The quad is dead, and I need a break from stomach-aids for the Texas loss.

Recently I decided to buy a very simple appliance: a teakettle (preferably stainless steel and electric, but I'm not picky, except no plastic).

To summarize a long search: everything is made in China (or occasionally Thailand). I found that products touted in blog entries as being European or US-made had all moved operations to China, many as recently as the last couple years. Braun, Kitchenaid, Oxo, Michael Graves, Cuisinart, even Le Creuset! All made in China. I checked every teakettle sold in Target and other stores: China.

I knew it was bad, but this is ridiculous. I took my search online. The only non-Chinese teakettle I could find was made in Germany and cost nearly $300.

This seems wrong. I'm not anti-China per se, but it makes no sense for everything to be manufactured on the other side of the Earth. This strikes me as a gross waste of resources. I spoke of this to my mother, and she pooh-poohed my concerns saying, "well those people in China have very little and they're happy to have the money they get". I have to think this attitude is common, and it saddens me. I want nothing to do with companies that manufacture in these countries (for one thing, they still charge the same prices they did before, and if you check their reviews product quality has taken a nosedive).

My boyfriend claims that a movement to "buy local" will never gain sufficient steam to overcome the profit motive to move manufacturing overseas. He's probably right. I guess I'm interested to see where other minds stand on this. It's not something that comes up much and most people seem perfectly happy buying things made in asia. I'm not taking a particular political stance (nor am I sure what the "left" or "right" stances are anyway), I would just like the *option* to buy things made in the US, and I am amazed that that option doesn't exist.

I guess it will be self-correcting in the long term, assuming living standards continue rising in the 2.5 - 3rd world countries so that these differentials cannot produce such a profit motive. Rising fuel costs may do it even sooner.

Until then, I guess I'll keep using the microwave...

I sure don't know all the answers, but last week 60 minutes had a big feature on all the US companies that had moved operations out of our country. They said the taxes here were driving them away, plus all the govt. regulations. I'm sure labor is cheaper too. It hurts me to see it, but I guess if I were running a company I'd try to maximize my profits too.

Imagine if all the US Corporations moved their manufacturing operations from the evil People's Republic of China to somewhere close by, such as Mexico.

A big uplift for the Mexican People who then wouldn't have to depend on the Cartels to make a living.

(09-05-2011 12:27 PM)emmiesix Wrote:  I'm not anti-China per se, but it makes no sense for everything to be manufactured on the other side of the Earth. This strikes me as a gross waste of resources... I want nothing to do with companies that manufacture in these countries (for one thing, they still charge the same prices they did before, and if you check their reviews product quality has taken a nosedive)...

It's not something that comes up much and most people seem perfectly happy buying things made in asia. I'm not taking a particular political stance (nor am I sure what the "left" or "right" stances are anyway), I would just like the *option* to buy things made in the US, and I am amazed that that option doesn't exist.

I'm sorry, but why is it exactly that you don't want to buy a tea kettle made in China? I can't quite tell, though I've quoted what seemed to be the closest thing in your post. There seem to be two: (1) waste of resources, and (2) prices are too high for the quality provided. Though (2) seems more like a complaint about the situation, because as you indicate, the only other options are so expensive as to not be any better value ($300 German tea kettles.) So what do you mean by waste of resources?

I'm as skeptical of the profit motive and global capitalism as anyone here (that I know of). But I'm positive very many of my things are manufactured in China and Asia more generally. As for when things might change, it's an empirical question, but I don't think any widespread buy local movement would ever be enough to displace current manufacturing models. I think it will take the next technological revolution (i.e., agricultural revolution, industrial revolution). The good news is that the next revolution has already started: the information revolution, to give it a name. There's no telling just how far along we will be in 50 or 100 years, and I think there's a good chance cheap mechanized highly skilled production will open up the possibility of local manufacturing and displace current production models where the use of resources to maximize profits by manufacturing in the poorest parts of the world makes sense. But I don't think that's going to change before your microwave breaks down, unfortunately.

(09-05-2011 12:27 PM)emmiesix Wrote:  The quad is dead, and I need a break from stomach-aids for the Texas loss.

