Bull...

My comment was meant slightly tongue-in-cheek. I agree citizenship is not trivial... but I don't want the political theater, nor Biden in office... so yes... His birth certificate as a document is only important to me in terms of stiffening up the paper trail for the future.

It was more of a, "why are we talking about it?? Because he has a long history of lies, half-truths and questionable honesty." A VERY long way from what we were promised. The left wants to paint this as right-wing extremism/racism... but LOTS of people who voted for him did so expecting honesty at the very least. He apparently can't even be fully honest about something as simple as a birth certificate or college transcripts. Those items aren't important in terms of my life... but they ARE important in terms of trusting my President to tell me the truth and follow the law.

The Certificate of Live Birth he released was proven legimitate by two independent bodies in factcheck and politifact.

If this did not truly represent his actual Birth Certificate, I have yet to hear one credible reason why everyone in the Hawaii Health Department, including Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino, and former Republican Governor Linda Lingle would participate in this fraud.

C'mon...it took all of about 5 minutes for everyone in the state offices of Ohio to know every detail of the life of Joe "not a" Plumber.

But I agree...the more the far right keeps this in the media...the more of a pass Obama gets on real criticism for his policies and practices.

(03-30-2011 01:24 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The Certificate of Live Birth he released was proven legimitate by two independent bodies in factcheck and politifact.

If this did not truly represent his actual Birth Certificate, I have yet to hear one credible reason why everyone in the Hawaii Health Department, including Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino, and former Republican Governor Linda Lingle would participate in this fraud.

C'mon...it took all of about 5 minutes for everyone in the state offices of Ohio to know every detail of the life of Joe "not a" Plumber.

But I agree...the more the far right keeps this in the media...the more of a pass Obama gets on real criticism for his policies and practices.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never questioned the veracity of the certificate of live birth. I have merely stated the absolute fact that it is NOT a birth certificate.

The certificate of live birth was originally intended as a "proxy" for native Islanders, many of whom were born before Hawaii was a state, or were born in remote parts of the island NOT at a hospital. Imagine giving birth at home, and then registering the birth of your child at the hospital a week later. Back in the 50's and 60's, nobody really questioned you when you said your child was born August 28th in Makalapa Bay... when it just as easily could have been august 27th or 29th in Hanapui. I know this because my mother was born on a US Navy base hospital before Hawaii was a state... and I lived there when I was little. She was given a Birth certificate from the base hospital, and a certificate of live birth from the state many years later. If you are adopted, or have a name change or whatever, you can apply to the state for an amended Certificate of Live Birth.

As to why some people would be "complicit"... You'd have to ask them. The FACT is that without a HIPPA, few if any of those people have seen the actual document in question. You can't just go request someone elses birth certificate. Lingle specifically sealed the document, so I don't know why you're claiming she has somehow certified it.

Personally, I suspect that his birth certificate shows something innocuous but for some reason embarassing like a different spelling or name for him or his father. Anyone viewing the document would only LEGALLY be allowed to say, I've seen the document... it is legitimate... but not divulge details without permission... which they obviously don't have.

I'd rather ask why the President isn't being forthcoming.

(03-29-2011 01:58 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama's application for SS was sent in after 1972. He was born August 4, 1961, he was 11 yrs old in 1972. Children did not apply for their SS card until 17 or 18 when they complied with Selective Service.

I've had my Social Security card since I was 8 years old. I think we got them to open a bank account. I'm just a few years younger than Obama, but it's the same time range.

(03-30-2011 05:07 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 01:58 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama's application for SS was sent in after 1972. He was born August 4, 1961, he was 11 yrs old in 1972. Children did not apply for their SS card until 17 or 18 when they complied with Selective Service.

I've had my Social Security card since I was 8 years old. I think we got them to open a bank account. I'm just a few years younger than Obama, but it's the same time range.

Back then you did not need a SS card to open a bank account.

(03-30-2011 09:18 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 05:07 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 01:58 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama's application for SS was sent in after 1972. He was born August 4, 1961, he was 11 yrs old in 1972. Children did not apply for their SS card until 17 or 18 when they complied with Selective Service.

I've had my Social Security card since I was 8 years old. I think we got them to open a bank account. I'm just a few years younger than Obama, but it's the same time range.

Back then you did not need a SS card to open a bank account.

You sound like my kids. Back then, SSN's were only 5 numbers

You did if it paid interest... iirc. I've had mine since LONG before I turned 12 (can't remember, but I signed a nick-name I haven't used since at least then)

My kids have had them since birth

(03-30-2011 09:18 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 05:07 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 01:58 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama's application for SS was sent in after 1972. He was born August 4, 1961, he was 11 yrs old in 1972. Children did not apply for their SS card until 17 or 18 when they complied with Selective Service.

I've had my Social Security card since I was 8 years old. I think we got them to open a bank account. I'm just a few years younger than Obama, but it's the same time range.

Back then you did not need a SS card to open a bank account.

I didn't get mine until I was a teenager.

