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The Economist
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #1
The Economist
For the last ten years, I have felt that the best and most interesting commentary on American events comes from the British journal The Economist. Here a recent essay that hits close to home:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/di...D=13990207

The last paragraph shows a better understanding of this free country than you're ever likely to hear or read from any pol, blog, wonk, celeb, tweet, or other media outlet on our own side of the Pond:

Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best—just as it is the relentless competition of clever new firms from Portland to Pittsburgh that will pull the country out of its current gloom. But, to give Texas some credit and serve as a warning to Mr Schwarzenegger’s heir, at this moment America’s two most futuristic states look a lot more like equals than ever before.
07-20-2009 04:43 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: The Economist
(07-20-2009 04:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  For the last ten years, I have felt that the best and most interesting commentary on American events comes from the British journal The Economist. Here a recent essay that hits close to home:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/di...D=13990207

The last paragraph shows a better understanding of this free country than you're ever likely to hear or read from any pol, blog, wonk, celeb, tweet, or other media outlet on our own side of the Pond:

Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best—just as it is the relentless competition of clever new firms from Portland to Pittsburgh that will pull the country out of its current gloom. But, to give Texas some credit and serve as a warning to Mr Schwarzenegger’s heir, at this moment America’s two most futuristic states look a lot more like equals than ever before.

Agreed, with respect to both the Economist and the referenced article.

I tend to find at least one comment per week that makes me think, "You'd never get that kind of analysis in Time or Newsweek or USNews."
07-20-2009 06:12 PM
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WoodlandsOwl Offline
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Post: #3
RE: The Economist
(07-20-2009 04:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  For the last ten years, I have felt that the best and most interesting commentary on American events comes from the British journal The Economist. Here a recent essay that hits close to home:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/di...D=13990207

The last paragraph shows a better understanding of this free country than you're ever likely to hear or read from any pol, blog, wonk, celeb, tweet, or other media outlet on our own side of the Pond:

Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best—just as it is the relentless competition of clever new firms from Portland to Pittsburgh that will pull the country out of its current gloom. But, to give Texas some credit and serve as a warning to Mr Schwarzenegger’s heir, at this moment America’s two most futuristic states look a lot more like equals than ever before.

Rick Perry may be, IMO a "Major League F'up", but Texas is riding the gravy train compared to California.

Maybe the Texas Legislature is wise enough to realize that if Texas ever equaled California in terms of regulation and taxation, then its highly unlikely that they would leave Austin alive.
07-20-2009 09:00 PM
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ESE84 Offline
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RE: The Economist
(07-20-2009 09:00 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 04:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  For the last ten years, I have felt that the best and most interesting commentary on American events comes from the British journal The Economist. Here a recent essay that hits close to home:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/di...D=13990207

The last paragraph shows a better understanding of this free country than you're ever likely to hear or read from any pol, blog, wonk, celeb, tweet, or other media outlet on our own side of the Pond:

Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best—just as it is the relentless competition of clever new firms from Portland to Pittsburgh that will pull the country out of its current gloom. But, to give Texas some credit and serve as a warning to Mr Schwarzenegger’s heir, at this moment America’s two most futuristic states look a lot more like equals than ever before.

Rick Perry may be, IMO a "Major League F'up", but Texas is riding the gravy train compared to California.

The line about Texas lagging California in culture gave me pause. I think that shows an author bias - that maybe Texas is lagging California in the kinds of culture he prefers.

But I do agree that Texas underspends on universities, ever protecting UT and A&M. And that is one of my beefs against Governor Perry and the Legislature. We need to find the funds to elevate more universities to the status enjoyed by UT and A&M.
07-20-2009 09:42 PM
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emmiesix Offline
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Post: #5
RE: The Economist
(07-20-2009 09:42 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 09:00 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 04:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  For the last ten years, I have felt that the best and most interesting commentary on American events comes from the British journal The Economist. Here a recent essay that hits close to home:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/di...D=13990207

The last paragraph shows a better understanding of this free country than you're ever likely to hear or read from any pol, blog, wonk, celeb, tweet, or other media outlet on our own side of the Pond:

Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best—just as it is the relentless competition of clever new firms from Portland to Pittsburgh that will pull the country out of its current gloom. But, to give Texas some credit and serve as a warning to Mr Schwarzenegger’s heir, at this moment America’s two most futuristic states look a lot more like equals than ever before.

