(11-17-2010 05:00 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 04:36 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 04:19 PM)apoe Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 03:56 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Some of you have good points about time/budgetary constraints, so I'll lay off. But, seriously, you guys are justifying 4083??

Really, that's half a MAC CROWD!!

Sh!tcan Mick all you want, but no coach worth a damn is ever going to walk into in a situation like it is now.

If/when they replace Mick I think the next coach will sober up people pretty quickly on where the program is really at. Bad arena, no fan base, and one of the smallest budgets in the toughest league in the country. That is no recipe for success.

In other words, it's only going to get worse.

Thanks for the update.

Well Votto, I think what we are getting at is UC seems to be a mid-major at best. This is what I took away from the discussion. Support seems to be rare, funding virtually non-existent, community would rather support bad pro teams, not a coaching destination, and the die-hards are a very small group. It doesn't have to be this way, however this is reality. The fanbase/alums need to face adversity or have adversity define them.

Reds rebuilt their farm system, organization, major league roster = won NL Central pennant. Attendance increased 300,000 this year, and the big boost in attendance will probably be felt in season ticket sales prior to next season.

Bearcats won in football under Brian Kelly and the stadium filled up and UC football interest had never been higher.

Bengals go to playoffs = season sellout and probable boost in season ticket sales the next season.

Xavier goes to 6 NCAA Tournaments = sold out Cintas Center yearly for the most part.

Bearcat Basketball when Huggins was here = good attendance and fan interest

Pretty simple to see that winning cures everything. No sense in whining when we suck. This city has proven that if you win, they will come. UC Administration needs to find a b-ball coach who can get it done, and those struggling with time and money will still make time for the Bearcats.

(11-17-2010 04:36 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  In other words, it's only going to get worse.

Thanks for the update.

It seems highly likely - in both football and basketball. Money is the root of all evil and the nutrient that produces growth. Without enough money, we will have a great deal of trouble competing with the top schools in football or basketball.

If UC wins enough (Huggs era) fan support is good to go. Yeah there will be some empty seats but not many.
Related to Head Coaches, every big time big name Head Coach was either an assistant or a successful low-mid major
head coach prior to being referred to as Big Time Head Coach. The majority of low-mid major head coaches and hot shot
assistant coaches in the Big East, Big Ten, ACC etc., would jump at the opportunity to become the Head Coach at UC.

(11-17-2010 05:30 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 05:00 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 04:36 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 04:19 PM)apoe Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 03:56 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Some of you have good points about time/budgetary constraints, so I'll lay off. But, seriously, you guys are justifying 4083??

Really, that's half a MAC CROWD!!

Sh!tcan Mick all you want, but no coach worth a damn is ever going to walk into in a situation like it is now.

If/when they replace Mick I think the next coach will sober up people pretty quickly on where the program is really at. Bad arena, no fan base, and one of the smallest budgets in the toughest league in the country. That is no recipe for success.

In other words, it's only going to get worse.

Thanks for the update.

Well Votto, I think what we are getting at is UC seems to be a mid-major at best. This is what I took away from the discussion. Support seems to be rare, funding virtually non-existent, community would rather support bad pro teams, not a coaching destination, and the die-hards are a very small group. It doesn't have to be this way, however this is reality. The fanbase/alums need to face adversity or have adversity define them.

Reds rebuilt their farm system, organization, major league roster = won NL Central pennant. Attendance increased 300,000 this year, and the big boost in attendance will probably be felt in season ticket sales prior to next season.

Bearcats won in football under Brian Kelly and the stadium filled up and UC football interest had never been higher.

Bengals go to playoffs = season sellout and probable boost in season ticket sales the next season.

Xavier goes to 6 NCAA Tournaments = sold out Cintas Center yearly for the most part.

Bearcat Basketball when Huggins was here = good attendance and fan interest

Pretty simple to see that winning cures everything. No sense in whining when we suck. This city has proven that if you win, they will come. UC Administration needs to find a b-ball coach who can get it done, and those struggling with time and money will still make time for the Bearcats.

Throw out the pro comparisons. Completely different funding/economic situation as compared to college sports.

Bungles did not sell out last year, despite winning, without corp buying up hundreds/thousands tickets a couple days prior to the game. Same corp have not done this for UC.

Cintas had alot of empty seats for most games last year. Last couple of years their non-conf slate did not sell out.

UC BBall attendance, during Huggs, was on the declined his few years, despite HOF coach/high level winning.

No one is whining. Just stating observations as they present themselves. I will give you this; the Sugar Bowl fan support was out of this world amazing! Around/over 30,000 UC fans was pretty impressive. Now if we can translate that into an everyday occurrence.