Recently I decided to buy a very simple appliance: a teakettle (preferably stainless steel and electric, but I'm not picky, except no plastic).

To summarize a long search: everything is made in China (or occasionally Thailand). I found that products touted in blog entries as being European or US-made had all moved operations to China, many as recently as the last couple years. Braun, Kitchenaid, Oxo, Michael Graves, Cuisinart, even Le Creuset! All made in China. I checked every teakettle sold in Target and other stores: China.

Walmart opened a new "Super Walmart" in Shanghai. If you shop there all the items for sale have stickers on them that say "Made Here."

(09-05-2011 12:27 PM)emmiesix Wrote:  The quad is dead,

Ergo, long live the Quad?

(09-05-2011 12:27 PM)emmiesix Wrote:  Recently I decided to buy a very simple appliance: a teakettle (preferably stainless steel and electric, but I'm not picky, except no plastic).

To summarize a long search: everything is made in China (or occasionally Thailand). I found that products touted in blog entries as being European or US-made had all moved operations to China, many as recently as the last couple years. Braun, Kitchenaid, Oxo, Michael Graves, Cuisinart, even Le Creuset! All made in China. I checked every teakettle sold in Target and other stores: China.

I knew it was bad, but this is ridiculous. I took my search online. The only non-Chinese teakettle I could find was made in Germany and cost nearly $300.

This seems wrong. I'm not anti-China per se, but it makes no sense for everything to be manufactured on the other side of the Earth. This strikes me as a gross waste of resources. I spoke of this to my mother, and she pooh-poohed my concerns saying, "well those people in China have very little and they're happy to have the money they get". I have to think this attitude is common, and it saddens me. I want nothing to do with companies that manufacture in these countries (for one thing, they still charge the same prices they did before, and if you check their reviews product quality has taken a nosedive).

My boyfriend claims that a movement to "buy local" will never gain sufficient steam to overcome the profit motive to move manufacturing overseas. He's probably right. I guess I'm interested to see where other minds stand on this. It's not something that comes up much and most people seem perfectly happy buying things made in asia. I'm not taking a particular political stance (nor am I sure what the "left" or "right" stances are anyway), I would just like the *option* to buy things made in the US, and I am amazed that that option doesn't exist.

I guess it will be self-correcting in the long term, assuming living standards continue rising in the 2.5 - 3rd world countries so that these differentials cannot produce such a profit motive. Rising fuel costs may do it even sooner.

What might cause those living standards to rise? Surely limiting non-Western countries to purely extractive industries and shutting them out of Western markets for finished goods would NOT cause that.

I guess I will take the devil's advocate bait...

There was a time when nails were made by the local blacksmith. That was a nice gig for the blacksmith, but the outsourcing of nail production to factories in distant counties was surely good for everyone else.

More generally, if every locality consumed only what it produced itself, the result would be a such a contraction in total wealth as to be mind-boggling. We would find not merely that most people's living standards would fall dramatically; the reduction in total output would be so tremendous that most people would simply be dead, or never born. In a very real sense, specialization of production makes our very lives-- yours, mine, everyone we know, just about everyone now living -- possible.

(09-05-2011 02:28 PM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  I'm as skeptical of the profit motive and global capitalism as anyone here (that I know of).

Re the profit motive: one might as well be skeptical of gravity...
Re global capitalism: given the amorphousness of the phrase "global capitalism", I am skeptical of the claimed skepticism!

(09-05-2011 02:28 PM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  ...I don't think any widespread buy local movement would ever be enough to displace current manufacturing models. I think it will take the next technological revolution (i.e., agricultural revolution, industrial revolution).

One of the great benefits of those prior revolutions was the elimination of the ridiculous choke-hold of parochial guilds on the economy -- historic examples of "buy local".

I would never buy anything connected to food from China, including a tea kettle, because of the chance they made it from something toxic to save a penny.

I try, when possible, not to buy from China after a friend's dog was killed by the melamine dog food a few years back. I admit that I usually fail, though I occasionally find something manufactured in another Asian country.

