Quote:Coach knight has done and said a lot of crazy stuff and as long as IU was a top 10 team they all laughed and let knight be knight. Only when his teams were no longer a powerhouse then they started to crack down. Make no mistake about it, the fanbase got rid of knight because they were declining. Lets not revise history. IU fans show up but they have higher expectations. If we were like IU, Mick would be gone already.

It is true that Bobby stayed in his position longer than he should have, partly because he was winning games and making money for the Uni.

Coach Knight had friends in the University and among the wealthy donors, and they used their influence to help him remain coach,though some eventually moved on, or felt they could no longer back him.

In the end, Knight was fired for behavior that could not be overlooked. Remember the poor secretary? That was just one of a number of off-the-court issues Knight created for himself.

Sound familiar?

(11-17-2010 03:39 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 11:31 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 11:17 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 09:45 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  It's easy to blame the fans and yea i wish more fans went to games. (I go to about 10 home games a year since i graduated after attending nearly every game in my four years at UC. I'll be there Saturday) BUT the fact is the Bearcat faithful showed up throughout Huggins career at UC, they will support a program that shows a commitment to success. I don't know many programs that would draw large support if they:

1. Fired a coach who was incredibly successful and loved by pretty much the entire fan base.
2. Went from 13 straight NCAA tournament bids, to 5 straight years without it. (3 of which did not even have an NIT bid)
3. That had an administration that seemed to show no concern over this
4. Absolutely faded down the stretch in conference play the last 3 seasons (though did find a way to win a couple in the Big East tournament last year)

It's easy to blame the fans, but the attendance issues right now are a direct result of decisions made by the people in charge of University of Cincinnati athletics. That simple.

IU fans are still supporting their team. After the ouster of an iconic coach, bad hire, and losing that equals UC's. Some programs support the home team and others do not. UC falls into the others do not category. By the way, in Huggs last few years the attendance was already on the decline.

IU's administration has shown a commitment to winning. They fired Knight after giving him a chance there was another incident... not the case with Huggs. Also they hired Davis, when he was not working out they moved on...the Sampson hire proved bad, but they went out and got a proven winner in Tom Crean. The IU administration has shown far more commitment to fielding a successful basketball program after Knight than the UC administration has after Huggins and there was not near the bad blood over the Bob Knight dismissal as there was over the Bob Huggins dismissal. IU's fans have rewarded the administrations efforts by continuing to support the program.

Another intelligent post.

Astounds me that people actually think we're supposed to support this crap product or we're "not fans". BS.

1. Poor economy/people struggling financially
2. Crappy product
3. Time constraints - father of 2 teenagers/working 2 jobs

good lord chatter...go do some tai chi and relax dude

(11-17-2010 10:43 PM)OneUChoopsfan Wrote:  

Quote:Coach knight has done and said a lot of crazy stuff and as long as IU was a top 10 team they all laughed and let knight be knight. Only when his teams were no longer a powerhouse then they started to crack down. Make no mistake about it, the fanbase got rid of knight because they were declining. Lets not revise history. IU fans show up but they have higher expectations. If we were like IU, Mick would be gone already.

It is true that Bobby stayed in his position longer than he should have, partly because he was winning games and making money for the Uni.

Coach Knight had friends in the University and among the wealthy donors, and they used their influence to help him remain coach,though some eventually moved on, or felt they could no longer back him.

In the end, Knight was fired for behavior that could not be overlooked. Remember the poor secretary? That was just one of a number of off-the-court issues Knight created for himself.

Sound familiar?

He threw chairs on the court, cursed out just everyone, made that wonderful comment about rape victims, not to mention all the alleged abuse of players. I find it ironic that things could no longer be overlooked once he stopped winning big ten titles and going to the final four on a regular basis.

It's no different then UK. They'll finally have enough of cals cheating once the wins start to fade.

(11-17-2010 10:30 PM)OneUChoopsfan Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 02:45 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 02:13 PM)BearcatOtto Wrote:  A city school.
Limited market area.
In a professional market.
Local market is shared with OSU, UK, XU & Miami.
Compared to enrollment, relatively small on-campus student population


You just described the Miami Hurricanes.

They are down a bit now but still have a pretty stout program.

This also describes Pitt's situation. Doesn't seem to affect them either.