(03-30-2011 01:24 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The Certificate of Live Birth he released was proven legimitate by two independent bodies in factcheck and politifact.

If this did not truly represent his actual Birth Certificate, I have yet to hear one credible reason why everyone in the Hawaii Health Department, including Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino, and former Republican Governor Linda Lingle would participate in this fraud.

C'mon...it took all of about 5 minutes for everyone in the state offices of Ohio to know every detail of the life of Joe "not a" Plumber.

But I agree...the more the far right keeps this in the media...the more of a pass Obama gets on real criticism for his policies and practices.

BIngo!!!!....+1:ncaabbs:

(03-30-2011 09:18 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 05:07 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 01:58 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama's application for SS was sent in after 1972. He was born August 4, 1961, he was 11 yrs old in 1972. Children did not apply for their SS card until 17 or 18 when they complied with Selective Service.

I've had my Social Security card since I was 8 years old. I think we got them to open a bank account. I'm just a few years younger than Obama, but it's the same time range.

Back then you did not need a SS card to open a bank account.

To be honest, I don't know why I had the SS card, but I know I had it. There wasn't any reason that I would've needed it as far as I know.

(03-30-2011 09:43 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 09:18 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 05:07 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 01:58 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama's application for SS was sent in after 1972. He was born August 4, 1961, he was 11 yrs old in 1972. Children did not apply for their SS card until 17 or 18 when they complied with Selective Service.

I've had my Social Security card since I was 8 years old. I think we got them to open a bank account. I'm just a few years younger than Obama, but it's the same time range.

Back then you did not need a SS card to open a bank account.

You sound like my kids. Back then, SSN's were only 5 numbers

You did if it paid interest... iirc. I've had mine since LONG before I turned 12 (can't remember, but I signed a nick-name I haven't used since at least then)

My kids have had them since birth

I still have the SS card with my 8-10 year old signature on it. We may have had it long before then. You're between age and Obama's ... the only time I moved in that time, it was about 4 blocks to a bigger house.

edit: our kids have also had them since birth.

Nice "debate" on the subject

http://www.sandiego.com/news/opinion-fea...te-debate#

Well, you need to have a social security number to be claimed as a dependent on a tax return so you pretty much have to apply for it at birth now.

Not sure off the top of my head as to how long it was required to be on the return to get the claim. At least since electronic filing started. I'll have to look into that tomorrow.

Personally, I got mine sometime as an early teen.

Again, the most plausible explanation for Obama is that he mailed in his application to a SSA office in Connecticut when he was not living in the US.

(03-30-2011 04:51 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 01:24 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The Certificate of Live Birth he released was proven legimitate by two independent bodies in factcheck and politifact.

If this did not truly represent his actual Birth Certificate, I have yet to hear one credible reason why everyone in the Hawaii Health Department, including Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino, and former Republican Governor Linda Lingle would participate in this fraud.

C'mon...it took all of about 5 minutes for everyone in the state offices of Ohio to know every detail of the life of Joe "not a" Plumber.

But I agree...the more the far right keeps this in the media...the more of a pass Obama gets on real criticism for his policies and practices.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never questioned the veracity of the certificate of live birth. I have merely stated the absolute fact that it is NOT a birth certificate.

The certificate of live birth was originally intended as a "proxy" for native Islanders, many of whom were born before Hawaii was a state, or were born in remote parts of the island NOT at a hospital. Imagine giving birth at home, and then registering the birth of your child at the hospital a week later. Back in the 50's and 60's, nobody really questioned you when you said your child was born August 28th in Makalapa Bay... when it just as easily could have been august 27th or 29th in Hanapui. I know this because my mother was born on a US Navy base hospital before Hawaii was a state... and I lived there when I was little. She was given a Birth certificate from the base hospital, and a certificate of live birth from the state many years later. If you are adopted, or have a name change or whatever, you can apply to the state for an amended Certificate of Live Birth.

As to why some people would be "complicit"... You'd have to ask them. The FACT is that without a HIPPA, few if any of those people have seen the actual document in question. You can't just go request someone elses birth certificate. Lingle specifically sealed the document, so I don't know why you're claiming she has somehow certified it.

Personally, I suspect that his birth certificate shows something innocuous but for some reason embarassing like a different spelling or name for him or his father. Anyone viewing the document would only LEGALLY be allowed to say, I've seen the document... it is legitimate... but not divulge details without permission... which they obviously don't have.

I'd rather ask why the President isn't being forthcoming.

I have nearly the exact same certificate of live birth and I live in Ohio...so not sure about the native thing.

It was my understanding that this certificate was meant to be used as proof of birth in lieu of bringing out that more fragile document with the foot prints and all on it.

Regardless, the certificate of live birth IS A LEGAL DOCUMENT to prove birth and it clearly says he was born in Hawaii...but by all means keep doubting it...LOL

The legality of the certificate is spelled out at the bottom.

