences that still use two divisions in basketball. The Southland, Southern and Sun Belt...and we should not be striving to follow them. The Big Ten got it right when they added Nebraska by only going to 2 divisions in football.

(03-30-2012 01:13 PM)EA3 Wrote:  We'd be better off eliminating the divisions in everything except football.

Probably so. But as you've touched on, "winning the West/East" has appeal to AD's.

(03-30-2012 01:33 PM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 01:13 PM)EA3 Wrote:  We'd be better off eliminating the divisions in everything except football.

Probably so. But as you've touched on, "winning the West/East" has appeal to AD's.

True...it helps them keep their jobs too :)