Rick Perry may be, IMO a "Major League F'up", but Texas is riding the gravy train compared to California.

The line about Texas lagging California in culture gave me pause. I think that shows an author bias - that maybe Texas is lagging California in the kinds of culture he prefers.

But I do agree that Texas underspends on universities, ever protecting UT and A&M. And that is one of my beefs against Governor Perry and the Legislature. We need to find the funds to elevate more universities to the status enjoyed by UT and A&M.

It's true that complaining about a "dearth of culture" is almost always a shorthand for "traditional culture of the type I prefer" since, I believe, all societies have a particular set of values & way of doing things thus "having culture" is automatic... I remember that word being hard to pin down in social studies as a kid.

However, I also think it is true that Texas lags behind California in the arts, in a big way. I say this not ever having visited California. But knowing the reputations and number of e.g. the symphony orchestras, ballet houses, art districts, etc. I would say that is fairly accurate IF you think that kind of thing is important (I do).
07-21-2009 09:14 AM
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75src Offline
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Post: #6
RE: The Economist
Are we really lacking in arts in Houston. We have the Hoiuston Symphony, Houston Opera, Houston Ballet and Alley Theater downtown.
The Houston Fine Arts Museum, Menil Collection and Contemporary Arts Museum are in Houston. I would not consider the arts in Houston to be all that beneath what is California. Of course, New York City is a whole different matter with all its different museums and performing companies.

The most interesting thing I noticed in the article was that Rice was mentioned as the only top 20 US Universities in Texas. However, I thought no state would have more than two.

(07-21-2009 09:14 AM)emmiesix Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 09:42 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 09:00 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 04:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  For the last ten years, I have felt that the best and most interesting commentary on American events comes from the British journal The Economist. Here a recent essay that hits close to home:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/di...D=13990207

The last paragraph shows a better understanding of this free country than you're ever likely to hear or read from any pol, blog, wonk, celeb, tweet, or other media outlet on our own side of the Pond:

Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best—just as it is the relentless competition of clever new firms from Portland to Pittsburgh that will pull the country out of its current gloom. But, to give Texas some credit and serve as a warning to Mr Schwarzenegger’s heir, at this moment America’s two most futuristic states look a lot more like equals than ever before.

Rick Perry may be, IMO a "Major League F'up", but Texas is riding the gravy train compared to California.

The line about Texas lagging California in culture gave me pause. I think that shows an author bias - that maybe Texas is lagging California in the kinds of culture he prefers.

But I do agree that Texas underspends on universities, ever protecting UT and A&M. And that is one of my beefs against Governor Perry and the Legislature. We need to find the funds to elevate more universities to the status enjoyed by UT and A&M.

It's true that complaining about a "dearth of culture" is almost always a shorthand for "traditional culture of the type I prefer" since, I believe, all societies have a particular set of values & way of doing things thus "having culture" is automatic... I remember that word being hard to pin down in social studies as a kid.

However, I also think it is true that Texas lags behind California in the arts, in a big way. I say this not ever having visited California. But knowing the reputations and number of e.g. the symphony orchestras, ballet houses, art districts, etc. I would say that is fairly accurate IF you think that kind of thing is important (I do).
07-21-2009 11:30 AM
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RE: The Economist
(07-21-2009 11:30 AM)75src Wrote:  Are we really lacking in arts in Houston. We have the Hoiuston Symphony, Houston Opera, Houston Ballet and Alley Theater downtown.
The Houston Fine Arts Museum, Menil Collection and Contemporary Arts Museum are in Houston. I would not consider the arts in Houston to be all that beneath what is California. Of course, New York City is a whole different matter with all its different museums and performing companies.

The most interesting thing I noticed in the article was that Rice was mentioned as the only top 20 US Universities in Texas. However, I thought no state would have more than two.

As Emmie touched on, lack of culture means "lack of culture so far as I know/care."