(11-17-2010 05:54 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 05:30 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 05:00 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 04:36 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 04:19 PM)apoe Wrote:  If/when they replace Mick I think the next coach will sober up people pretty quickly on where the program is really at. Bad arena, no fan base, and one of the smallest budgets in the toughest league in the country. That is no recipe for success.

In other words, it's only going to get worse.

Thanks for the update.

Well Votto, I think what we are getting at is UC seems to be a mid-major at best. This is what I took away from the discussion. Support seems to be rare, funding virtually non-existent, community would rather support bad pro teams, not a coaching destination, and the die-hards are a very small group. It doesn't have to be this way, however this is reality. The fanbase/alums need to face adversity or have adversity define them.

Reds rebuilt their farm system, organization, major league roster = won NL Central pennant. Attendance increased 300,000 this year, and the big boost in attendance will probably be felt in season ticket sales prior to next season.

Bearcats won in football under Brian Kelly and the stadium filled up and UC football interest had never been higher.

Bengals go to playoffs = season sellout and probable boost in season ticket sales the next season.

Xavier goes to 6 NCAA Tournaments = sold out Cintas Center yearly for the most part.

Bearcat Basketball when Huggins was here = good attendance and fan interest

Pretty simple to see that winning cures everything. No sense in whining when we suck. This city has proven that if you win, they will come. UC Administration needs to find a b-ball coach who can get it done, and those struggling with time and money will still make time for the Bearcats.

Throw out the pro comparisons. Completely different funding/economic situation as compared to college sports.

Bungles did not sell out last year, despite winning, without corp buying up hundreds/thousands tickets a couple days prior to the game. Same corp have not done this for UC.

Cintas had alot of empty seats for most games last year. Last couple of years their non-conf slate did not sell out.

UC BBall attendance, during Huggs, was on the declined his few years, despite HOF coach/high level winning.

No one is whining. Just stating observations as they present themselves. I will give you this; the Sugar Bowl fan support was out of this world amazing! Around/over 30,000 UC fans was pretty impressive. Now if we can translate that into an everyday occurrence.

Even though you're wrong. We'll just agree to disagree.

I submit that much of the problem is simply a really bad product on the court. UC is a basketball school with great tradition. You have to insult the fanbase to get attendance figures like this--and that is what has happened. The play of this team is an embarassment. Does anybody on this board ever watch good programs? I challenge anyone to point out another major program or even a mid major that looks this bad.

Once again...Oh please.

Now we are the worst program in majors or mid majors. Get a grip.

(11-17-2010 07:41 PM)cmhcat Wrote:  I submit that much of the problem is simply a really bad product on the court. UC is a basketball school with great tradition. You have to insult the fanbase to get attendance figures like this--and that is what has happened. The play of this team is an embarassment. Does anybody on this board ever watch good programs? I challenge anyone to point out another major program or even a mid major that looks this bad.

Holy... They've had somewhat of a rough go of it but they're not THAT bad. Hell if they would of knocked off WVU last year in the Big East Tourney they had a shot at the NCAA's. Lets not overblow this.

(11-17-2010 07:49 PM)BearcatShane09 Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 07:41 PM)cmhcat Wrote:  I submit that much of the problem is simply a really bad product on the court. UC is a basketball school with great tradition. You have to insult the fanbase to get attendance figures like this--and that is what has happened. The play of this team is an embarassment. Does anybody on this board ever watch good programs? I challenge anyone to point out another major program or even a mid major that looks this bad.

Holy... They've had somewhat of a rough go of it but they're not THAT bad. Hell if they would of knocked off WVU last year in the Big East Tourney they had a shot at the NCAA's. Lets not overblow this.

I guess I was a little disappointed in what I saw in the game Monday night.

Top 25 attendance
1995 (#23), 1997 (#21), 1999 (#24), 2000 (#23), 2001 (#19), 2002 (#25), 2003 (#25), 2004 (#23), 2005 (#27)

It has taken 4 years of an almost unwatchable product (followed by countless excuses on the post-game) to get to this point. The fan base has given the post-Huggins era a chance and it will come back if/when there is a competitive product. No administration deserves blind loyalty, just like they show no loyalty when a sport succeeds - prices increase and it's pay up or move out. Schools that enjoy this are usually the only dog and pony show in town.

(11-17-2010 09:32 PM)IMac Wrote:  Top 25 attendance
1995 (#23), 1997 (#21), 1999 (#24), 2000 (#23), 2001 (#19), 2002 (#25), 2003 (#25), 2004 (#23), 2005 (#27)

It has taken 4 years of an almost unwatchable product (followed by countless excuses on the post-game) to get to this point. The fan base has given the post-Huggins era a chance and it will come back if/when there is a competitive product. No administration deserves blind loyalty, just like they show no loyalty when a sport succeeds - prices increase and it's pay up or move out. Schools that enjoy this are usually the only dog and pony show in town.