(03-31-2011 08:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  Nice "debate" on the subject

http://www.sandiego.com/news/opinion-fea...te-debate#

Of the two (William Lolli and Dick Ellis) it is obvious who has resorted to marginalization and attacking, (same at the posters here) and who tries to drill down to the essence of the questions.

There are no questions.. that's his point. There's nothing to drill down, it's a fake controversy. It's comic relief, why would he take birthers seriously? They're a joke and should be treated as such.

Of course.. for the Dems it's best to mention them as often as possible as a serious part of the right wing and not the ridiculous subset that they are. Just as any right winger would be better off telling people all liberals are tree hugging hippies.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama fulfills the "natural born citizen" requirement.

Given that, there is an extraordinary amount of secrecy around basic facts, particularly from someone who has promised so much transparency. Things like his college transcripts and theses concern me far more than his birth certificate. Does anyone actually believe that, for example, George W. Bush, would have been able to cloak all his records in secrecy without being called in to account?

I guess I'm a "transcripter." I really think Obama is taking advantage of the ability to portray the birthers as nuts to hide the fact that this "transparent" president has been anything but.

People who have nothing to hide don't try to hide it. I just don't think the birth certificate is what he wants to hide.

(03-31-2011 02:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I guess I'm a "transcripter." I really think Obama is taking advantage of the ability to portray the birthers as nuts to hide the fact that this "transparent" president has been anything but.

I guess that makes me a "stoner". I want to find his tombstone so we can put his name on it before things get too far...

(03-31-2011 12:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I have nearly the exact same certificate of live birth and I live in Ohio...so not sure about the native thing.

Well I am sure. I lived there just after that time, and my mother was born there just before that time. Your "doubts" have no bearing in fact. As to what it "looks" like... of COURSE it LOOKS like it, because as I said, it is an official proxy. The KEY difference is that there is no place for the actual location of birth... which I suspect YOUR certificate shows. Merely the city. My passport shows the city of my birth, but my birth certificate shows the hospital... so does my mothers... Issued in Hawaii.

As I said, my questions are not about the location of his birth, but of what he is hiding on the certificate that is different from this. The State's website clearly shows a variety of circumstances under which a replacement/corrected certificate can be issued... and I suspect one of these is what happened.

Quote:It was my understanding that this certificate was meant to be used as proof of birth in lieu of bringing out that more fragile document with the foot prints and all on it.

That's laughable. What is it, the Mona Lisa?? Does yours have footprints on it? Mine doesn't, neither does Trumps. They scanned the actual document into a computer decades ago. You understand incorrectly.

Quote:Regardless, the certificate of live birth IS A LEGAL DOCUMENT to prove birth and it clearly says he was born in Hawaii...but by all means keep doubting it...LOL

The legality of the certificate is spelled out at the bottom.

First, I never said he wasn't. As far as I'm concerned, the "citizenshiP" issue has long since been dead, if it EVER was one. If you want to have that argument with someone, pick someone else.

Second, You should look up the word prima facia and its usage in the law before trying to use it in a legal sense. Prima Facia evidence is not irrefutable... it is merely accepted UNLESS refuted. Your Passport is ALSO Prima Facia evidence of birth and citizenship... but if you falsified your birth record, then having a passport doesn't change the law and make you a citizen. There's a HUGE business in people getting legal documents from illegal ones. I'm not in any way accusing Obama of this... I'm merely explaining what Prima Facia evidence is

I don't really CARE where he was born... I care that he's hiding such trivial things... that is something NONE of you will address... you keep trying to say "but this is just as good"... "but he's answered that"... BS...
The ONLY way to answer it is to produce the document... because the actual document or a certified copy of it is the only IRREFUTABLE proof... and it obviously exists so it should be no problem. A guy with a camera phone could produce it. Sure, conspiracy theorists will question it, but they already do.

People like me just want the "transparent government" we were promised... and this and his transcripts... which obviously reflect good scores... should be easy instead of difficult.

I don't like Obama's policies, but I'd feel better about it if I wasn't constantly being convinced that the reality is much worse than what it appears to be.

(04-02-2011 05:51 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

Translation: I really do not care one way or the other about this issue and know that it is a moot point now.

(03-30-2011 11:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-30-2011 01:24 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The Certificate of Live Birth he released was proven legimitate by two independent bodies in factcheck and politifact.

If this did not truly represent his actual Birth Certificate, I have yet to hear one credible reason why everyone in the Hawaii Health Department, including Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino, and former Republican Governor Linda Lingle would participate in this fraud.

C'mon...it took all of about 5 minutes for everyone in the state offices of Ohio to know every detail of the life of Joe "not a" Plumber.

But I agree...the more the far right keeps this in the media...the more of a pass Obama gets on real criticism for his policies and practices.

BIngo!!!!....+1:ncaabbs:

The birthers truly are the conspiracy theorists of today. They're just as wacky as the people who say we faked the moon landing. But after all these years, their shtick has gotten old. If Trump wants to latch on to this issue, he will destroy any credibility he might have had.