As far as top 20 schools, one could certainly make an argument for Cal, Stanford, and Cal Tech... plus UCLA and USC are perennially just outside the top 20 looking in. But more importantly, the place that California really beats up on Texas is the very high level of its non-flagship UC schools (Aforementioned UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UCDavis, UCIrvine), and even of its CSU schools relative to Texas state U's. Not to mention a number of top-tier liberal arts colleges like Claremont Colleges.
07-21-2009 01:53 PM
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Post: #8
RE: The Economist
Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best...

This is great in theory, but I wonder whether we're really using this to our advantage. I think most of our policy is derived from dogma rather than empiricism. Whenever somebody discusses the effectiveness of rail transit, a response along the lines of "if you like Europe so much, why don't you move there?" is inevitable. Sadly that sort of rhetorical technique seems to work.
07-21-2009 03:29 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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RE: The Economist
(07-21-2009 03:29 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best...

This is great in theory, but I wonder whether we're really using this to our advantage. I think most of our policy is derived from dogma rather than empiricism. Whenever somebody discusses the effectiveness of rail transit, a response along the lines of "if you like Europe so much, why don't you move there?" is inevitable. Sadly that sort of rhetorical technique seems to work.
I wonder if there is a similar phenomenon in Europe: if someone complains about taxation or regulation or cost or crowding or ethnic violence, do people say "If you dislike those things so much, why don't you move to America?"

Of course one difference is that the question asked in America really is rhetorical, as few Americans actually move to Europe. But the corresponding question in Europe is not rhetorical at all, and never has been. Just as the dominant demographic fact of medieval Europe was the population stagnation caused by the Little Ice Age and the Black Death, the dominant demographic fact of modern Europe has been the migration of its people to the New World. So maybe Europeans are reluctant to pose the question, knowing full well that the person just might move to America -- no doubt joining their ancestors, grandparents, parents, cousins and friends who already have.
07-21-2009 07:49 PM
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JOwl Offline
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RE: The Economist
Guess it depends on your definition of "modern Europe". From my time living in France, I'd say the dominant demographic fact was the immigration from their former colonies, in particular from north Africa, and the complete inability of French society to integrate the immigrants.
07-21-2009 11:27 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: The Economist
(07-21-2009 03:29 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best...
This is great in theory, but I wonder whether we're really using this to our advantage. I think most of our policy is derived from dogma rather than empiricism. Whenever somebody discusses the effectiveness of rail transit, a response along the lines of "if you like Europe so much, why don't you move there?" is inevitable. Sadly that sort of rhetorical technique seems to work.

Agree wholeheartedly. The 50 states aren't the only laboratories. And our federal-government-heavy system doesn't give them nearly enough freedom to be as useful in this regard as they could be.

I find it difficult to believe that many intelligent, open-minded people could ride the Eurostar or a Japanese Shinkansen without concluding that it is a better way of doing things.

Look health care. Are analyzing the various European experiences as examples of what works and what doesn't? Of course not. If we were, we would be evolving toward some kind of hybrid approach like France, rather than emulating UK or Canada like Obamacare.

Look at energy. The only countries that have gone from serious dependence on foreign energy sources to energy independence or something approaching it are Brasil and the countries surrounding the North Sea. In the latter case, it was clearly a happenstance of nature, and one whose impact is reaching the decline stage. So, shouldn't we be learning lessons from Brasil? Of course. Have we? No, because their experience (invest heavily in alternatives AND drill here, drill now) is a much better fit for Paris Hilton than for either major political party.

Look at the military. Maintaining large standing armed forces is incredibly expensive, and the temptation is great to send them in at the first sign of trouble, even in places where we don't belong. The way to maintain a large military capability (which we need) without it costing you an arm and a leg is to keep the vast majority of it at something less than a hair-trigger state of readiness. Would a reserve-heavy system like Israel or Sweden or Switzerland give us the capability to defend everything we need to defend, save lots of money, and reduce our political leadership's temptation to get involved where we have no national interests? I think it's worth a look. Are we looking that way? Nope.