Pittsburgh metro has a little over 200,000 more residents than Cincinnati.

Pittsburgh is a vibrant town with excellent retaurants, a great bar scene, and preserved historical neighborhoods, despite having "0" streetcars or trolleys. Imagine that.

U Pitt is a private institution.
They have no area college basketball competitors.
Western PA abhors eastern PA.
Professional sports abound, including hockey.
Pitt has an enrollment of 28,000 students, about 13,000 less than UC, plus a much larger post grad percentage (came from another school and not as interested in athletics)

Pitt is the presently rated #5 in the Country, and is expected to challange for the Big East Championship.

Home court is the Peterson Events Center which seats 12,504.

10/11 home attendance figures:
11/8/10 Rhode Island 9,256
11/10/10 UIC 9,148
11/13/10 UNF 10,052

They're #5 & the place isn't filled.

Apathy abounds in basketball land.

Not sure what streetcars have to do with this topic?

Pitt has more and better pro franchises than Cincy. As you have stated they seem to have a more vibrant array of entertainment options. They are smaller in size than UC in number students. Penn State has a presence in the Pitt area. Pitt is an urban univ. However, they are able to remain competitive/have high level support despite the same excuses presented for UC's inability to sustain success.

Either step up and conquer adversity of have it define you. Plain and simple.

B, if people didn't find UC's running out to a 40-21 halftime lead entertaining, there's something seriously wrong. Sure the 2nd half had its share of warts, but, I ask the question: When does the fans' exodus become less about a "declining program", and more about justifying resentment for Cronin, UC, whomever?

It's the first game, and last season (and the one before that) didn't end well. So, I partially understand some people's angst. It takes a bit of time to wash down the poor taste. But, I'm talking about justifying ONE-THIRD-FREAKING CAPACITY!! I mean, that's extreme! Rath's right - UC's fans as a whole (but certainly not those who show) deserve a lot less than what they're getting.

If UC hits a winning streak into January, even if an easy schedule, and the fans still aren't coming, I don't want to hear continued justification for this crappy of a crowd.

IU is the most logical comparison, but it is difficult to compare the two programs. Indiana first off, is a basketball state, not a football state like Ohio is. Next to the Colts, IU basketball is the biggest draw in the state of Indiana- yes even bigger than the Pacers. Not to mention the only draw in Bloomington. They have no competition throughout the entire state. Even though Purdue has emerged and Butler have emerged in basketball- neither has the statewide following that IU does. ND football is big too, but that is more of a national following than state following- because ND draw students from all over the country and also sends it's alums all over the country, much more than IU does.

UC on the other had, in its city alone, has two professional sports teams to compete with. They do not have a statewide following either. Although there are fans in other cities, the entire city of Columbus and Cleveland are not diehard UC fans...nor is a smaller city like Dayton. There are pro sports teams in Columbus and Cleveland, OSU, UD, etc. Basically, they do not have the entire state behind them like IU does. Even when IU was terrible the past few years, they were still getting over 7,000 STUDENTS alone at the games. Some games, UC is lucky to get 100. UC is a commuter school and it is extremely difficult to draw a reasonable parallel between the two colleges.

(11-18-2010 10:37 AM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  B, if people didn't find UC's running out to a 40-21 halftime lead entertaining, there's something seriously wrong. Sure the 2nd half had its share of warts, but, I ask the question: When does the fans' exodus become less about a "declining program", and more about justifying resentment for Cronin, UC, whomever?

It's the first game, and last season (and the one before that) didn't end well. So, I partially understand some people's angst. It takes a bit of time to wash down the poor taste. But, I'm talking about justifying ONE-THIRD-FREAKING CAPACITY!! I mean, that's extreme! Rath's right - UC's fans as a whole (but certainly not those who show) deserve a lot less than what they're getting.

If UC hits a winning streak into January, even if an easy schedule, and the fans still aren't coming, I don't want to hear continued justification for this crappy of a crowd.

Maybe, just maybe........Cronin has lost the fanbase?

Boring style of play.
Complete collapses at the end of the last 2 seasons.
Zero improvement of his team from November to March every year.
Zero improvement of individual players from November to March.
Failure to get to the Big Dance.
Makes excuses continually.
Makes promises and doesn't deliver.
Talks a big game and doesn't deliver.

