(03-26-2012 12:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-26-2012 09:39 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  So, let me get this straight. I see a guy in my neighborhood which has had recent criminal activity, he looks suspicious wearing traditional criminal garb (IE...hoody), I decide to follow him while armed (following a suspected criminal unarmed is crazy), he gets freaked out and attacks me, while attacking me he utters something like "I'm gonna kill you" (just a hypothetical), and I pull my gun while being battered and shoot my attacker.
Following someone isn't illegal. Being a racist isn't illegal. Carrying a gun with the right permit isn't illegal. According to an eyewitness Trevon attacked Zimmerman which is illegal.
Case closed.

Here's the problem with that. If Zimmerman caused Martin to have a reasonable fear for his safety, then what Martin did could be construed legally as self-defense and not an attack. It's maybe a harder case to make if Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind. But it's also claimed that the attack consisted of punching him in the nose, and I don't quite see how you punch somebody in the nose from behind.

Something here simply doesn't add up.

I have one question that I'm trying to find an answer to. What time of day (or night) did this happen?

Unfortunately I'm not so sure a FL court buys your assumption that "self defense" and "attack" are mutually exclusive for the purposes of SYG. Maybe, but it's a guessing game at this point, this being a new statute lacking definitions.

I think you might be referring to me when I said, hypothetically, that maybe Martin started it by punching Zimmerman in the nose. I have no idea if that's true; Zimmerman's nose was broken but I do not know if that was from the initial confrontation. They did both end up on the ground according to this anonymous witness so the nose punch could have come later. Of course Zimmerman will say he was attacked from behind and when Martin was on top of him moments later THEN he broke his nose.

It's true like many say that the facts are still coming out, but what troubles me is 1. there appears to be enough evidence to at the very least establish probable cause to make an arrest and bring it to a jury yet this has not been done and 2. it's quite possible SYG and its removal of the duty to retreat could be the difference between a conviction and acquittal.

Also I've seen reports saying it was at night.

Police are now saying that at the time, Zman claims he confronted Martin and then was heading back to his car and Martin coldcocked him from behind.

(03-26-2012 03:28 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Police are now saying that at the time, Zman claims he confronted Martin and then was heading back to his car and Martin coldcocked him from behind.

I don't know if Zimmerman is legally guilty of murder or not at this point but it's pretty clear *HE* created the situation and if he walks away from this he needs to lose his CCL...

(03-26-2012 03:32 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I don't know if Zimmerman is legally guilty of murder or not at this point....

How many people call 911 when they commit a murder?

(03-26-2012 05:47 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-26-2012 03:32 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I don't know if Zimmerman is legally guilty of murder or not at this point....

How many people call 911 when they commit a murder?

He didn't call 911 a witness did after she and her roommate asked him repeatedly what had happened and approached the scene catching him red-handed.

(03-26-2012 07:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2012 10:14 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(03-25-2012 10:07 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Sorry umflunk, you assume wrong. Already listened to cnn's version. It's kind of cute that they want you to believe something that they admit they aren't sure of.

There's no assuming going on. You've given plenty of evidence that you are either mentally deficient or an insincere liar. CNN's analysis makes it very clear. Now that the bigoted Sanford police can't hide their incompetence anymore, we'll get a unbiased investigation. If that unbiased investigation clears Zimmerman, then so be it. If not, then he deserves punishment under the law. That's what we on left want, and what you on the right are fighting against.

I want exactly what you say you want. I guess that means I'm not one of those on the right. Or maybe your generalization is way overly broad.

What I've actually seen are lots of indications that many on the left want him acquitted based on the "stand your ground" law, so they can use this case as a poster child to attack gun rights. And quite frankly, I see a lot on the right trying to defend Zimmerman's actions based on that law. Zimmerman may in fact be innocent, and even if not actually innocent he may be found not guilty, but the "stand your ground" law should not be the reason. He was not attacked. As the thread title states, he "stalked and killed" Martin.

It's really kind of interesting how this situation has people on both sides taking positions that they might not otherwise.

Don't pretend like we're on the same side of this issue. You're throwing Zimmerman under the bus because you're afraid that his actions might make it tougher for you to tote your gun around and shoot scary brown people without fear of prosecution. I just want a thorough and honest investigation.