(09-05-2011 03:02 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  More generally, if every locality consumed only what it produced itself, the result would be a such a contraction in total wealth as to be mind-boggling.

We're not anywhere close to that. We are, however, moving towards a situation where all manufacturing is consolidated in one place. And, that one place has a government whose interests aren't always aligned with ours. And, that one place already holds $1T in US debt.

I try as much as possible to buy goods from anywhere else. It's often possible but not always.

And this is a somewhat different issue, but I particularly avoid products with "American" in the title, or with US flag imagery on the label, that are made in China.

(09-05-2011 07:30 PM)Owl75 Wrote:  I would never buy anything connected to food from China, including a tea kettle, because of the chance they made it from something toxic to save a penny.

This answers the earlier question about "why". There are lots of reports about the quality of the stainless steel there being very poor and not actually food-grade as claimed (and if you check the reviews on e.g. Amazon, lots of people saying their kettles are rusting - not a good sign). The other reason is that it's been my observation that things made in China tend to fall apart, and I am one of those crazy "buy it for life" people. I do not want to replace my toaster every 3 - 4 years, I want to continue using the one I got from my grandmother that is 50 years old. When it dies, I doubt I'll find something as long-lived.

I also don't see it as sustainable, in the long run, to have people in the US buying everything from China. What will they buy from us? This is a serious question and claiming "oh but we have to let China make everything because how else will they raise living standards" is pretty disingenuous. So is implying that I want everything I use made in a 50 mile radius around my house - that is not what I am saying at all. I am happy to buy some, even many things from other countries if that is where they make the best product and for some reason it can't be made here. But the US spans an entire CONTINENT, there should be very little we can't make here. This isn't about consolidating for efficiency - this is about cheap labor and low interference.

I guess I'm curious about how those arguing with me see this playing out. Once all manufacturing is being done in China, what will America support itself with, exactly? How will we pay for Chinese goods? How will workers in America be better off, once your solution of "lower taxes/regulation" makes up for the enormous benefit of paying Chinese workers a fraction of their US counterparts? I am not being rhetorical, I am seriously asking because I hear this and I simply don't see it working.

(PS - I realize I am focusing exclusively on China, but consider it a stand-in for the handful of countries this applies to)

In 2001 the US Army modified their uniforms and switched to Black Berets as standard headwear for their "daily" non combat uniform. The Pentagon issued contracts for 150,000 berets with Chinese firms.

After loud protest, the Chinese contracts were nixed and re-issued to American companies.

Sometimes the notion of "lowest bidder wins" shouldn't be applied.

Emmie - when it comes to your toaster, etc., you're going to really struggle to find appliances that last as long as they used to. The appliances are built that way - planned obsolesence. Doesn't matter where it's made, it's just engineered that way so that the consumer needs to spend more frequently.

No need to build a fridge to last 30+ years, when you can get an expensive repair to fail in 10 to 15 years and make you more likely to want to buy a new one than repair the existing one.

Or at least, it certainly seems that way to me. Shoot, my mother-in-law has a fridge/freezer that's at least 30 years old (I think it's over 35), and my parents have one that is at least 25. Good luck finding a recent generation fridge (even a basic feature one) last that long.

(09-06-2011 09:42 AM)gsloth Wrote:  Emmie - when it comes to your toaster, etc., you're going to really struggle to find appliances that last as long as they used to. The appliances are built that way - planned obsolesence. Doesn't matter where it's made, it's just engineered that way so that the consumer needs to spend more frequently.

No need to build a fridge to last 30+ years, when you can get an expensive repair to fail in 10 to 15 years and make you more likely to want to buy a new one than repair the existing one.

Or at least, it certainly seems that way to me. Shoot, my mother-in-law has a fridge/freezer that's at least 30 years old (I think it's over 35), and my parents have one that is at least 25. Good luck finding a recent generation fridge (even a basic feature one) last that long.

Back in the '90s, my dad was a big proponent of the "disposable VCRs" he bought at Sam's Club. His theory was that they all break, so why spend money on one. I went the other direction, researched, spent some money on a nice one, and it worked through the rest of my VCR use (including a rooommate who used it as a DVR, recording and playing back 6 hours of TV (EACH DAY!). It is now in the cabinet where I can get it out whenever we have something that is on tape only. Admittedly, it's no 50 year toaster, but you can get some things that will last for a while if you try. (Or at least you could 18 years ago).