Maybe, many of the fans are ready for Change?

Same old $hit by the same couple people...

Ha! Love that we have some guys in this thread who never bought tickets anyways talking about why the attendance is low. Outstanding! Guessing if you were not buying them back in the halcyon C-USA days, its a moot topic now, huh?

(11-18-2010 11:24 AM)DP3113 Wrote:  IU is the most logical comparison, but it is difficult to compare the two programs. Indiana first off, is a basketball state, not a football state like Ohio is. Next to the Colts, IU basketball is the biggest draw in the state of Indiana- yes even bigger than the Pacers. Not to mention the only draw in Bloomington. They have no competition throughout the entire state. Even though Purdue has emerged and Butler have emerged in basketball- neither has the statewide following that IU does. ND football is big too, but that is more of a national following than state following- because ND draw students from all over the country and also sends it's alums all over the country, much more than IU does.

UC on the other had, in its city alone, has two professional sports teams to compete with. They do not have a statewide following either. Although there are fans in other cities, the entire city of Columbus and Cleveland are not diehard UC fans...nor is a smaller city like Dayton. There are pro sports teams in Columbus and Cleveland, OSU, UD, etc. Basically, they do not have the entire state behind them like IU does. Even when IU was terrible the past few years, they were still getting over 7,000 STUDENTS alone at the games. Some games, UC is lucky to get 100. UC is a commuter school and it is extremely difficult to draw a reasonable parallel between the two colleges.

DP, you make some good points. IU has a pretty big following in IN. I would say Purdue and ND does provide some competition.

I would say though, UC is more regional than you think. Over 100,000 alums living in the local area. The number does not include those in your previously mentioned cities. This does not include a current student body of a little over 40k. UC is no longer a commuter school and has ceased to be one for some time now.

(11-18-2010 10:37 AM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  UC's fans as a whole (but certainly not those who show) deserve a lot less than what they're getting.

Interesting to see the 'anger' being thrown at Coach Jones for his season so far. A lot from those who had invested in the hype and price increases given them for last year's success now are angry that the season has not gone well.

The parallel of the two programs is interesting. Those who invested emotionally and financially in support of the success of the basketball program were angry at the university's decision to make a coach change. In football, it was the coach who made the change but the result is the same: a new guy who hasn't achieved (yet) the recent prominence and success of the predecessor.

The decline is purely based on on-the-court/field record. If the football team has three or four years of non-bowl game years, you will see the same or worse drop in attendance. It is not a function of what the fans deserve, but of the value people see in the attending the games.

UC basketball got to be a be-seen place to be. When Wake Forest basketball under Prosser came to the Shoe, it was a veritable whos-who of people in attendance.

Last year's football success had lots of celebs show up and it was the place to be.

Those who say you get what you deserve are correct. But it is a 2-way street: if the sports event puts out a less than top-notch product, they 'deserve' less than top-notch attendance. It's not a 'fault' game, it is simply a measure of the status or success of a team.

It would seem that those who DO show up now deserve more than what they are getting. Why do people get angry? Maybe they feel mislead into giving more support and receiving less satisfaction. Whose 'fault' is that?

It's a fair enough point Brent. Mick's hype/excuse cycle has worn me out quite a bit too, same with Jones. Realizing people are still pissed from last year, I'll give it until next month before I comment again.

Still, like I said, let the axe fall on Mick, and lots of luck finding a competent replacement that wants to coach in front of 4000. And finally, I STILL have seen no counterpoint that justifies less attendence than DePaul's games.

Quote:B, if people didn't find UC's running out to a 40-21 halftime lead entertaining, there's something seriously wrong. Sure the 2nd half had its share of warts, but, I ask the question: When does the fans' exodus become less about a "declining program", and more about justifying resentment for Cronin, UC, whomever?

I think that's it, people are not happy with the program--and mick. You guys get upset everytime someone mentions micks name on this board, if you read some of the post you might not be surprised by the attendance. And despite what some may think, you don't have to sit in an arena to see the writing.

Quote:It's the first game, and last season (and the one before that) didn't end well. So, I partially understand some people's angst. It takes a bit of time to wash down the poor taste.

There's your answer.