These lessons, and many more, are obvious to Americans who have travelled extensively--or lived--overseas. To the average American--who hasn't--they're not. It would be a whole lot harder for democrats--or republicans--to pull the wool over our eyes if that were not the case.
07-22-2009 06:11 AM
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emmiesix Offline
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Post: #12
RE: The Economist
(07-22-2009 06:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-21-2009 03:29 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
Quote:There is no perfect model of government: it is America’s genius to have 50 public-policy laboratories competing to find out what works best...
This is great in theory, but I wonder whether we're really using this to our advantage. I think most of our policy is derived from dogma rather than empiricism. Whenever somebody discusses the effectiveness of rail transit, a response along the lines of "if you like Europe so much, why don't you move there?" is inevitable. Sadly that sort of rhetorical technique seems to work.

Agree wholeheartedly. The 50 states aren't the only laboratories. And our federal-government-heavy system doesn't give them nearly enough freedom to be as useful in this regard as they could be.

I find it difficult to believe that many intelligent, open-minded people could ride the Eurostar or a Japanese Shinkansen without concluding that it is a better way of doing things.

Look health care. Are analyzing the various European experiences as examples of what works and what doesn't? Of course not. If we were, we would be evolving toward some kind of hybrid approach like France, rather than emulating UK or Canada like Obamacare.

Look at energy. The only countries that have gone from serious dependence on foreign energy sources to energy independence or something approaching it are Brasil and the countries surrounding the North Sea. In the latter case, it was clearly a happenstance of nature, and one whose impact is reaching the decline stage. So, shouldn't we be learning lessons from Brasil? Of course. Have we? No, because their experience (invest heavily in alternatives AND drill here, drill now) is a much better fit for Paris Hilton than for either major political party.

Look at the military. Maintaining large standing armed forces is incredibly expensive, and the temptation is great to send them in at the first sign of trouble, even in places where we don't belong. The way to maintain a large military capability (which we need) without it costing you an arm and a leg is to keep the vast majority of it at something less than a hair-trigger state of readiness. Would a reserve-heavy system like Israel or Sweden or Switzerland give us the capability to defend everything we need to defend, save lots of money, and reduce our political leadership's temptation to get involved where we have no national interests? I think it's worth a look. Are we looking that way? Nope.

These lessons, and many more, are obvious to Americans who have travelled extensively--or lived--overseas. To the average American--who hasn't--they're not. It would be a whole lot harder for democrats--or republicans--to pull the wool over our eyes if that were not the case.

Except maybe for energy, I strongly agree. I cannot claim to be well-traveled, but I have skipped the pond twice, and I was shocked to hear from our American tour guide in Paris that only some tiny fraction of Americans even own a passport (she was congratulating us all on "getting out there"). Health care in particular has become more and more of a disappointment to me. It's so obviously broken now, and we have this great gift of looking around the world at all of what's been tried, and as you say, we don't even look.

On energy, I am merely ambivalent on whether more drilling does anything for us. I had understood from a friend that domestic sources are currently very far from dried up, and that some of the expectation there has been drummed up by creative accounting by our own corps. Can't verify that, obviously, but it wouldn't surprise me. I'm far more interested in a strategy laid out by Lester Brown when I heard him speak recently --

In WWII, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, we gathered up all the auto-makers and told them they would now be making war planes. The quote as I generally recall it was that they said "Mr. President, we'll do our best, but it will be hard to fill these orders along with our usual stock of cars..." to which the reply was "well you're not going to make cars". And it was actually ILLEGAL to manufacture cars for some number of years. I NEVER heard this in history class, by the way. Very interesting, to me. In any case, he was laying out that the same case could be made today, that we could probably do without new cars for 3 years and instead become a world-leader "overnight" in wind-turbine manufacturing. He used real numbers in his talk, and they actually made sense, though I can't recall if he wanted to ban car manufacture in the same way, but something similar. This came after the scare-the-pants off you part of the talk where it seemed that overpopulation --> water shortages --> food shortages were going to become a major problem rather soon, so I was happy to see that SOMEONE had worked out a strategy using existing technology that actually did cover our entire energy needs.

Again sorry to stray from topic, but I've actually wanted to ask what you more conservative types think about the above idea. Brown mentioned at the end that he didn't think it would happen unless some kind of environmental catastrophe occured first, an environmental "pearl harbor" if you will.
07-22-2009 09:16 AM
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Post: #13
RE: The Economist
Emmie, won't repeat the post in the interest of brevity.