(09-06-2011 09:42 AM)gsloth Wrote:  Emmie - when it comes to your toaster, etc., you're going to really struggle to find appliances that last as long as they used to. The appliances are built that way - planned obsolesence. Doesn't matter where it's made, it's just engineered that way so that the consumer needs to spend more frequently.

No need to build a fridge to last 30+ years, when you can get an expensive repair to fail in 10 to 15 years and make you more likely to want to buy a new one than repair the existing one.

Or at least, it certainly seems that way to me. Shoot, my mother-in-law has a fridge/freezer that's at least 30 years old (I think it's over 35), and my parents have one that is at least 25. Good luck finding a recent generation fridge (even a basic feature one) last that long.

My Mother still has her 1972 Sears Kenmore "coppertone" side-by-side refrigerator freezer (manufactured by Whirlpool) in fine working order. While it is now living in the garage where it is the designated Beer and Soft Drink Refrigerator, its outlived two Sub Zeros.

The notion that everything is made in China, or that American manufacturing is dying off, is simply wrong. It's true that China's share of the global manufacturing output has exploded in recent years and that they will probably pass the US for number one on the list in the next couple of years (it's been predicted for the last couple but hasn't happened yet), it hasn't been at our expense. America's share has remained remarkably constant during China's rise. If you look at the value added numbers (which takes into account components that are manufactured here then shiped out for final assembly), we're in even better shape.

It was mentioned about the lack of sales of expensive US technology and goods to China. What people don't realize is the PRC is the biggest Patent and Copyright infringer on the Planet. You sell them high tech-they will try to copy it and undercut you. Pirate software is big biz in China. And the Chinese attempts to hack DoD contractors are numerous. What we don't sell to them..they steal.

(09-06-2011 09:22 AM)emmiesix Wrote:  

(09-05-2011 07:30 PM)Owl75 Wrote:  I would never buy anything connected to food from China, including a tea kettle, because of the chance they made it from something toxic to save a penny.

This answers the earlier question about "why". There are lots of reports about the quality of the stainless steel there being very poor and not actually food-grade as claimed (and if you check the reviews on e.g. Amazon, lots of people saying their kettles are rusting - not a good sign). The other reason is that it's been my observation that things made in China tend to fall apart, and I am one of those crazy "buy it for life" people. I do not want to replace my toaster every 3 - 4 years, I want to continue using the one I got from my grandmother that is 50 years old. When it dies, I doubt I'll find something as long-lived.

I also don't see it as sustainable, in the long run, to have people in the US buying everything from China. What will they buy from us? This is a serious question and claiming "oh but we have to let China make everything because how else will they raise living standards" is pretty disingenuous. So is implying that I want everything I use made in a 50 mile radius around my house - that is not what I am saying at all. I am happy to buy some, even many things from other countries if that is where they make the best product and for some reason it can't be made here.

But that is too stringent a test.
The question "Should Slobovia make widgets instead of Utopia?" does not require that widgets cannot be made in Utopia, or that Slobovia necessarily makes the best widgets. It is this: can Slobovia make widgets with less tradeoff in the production of other goods than Utopia can?

As an example: can apples be grown in Manhattan? Sure. They might even be the best apples in the world. But the resources devoted to growing apples in Manhattan would earn 1000 times more return if devoted to, say, housing a law office in the same location. So it makes every sense in the world for Manhattan to let someone else grow the apples, where there aren't other more valuable uses for the same resources.

The world economy is the size it is precisely because exactly these sorts of production movements have been going on for thousands of years. Reversing this process would require a very severe contraction.

Now, if the criticisms are with China specifically (as many appear to be -- principally stemming from China's lack of law), that's a somewhat different matter. But the general idea that outsourcing of production to other countries is bad is just not right.

P J O'Rourke explains the Law of Comparative Advantage:

http://www.espen.com/archives/2004/11/ri...plain.html