Wow look at that sharp decline in the late Huggins years. absolutely staggering.

Not that it'll change anyone's minds, but:

WCU 69 @ DePaul 64 (Att 7021)
Southern Miss 60 @ USF 53 (Att 3689)
Stetson 89 @ Wake Forest 79 (Att 8323)
VCU 90 @ Wake Forest 69 (Att 8119)
Georgia Tech 63 @ Kennesaw State 80
South Dakota State 79 @ Iowa 69 (Att 11,700)
North Texas 92 @ Texas Tech 83 (Att 7105)
NC-Asheville 70 @ Auburn 69 (Att 9121)
Nicholls State 62 @ LSU 53 (Att 6913)
(Some notable mids)
Gardner Webb 78 @ Charlotte 70 (Att 5595)
WKU 98 @ St. Joseph's 70 (Att N/A)
Austin Peay 64 @ St. Louis 62 (Att 7511)
Pacific 64 @ Nevada 53 (Att N/A)

A lot of home losses here, some of them BAD. All but one of those reported attendence better than Cincinnati's.

Let the excuses continue!

(11-17-2010 09:40 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Not that it'll change anyone's minds, but:

WCU 69 @ DePaul 64 (Att 7021)
Southern Miss 60 @ USF 53 (Att 3689)
Stetson 89 @ Wake Forest 79 (Att 8323)
VCU 90 @ Wake Forest 69 (Att 8119)
Georgia Tech 63 @ Kennesaw State 80
South Dakota State 79 @ Iowa 69 (Att 11,700)
North Texas 92 @ Texas Tech 83 (Att 7105)
NC-Asheville 70 @ Auburn 69 (Att 9121)
Nicholls State 62 @ LSU 53 (Att 6913)
(Some notable mids)
Gardner Webb 78 @ Charlotte 70 (Att 5595)
WKU 98 @ St. Joseph's 70 (Att N/A)
Austin Peay 64 @ St. Louis 62 (Att 7511)
Pacific 64 @ Nevada 53 (Att N/A)

A lot of home losses here, some of them BAD. All but one of those reported attendence better than Cincinnati's.

Let the excuses continue!

I'd like to audit that Auburn number, did they bring the football team out at the half?

(11-17-2010 02:13 PM)BearcatOtto Wrote:  A city school.
Limited market area.
In a professional market.
Local market is shared with OSU, UK, XU & Miami.
Compared to enrollment, relatively small on-campus student population

You just described the Miami Hurricanes.

They are down a bit now but still have a pretty stout program.

At over 5 million people (3,000,000 more than Cincinnati), Miami is the 7th largest metro area in the US.
UM is a private institution.
The enrollment is less than half that of UC.

Bank United Center Capacity: 7000

Selected basketball attendance figures:

10/11 basketball season:
1 home game played
11/12/10 Jacksonville 3,949

09/10 season:
1/19/10 Bos College 5,133
2/10/10 GA Tech 4,319
2/23/10 Virginia 3,909
2/27/10 NC State 4,358

Their attendance has always sucked.

(11-17-2010 09:46 PM)IMac Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 09:40 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Not that it'll change anyone's minds, but:

WCU 69 @ DePaul 64 (Att 7021)
Southern Miss 60 @ USF 53 (Att 3689)
Stetson 89 @ Wake Forest 79 (Att 8323)
VCU 90 @ Wake Forest 69 (Att 8119)
Georgia Tech 63 @ Kennesaw State 80
South Dakota State 79 @ Iowa 69 (Att 11,700)
North Texas 92 @ Texas Tech 83 (Att 7105)
NC-Asheville 70 @ Auburn 69 (Att 9121)
Nicholls State 62 @ LSU 53 (Att 6913)
(Some notable mids)
Gardner Webb 78 @ Charlotte 70 (Att 5595)
WKU 98 @ St. Joseph's 70 (Att N/A)
Austin Peay 64 @ St. Louis 62 (Att 7511)
Pacific 64 @ Nevada 53 (Att N/A)

A lot of home losses here, some of them BAD. All but one of those reported attendence better than Cincinnati's.

Let the excuses continue!

I'd like to audit that Auburn number, did they bring the football team out at the half?

That's what I thought

It spoiled the christening of the $86 million Auburn Arena, the Tigers' new home after spending 42 years across the street at Beard-Eaves-Memorial Stadium.

And, based on visual evidence, 9,000 is generous.

Point is, a lot of people have excused our poor attendence for having a "crappy product". I submit around a dozen bad losses out there with attendence that exceeded our opening win.