I would describe your thoughts about energy as somewhat ill-informed, but as usual, agree or disagree, you do a good job of presenting your points without being objectionable, and in that spirit I'd like to try to add some perspective that may help you understand the issues better.

Looking at the numbers is the best way to understand that we need alternatives AND we need drill here, drill now, AND we need conservation. Probably about equal parts of all three, at least that would be a good way to start out, and adjust from there as we gain experience.

We use 20 million barrels of oil per day, of which we import 13 million barrels, the latter number being similar to the amount of that oil we use for transportation. As pointed out by Richard Heinberg in his book, The Party's Over: Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies, our dependence on oil has come about largely because oil is more energy dense, easier to transport, capable of being refined into a wider variety of products, and more versatile than any other source. David Sandalow (Brookings energy guru) essentially agrees in his book, Freedom from Oil, and also notes that oil is the cheapest source. Both of these guys are widely regarded as being on the left side of the spectrum, so these are hardly conservative talking points. The problem with their books (both of which I'm quoting in an article I'm writing right now) is that, when they get to the parts where they are talking about proposed solutions, they kinda sorta forget to address these realities.

In addition to the foregoing, any alternative currently under consideration suffers from at least one of the following deficiencies:
1. Scale -- the source simply isn't, and cannot be, big enough to displace enough oil to matter
2. Infrastructure -- the source itself may be there, and may even be ready to go, but the necessary infrastructure to get it to flow easily in the stream of commerce isn't there, and isn't going to be there any time soon
3. Price -- the source is much more expensive than oil

Wind, and most other alternatives addressed in the current Obama proposals, are not substitutes for oil. This is why I say that Obama's plan will have us importing more oil in 2015 than we do today; it's alternatives won't displace current oil consumption nearly as fast as its prohibitions on drilling will cause domestic production to decline, leaving a wider gap then than now. Wind makes electricity; we currently get less than 3% of our electricity from oil. Wind would displace coal or natural gas as sources for electricity. The source of Boone Pickens' plan is that he wants to develop wind farms, but he is afraid that if he does he will depress the price of natural gas, and he also has a lot of gas production. Like Ross Perot's opposition to NAFTA, the Pickens Plan is largely a product of personal economic self-interest dressed up as concern for humanity; that doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea (Perot's was a bad idea), but it should be understood in that light. It is instructive that Pickens now seems to be abandoning, or at least significantly modifying, his plan because he can't get rights for transmission lines to move the electricity from his windmills to the places that need electricity (this is one example of the infrastructure argument above).

The way that wind could impact oil consumption is widespread adoption of electric cars. The Obama goal is to have a million electric cars on the road by 2010. That will displace, at the very most, 200 thousand barrels of oil a day (work out the numbers for yourself if you want to). We need way more than a million electric cars on the road, but that will have to wait for two developments:
1. Enough electric generation capacity, and enough transmission capacity, that when people go home at night and plug in their cars to charge, it won't black out the country. This means we need wind and solar and nuclear. A big problem with wind and solar is that they aren't "on demand" sources; if we get a spike in demand on a cloudy day (or at night) and the wind isn't blowing, wind and solar can't fill that need. Nuclear can, as can natural gas (and to a lesser degree coal and oil fired plants, which require more warmup time).
2. Improved batteries to store electricity more effectively and efficiently, so that the range of electric cars can be expanded. Proponents like to point out that the current range is about 50 miles, and the average commute is about 25 miles, so the present situation is "perfect." It's anything but; the relationship noted means that electric cars are impractical for roughly half our population, not to mention those in the other half who like the ability to run a few errands on their way to/from work. Obviously, better storage technology would also help address the "on demand" issue noted above with regard to wind and solar.

One problem with electric cars, and with CAFE standards (another favorite of the left) is that we only turn over about 7% of our national motor fleet every year. That means it's going to take a long time for either to work their way into the market in large enough numbers to make a difference. That's not a reason not to pursue them, it just emphasizes the need to plan realistically for the effects, and understand the need for interim measures to get us over the hump until the alternatives blossom.