Quote:But, I'm talking about justifying ONE-THIRD-FREAKING CAPACITY!! I mean, that's extreme!

Then maybe uc needs a smaller arena. They are what they are. At least we don't play in the carrier dome.

Cincy has pro teams, xu, gambling, so people have options for their disposable income. make it worth their wild and not just cry because no one is going to see a team that don't play hard coached by a guy whom they want fired. That's what it is until proven otherwise.

Quote:Rath's right - UC's fans as a whole (but certainly not those who show) deserve a lot less than what they're getting.

BJ,
UC was blowing leads way back when people attended the games.

Maybe UC is getting what they deserve.

Quote:If UC hits a winning streak into January, even if an easy schedule, and the fans still aren't coming, I don't want to hear continued justification for this crappy of a crowd.

and if uc fails to make the tourney , even with a wea ker Big east, I don't want to hear continued justification for this crappy coaching.

Instead of all this preemptive deflection of blame away from you know who. why not try to find out why people aren't coming and work from there? That is if you really give a damn about people showing up.

This is just me but if I'm getting water on my living room floor, I don't blame the rain, I blame the damn hole in my roof.

(11-18-2010 12:39 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Still, like I said, let the axe fall on Mick, and lots of luck finding a competent replacement that wants to coach in front of 4000. And finally, I STILL have seen no counterpoint that justifies less attendence than DePaul's games.

If the axe falls on mick then he was not competent.

Take you choice what do you want, a big crowd or mick? because as of now it don't appear you can have both. So some of you who worship mick and use attendance as the universal excuse for everything are gonna have to make a decision.

As for your counterpoint, how about depaul has a new coach that has breath some new life into the fanbase.

Like I've said before many,many times a new coach would breath new life into our program. Would we be better? I don't know, but At least when the guy says "we're going to play hard and bring back the bearcat toughness" I could believe it for a while. When the players say they are working harder then they ever did. That type of stuff fires up the fans. Right now, mick is just blah, blah, blah to many folks

Did UC even have an intrasquad scrimmage this year? that's usually on everyone's mental calender.

It took 5 years to get down to 4,000, it's gonna take time to go back up.

BJ - from a percentage standpoint UC blew away Depaul's attendance.

Depaul home attendance was 0.09% of the population of metro Chicago (7,875,800).

UC home attendance was 0.22% of the population of metro Cincinnati (1,802,400).

Ergo UC >2X Depaul percentage, so does that help?

I'll bet there are a lot more UC alumni than DePaul alumni if you want to use that analogy.

And no one said anything about worshipping Mick.

(11-18-2010 02:39 PM)THE BearcatBrent Wrote:  BJ - from a percentage standpoint UC blew away Depaul's attendance.

Depaul home attendance was 0.09% of the population of metro Chicago (7,875,800).

UC home attendance was 0.22% of the population of metro Cincinnati (1,802,400).

Ergo UC >2X Depaul percentage, so does that help?

also, I just check Depauls first game attendance against the always powerful chicago state


ready for it?


3,501

after blowing them out their attendance doubled.

funny how that works everywhere in the world except UC where attendance draws victories

Despite the attendance, environment, and facility issues, I would bet there are plenty of coaches, even good ones, that would love to coach a Big East basketball team - especially if they were to make the kind of money Mick is making.

(11-18-2010 03:02 PM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Despite the attendance, environment, and facility issues, I would bet there are plenty of coaches, even good ones, that would love to coach a Big East basketball team - especially if they were to make the kind of money Mick is making.

I'm sure Karl Hobbs would still answer the phone... at least I think so.

A coaching change would only hurt attendance, at least immediately. The average fan wouldn't be overly excited by the hiring of a MAC coach that they've never heard of.

(11-18-2010 03:57 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  A coaching change would only hurt attendance, at least immediately. The average fan wouldn't be overly excited by the hiring of a MAC coach that they've never heard of.

No way.

A new coach would bring a sense of renewed hope.

Whoever they hire will probably be coming off an NCAA birth and a solid w-l record. Won't pack the house but it would be an improvement and a buzz.

I mean tell me of anything new coming to a basketball team that did not spark any excitement?

I'll go out on a limb and say the attendance for this saturday afternoongame will draw much better then a monday night game.

Of course rath and his god complex will assume the increase is solely because of him.