(03-26-2012 08:45 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  I just want a thorough and honest investigation.

How do you know that hasn't been done? Is it because you didn't get the result you wanted?

(03-26-2012 08:45 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  scary brown people

What makes them scary? And if you're scared, in fear for your life, then yes, the law says you can pull trigger.

Black people aren't doing themselves any favors among us crackers otherwise they wouldn't be stereotyped as "scary." BTW, when you see all those videos of clerks being shot and robbed at 7/11 stores, they always seem to be black dudes with hoodies. You need to tell your homies to change their MO or they risk everyone who wears a sweat shirt being labeled as a 7/11 robber.

Come on UM, if white folks are afraid of blacks then why don't you tell us the cause for it. You label most whites as being racist and many whites don't have a favorable impression of a black man at three o'clock in the morning and he's wearing a hoodie when it's warm out.

So why do whites seem to have this inherent fear of blacks? is it for no reason?

Fear of blacks...LMFAO. Why is anyone afraid of black people? I think socioeconomic status has more to do with crime (violent) than color.

He should hope that he goes to jail. I don't think he lasts too long if he's out free at the end of all of this.

(03-27-2012 12:57 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  He should hope that he goes to jail. I don't think he lasts too long if he's out free at the end of all of this.

I don't know....he does carry a pistol.

(03-27-2012 01:03 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 12:57 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  He should hope that he goes to jail. I don't think he lasts too long if he's out free at the end of all of this.

I don't know....he does carry a pistol.

He does and he'll probably need it.

(03-27-2012 01:03 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 12:57 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  He should hope that he goes to jail. I don't think he lasts too long if he's out free at the end of all of this.

I don't know....he does carry a pistol.

If he is so dietraught about killing the kid maybe he can :help himself"?

(03-26-2012 09:37 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Come on UM, if white folks are afraid of blacks then why don't you tell us the cause for it. You label most whites as being racist and many whites don't have a favorable impression of a black man at three o'clock in the morning and he's wearing a hoodie when it's warm out.

So why do whites seem to have this inherent fear of blacks? is it for no reason?

Blacks generally have less wealth and education, which correlates with crime (Why would you steal anything or burgle if you're white and born into money with a trust fund to take care of you?), so they do have a higher crime rate. However, the public does overestimate the rate. Whites think blacks are responsible for 40% of violent crime when it is 30%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_cr...ted_States

Quote:Further, a study conducted in 2002 found that the general public holds the belief that African Americans are involved in a greater percentage of violent crime (39.4%) than stated in victim surveys for completed violent crime (29.4%).

Have you seen the Hunger Games?

(03-27-2012 02:02 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(03-26-2012 09:37 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Come on UM, if white folks are afraid of blacks then why don't you tell us the cause for it. You label most whites as being racist and many whites don't have a favorable impression of a black man at three o'clock in the morning and he's wearing a hoodie when it's warm out.

So why do whites seem to have this inherent fear of blacks? is it for no reason?

Blacks generally have less wealth and education, which correlates with crime (Why would you steal anything or burgle if you're white and born into money with a trust fund to take care of you?), so they do have a higher crime rate. However, the public does overestimate the rate. Whites think blacks are responsible for 40% of violent crime when it is 30%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_cr...ted_States

Quote:Further, a study conducted in 2002 found that the general public holds the belief that African Americans are involved in a greater percentage of violent crime (39.4%) than stated in victim surveys for completed violent crime (29.4%).

Have you seen the Hunger Games?

Actually happens all the time. They just don't get arrested for doing so or if they do get arrested, they beat the charge in court.

Family structure and upbringing, along with the teaching of values and difference between right and wrong, is likely the #1 determinant of a youth's (or is it "yutes"?) potential criminal behavior. Regardless of race or ethnicity. If a father disappeared after conception and the mother is emotionally and figuratively absent from the child's life - or if the parent(s) consistently shows delinquent behavior themselves - then the child's path will probably go astray.

Yes, I think education and income have some influence, but nowhere near as much as the aforementioned stuff. A poor, inner city kid surrounded by a nurturing parent(s) and supportive relatives will likely turn out fine. A rich kid with a drunk mom and cheating dad is more at risk to wind up a problem teen.