One thing that would get us over the hump is sugar cane ethanol. This has been one of Brasil's "magic bullets" and they now get about 44% of their motor fuel from sugar cane ethanol and biodiesel, with ethanol being by far the larger of the two. Corn ethanol is pretty much a mistake; its primary value is to demonstrate how badly government planning screws things up. We have caused starvation by skewing world food markets, we still only get something less than 10% of our gasoline from ethanol, and we've probably done more harm to the environment by clearing forests for corn fields than we've done good by reducing oil use. Sugar cane has one huge advantage over corn--it is 4 times as efficient a source. You have to use 1 gallon of gasoline/diesel/ethanol to make 2 gallons of corn ethanol, but you get 8 gallons of sugar cane ethanol for the same effort. The same 4 to 1 factor, or thereabouts, applies to acres required to farm, so the farm/forest tradeoff described above is much more favorable. We can't produce enough sugar cane domestically to replicate Brasil's experience, but we can come pretty close by importing from Brasil and other Latin American countries. The problem is that right now the midwest farm states have pushed huge subsidies for corn and penalties for alternatives, and Obama was one of the worst in this. If we pulled the subsidies and penalties, and tried to get to 35% ethanol, the market for corn ethanol would remain strong and the farmers would do just fine, but nobody has the political courage to do this (and with the Iowa caucuses opening the presidential campaign, that courage is going to be in short supply). What would we gain? Well, we'd still be importing, but we'd be importing from a lot closer to home. More significantly, for the first time we'd actually have an alternative to oil--if OPEC jacks the price of oil too high, we use more ethanol, or if Brasil jacks the price of ethanol too high we use more oil. And I have to believe that ethanol production would give Latin American economies a huge boost, and I know of no better way to ease the twin pressures of immigration and drugs. I've seen estimates that Cuba could supply enough ethanol to displace up to 20% of our current gasoline consumption. Fidel did not want to do this, but Raoul seems open to it; that alone would be grounds to end the silly trade restrictions IMO.

As for drill here, drill now, it's probably not the long-term solution (although that's not absolutely certain, as I will explain), but it's an awfully important part of surviving the next few years. Sugar cane ethanol could have an impact immediately. Drill here, drill now could have an additional impact in three to five years. Yes, I know there was a much-ballyhooed report out of the Energy Department last year that said it would be 10 years, but you have to actually read the report to find out what it really said, rather than trust the lying liars who bandied those findings about. Implicit in the study was the assumption that there would be no change in the policy with respect to offshore drilling for 5 years. So 5 of the "10" years could be wiped out by changing the policy tomorrow. From there, the study assumed that significant amounts of oil would flow in the 4-6 year time frame. The industry says 3-5, and I think the major difference between those two estimates is different assumptions regarding the speed of regulatory approvals (which could always be expedited for good reason).

Drill here, drill now would have an impact on price long before the first barrel flowed because it would impact the futures market and thus speculation. Oil "speculators" are not some evil force; think about it, you can't speculate without some degree of economic necessity to drive the speculation. What happens in oil is this. Assume you can store a barrel of oil for $1 a month. Assume you believe that in 24 months the price of a barrel of oil will be $125. If today's prices are $60 a barrel, you can buy up oil and store it, have $84 invested in the oil in 24 months, sell it for $125, and make a huge profit. So you will bid up today's price, to as high as about $100 per barrel (because that's the point at which you no longer make money). Drill here, drill now would immediately reduce the pressure on the futures price, and that would in turn reduce the upward impact of speculation on the current price.

As long as we are going to be dependent on oil (and for reasons that I've outlined, I hope you now understand that even with the most aggressive and successful--and lucky--alternatives development program, that's still a long way out) it makes sense to produce as much as we can domestically and import as little as possible. From an economic and national security perspective, I think that's obvious. Less obviously, it's also true from an environmental standpoint. First, the process of bringing oil in by tanker from overseas imposes far greater environmental risks than domestic drilling--three are more spills from tankers than from drilling, the potential for a catastrophic spill is greater from a tanker than an oil well, the mere act of transporting the oil burns fossil fuels that are not needed is we don't haul the oil in. Second, the process of drilling domestically under greater environmental controls is far safer than drilling in some third world countries that are more than willing to look the other way on safety and environmental issues in order to create the economic resource flow.