We have two - although less than ideal - winning seasons in a row after pretty much self-imposing a de-facto death penalty.

You tell me if we REALLY deserve 4K attendence.

(11-17-2010 10:08 PM)b Wrote:  [quote='rath v2.0' pid='5916871' dateline='1289983884']
Outside of a small devoted core, UC fans stink. For all sports. Always have. It's easier to whine at a keyboard and let someone else support the programs than pay...what all of 8 bucks a game for the Lair? There I said it.

Want to predict attendance for football next year? It will be back in the mid 20s once the bandwagon jumpers clear out and break their ankles en mass.

**** em'...just *** em'... Wiser words were never spoken.

you sound like a guy who bought a beta max and is trying desperately to save his investment from becoming junk.

You got your ticket, by all means enjoy it. Stretch out and enjoy the legroom. take advantage of the no lines concession area. The ease of getting out.

To all those who don't attend many games--or any, did you ever think you'd be blamed for the product that's on the court?

Rath just think about this for a second, if you put a list of who to blame for UC's problems in basketball together, you actually have "everybody" listed before mick. That's love right there.

Quote:Not buying the schedule argument. Its this seasons convenient cop out. Folks should just say what it really is. They don't want to support a program that is not tops in a conference with their time and $$. Even then most locals around the 3-4 big UC boards won't spend their sheckles and time to show up. Many of them didn't even in the best of times. Why would they now when the goal going forward for a program with the 13th rated BE budget is to try to get into the top 7-8 in conference?

People have been saying that for a while. People aren't as thrilled with mick as you are.

Not sure where you been but the rule is a small group will always show up for the games but to pack the house, they need something worth seeing. Again, winning cures a lot of problems. Schedule their games at a high school then they'll have their packed house. How about use cardboard cutouts in the stands and pipe in some cheering and see if that helps.

Quote:This fanbase gets what it pays for. ROI? Probably gets better than it even deserves, IMO.

Wow, it's our fault? Really? It ain't costing us a damn thing. Are you getting your money's worth?

(11-17-2010 11:49 AM)apoe Wrote:  I could not disagree more. There are still IU fans angered by Knight being let go. Instead of whining 10 years later they continue to support the program. Mike Davis was fired after 6 seasons at IU.....6. IU fans support the program and fill the coffers. That is why they can hire a coach like Crean. It has nothing to do with the administrations commitment to winning.

Coach knight has done and said a lot of crazy stuff and as long as IU was a top 10 team they all laughed and let knight be knight. Only when his teams were no longer a powerhouse then they started to crack down. Make no mistake about it, the fanbase got rid of knight because they were declining. Lets not revise history. IU fans show up but they have higher expectations. If we were like IU, Mick would be gone already.

(11-17-2010 09:59 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Point is, a lot of people have excused our poor attendence for having a "crappy product". I submit around a dozen bad losses out there with attendence that exceeded our opening win.

We have two - although less than ideal - winning seasons in a row after pretty much self-imposing a de-facto death penalty.

You tell me if we REALLY deserve 4K attendence.

Are you saying people should just go even if they are not entertained? I've heard many times our team get booed by it's own fans.

I'm a boxing fan. Sometimes I order PPV fights when I really want to see it. Other times I wait for it to come to tv. Truth be told, it's been a while since i ordered a fight. The product is not good enough to go above and beyond watching it on tv. the same is true for uc

(11-17-2010 02:45 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-17-2010 02:13 PM)BearcatOtto Wrote:  A city school.
Limited market area.
In a professional market.
Local market is shared with OSU, UK, XU & Miami.
Compared to enrollment, relatively small on-campus student population


You just described the Miami Hurricanes.

They are down a bit now but still have a pretty stout program.

This also describes Pitt's situation. Doesn't seem to affect them either.

Pittsburgh metro has a little over 200,000 more residents than Cincinnati.

Pittsburgh is a vibrant town with excellent retaurants, a great bar scene, and preserved historical neighborhoods, despite having "0" streetcars or trolleys. Imagine that.

U Pitt is a private institution.
They have no area college basketball competitors.
Western PA abhors eastern PA.
Professional sports abound, including hockey.
Pitt has an enrollment of 28,000 students, about 13,000 less than UC, plus a much larger post grad percentage (came from another school and not as interested in athletics)

Pitt is the presently rated #5 in the Country, and is expected to challange for the Big East Championship.

Home court is the Peterson Events Center which seats 12,504.

10/11 home attendance figures:
11/8/10 Rhode Island 9,256
11/10/10 UIC 9,148
11/13/10 UNF 10,052

They're #5 & the place isn't filled.

Apathy abounds in basketball land.

we suck