How much would we get from drill here, drill now? Obviously nobody knows for sure. Best guess is that of the prospects that the oil companies would currently like to explore but are prevented from doing so, some will prove to be dry, some will yield about what is currently expected, some will yield more than is currently projected, and the combination of the last two alternatives will lead to further discoveries that will in total greatly exceed anything that is currently expected. That expectation is based not on geological information, but on historical and economic information; that is simply what always has occurred, and the underlying reasons for that result suggest that it is reasonable to expect a continuation of that trend until the earth has been fully explored (and we are centuries away from that point). That is certainly what Brasil is experiencing in the Santos and Espiritu Santo basins. They've discovered multiple new fields in that area, each roughly the size of ANWR, in the last couple of years.

Much is made of the fact that we only have enough worldwide oil and gas reserves for 10 years or so more production. That's not a geological fact, it's an economic fact. The economics of the industry are such that it doesn't make economic sense to have more than about 10 years of reserves at any point. So stuff doesn't get developed faster. As a result, we've had roughly 10 years worth of reserves at pretty much any point for the last 100 years, we've continued to produce at faster and faster rates, and we've never run out. We're very unlikely to run out, or even threaten to run out, any time soon. But that day will come someday, and it's not too early to start transitioning away from oil in anticipation.

Speaking of ANWR, I'd be in no hurry to develop it. Each year we wait brings us new discoveries of how to minimize environmental damage. At some point, it will make lots of sense to develop it, so I would never support a permanent ban. But I think it makes a lot of sense to keep it in our hip pocket, and don't play that card until the time is right. And my best guess is that the time will be right when the world truly starts to find the string of new discoveries running out.

Those are some thoughts. Consider them and perhaps we could explore some of them further.

As for the scenario you laid out. Yes, we could easily transition to making windmills for the next few years, and our automakers might be a good place to look for that, since they don't seem adept at making autos any more. But while it would be a good thing, it wouldn't really put a dent in our oil demand. And we need to be looking at reducing demand--and increasing supply--in that specific area.
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2009 11:17 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-22-2009 11:12 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #14
RE: The Economist
(07-21-2009 11:27 PM)JOwl Wrote:  Guess it depends on your definition of "modern Europe". From my time living in France, I'd say the dominant demographic fact was the immigration from their former colonies, in particular from north Africa, and the complete inability of French society to integrate the immigrants.

I meant modern in the sense of post-Renaissance, using the old-fashioned historical divisions of Ancient, Medieval, Renaissance, and Modern (which I think further subdivides into Early Modern (pre Industrial Revolution) and Contemporary (from the IR to today)). Those terms may be obsolete, though.
07-22-2009 11:31 AM
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75src Offline
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Post: #15
RE: The Economist
One interesting book to read is Jevons (a British economist) 1865 lament about the United Kingdom running out of coal. The book is available for download on the Internet for free since the copyright ran out decades agos-I think you can find under Jevons on Project Gutenburg. I looked up what elsewhere what happened to British coal production. The British were producing a lot of coal until 1985 when Thatcher said no to the coal miners and most of the coal mining ended. Coal production had probably been subsidized by the government since some after WWII to keep coal miner's jobs. Thatcher put a end to that waste of money. By the time, Great Britian had already started production of North Sea oil and gas.

Electric power generation depends on two types of production-base and peak. Base power production uses steam turbines powered by nuclear, coal or natural gas or hydropower. Base power takes hours to ramp up production and usually stays on. Peak power production usually involves using natural gas turbines (like jet engines that can be turned on rapidly. The renewable sources as wind or solar usually have to be backed up with other capacity since they are not always available. Less natural gas gets burned when when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining since they would uysually replace the gas turbines.
07-22-2009 12:12 PM
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Post: #16
RE: The Economist
(07-22-2009 06:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Agree wholeheartedly. The 50 states aren't the only laboratories.

That was part of my point, but I can't imagine talking about anything in Vermont or Oregon being any more compelling to Joe Texan. "If you like Massachusetts so much, why don't you move there?" Yes, George, I expect the opposite is also true. Our process is bad, and bad process produces bad policy.

I enjoyed your lecture on energy.
07-22-2009 12:25 PM
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JOwl Offline
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Post: #17
RE: The Economist
(07-22-2009 12:12 PM)75src Wrote:  One interesting book to read is Jevons (a British economist) 1865 lament about the United Kingdom running out of coal. The book is available for download on the Internet for free since the copyright ran out decades agos-I think you can find under Jevons on Project Gutenburg. I looked up what elsewhere what happened to British coal production. The British were producing a lot of coal until 1985 when Thatcher said no to the coal miners and most of the coal mining ended. Coal production had probably been subsidized by the government since some after WWII to keep coal miner's jobs. Thatcher put a end to that waste of money. By the time, Great Britian had already started production of North Sea oil and gas.

Electric power generation depends on two types of production-base and peak. Base power production uses steam turbines powered by nuclear, coal or natural gas or hydropower. Base power takes hours to ramp up production and usually stays on. Peak power production usually involves using natural gas turbines (like jet engines that can be turned on rapidly. The renewable sources as wind or solar usually have to be backed up with other capacity since they are not always available. Less natural gas gets burned when when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining since they would uysually replace the gas turbines.

I'd never heard of Jevons before - thanks for that. I'm too lazy to read his book, but the wikipedia entry ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coal_Question ) is fascinating. Looks to me like he was right about coal production peaking, but wrong about the societal impact because he didn't predict that a better energy source (petroleum) would come on to the scene to make the transition from coal fairly painless. Interesting background for today's peak oil discussions.
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2009 01:00 PM by JOwl.)
07-22-2009 01:00 PM
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Post: #18
RE: The Economist
(07-22-2009 12:25 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
(07-22-2009 06:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Agree wholeheartedly. The 50 states aren't the only laboratories.
That was part of my point, but I can't imagine talking about anything in Vermont or Oregon being any more compelling to Joe Texan. "If you like Massachusetts so much, why don't you move there?" Yes, George, I expect the opposite is also true. Our process is bad, and bad process produces bad policy.
I enjoyed your lecture on energy.

One of my favorite Barry Goldwater quotes was his maxim about "proven ways, not because they are old but because they are true." Wherever something has been proved, we should accept that proof and act accordingly.

Glad you enjoyed the energy post (I'm taking that as a serious comment). Would appreciate thoughtful reaction from you, or of course emmie, or anyone else. I guess it did reach lecture proportions. Sorry, but in my defense I am working on an article for publication, and you pretty much got the gist of it there. My initial comment about "brevity" sorta looks silly when you read the whole post, although I suppose it would only have been that much longer if I had quoted emmie's post.
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2009 02:53 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-22-2009 02:52 PM
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JOwl Offline
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Post: #19
RE: The Economist
(07-22-2009 02:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-22-2009 12:25 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
(07-22-2009 06:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Agree wholeheartedly. The 50 states aren't the only laboratories.
That was part of my point, but I can't imagine talking about anything in Vermont or Oregon being any more compelling to Joe Texan. "If you like Massachusetts so much, why don't you move there?" Yes, George, I expect the opposite is also true. Our process is bad, and bad process produces bad policy.
I enjoyed your lecture on energy.

One of my favorite Barry Goldwater quotes was his maxim about "proven ways, not because they are old but because they are true." Wherever something has been proved, we should accept that proof and act accordingly.

Glad you enjoyed the energy post (I'm taking that as a serious comment). Would appreciate thoughtful reaction from you, or of course emmie, or anyone else. I guess it did reach lecture proportions. Sorry, but in my defense I am working on an article for publication, and you pretty much got the gist of it there. My initial comment about "brevity" sorta looks silly when you read the whole post, although I suppose it would only have been that much longer if I had quoted emmie's post.

I certainly enjoyed your energy post, and I mean that as seriously as possible. You should give us a link to the article once you publish it.

Let me address two paragraphs, one I wholeheartedly agree with, and one I don't:

Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:Speaking of ANWR, I'd be in no hurry to develop it. Each year we wait brings us new discoveries of how to minimize environmental damage. At some point, it will make lots of sense to develop it, so I would never support a permanent ban. But I think it makes a lot of sense to keep it in our hip pocket, and don't play that card until the time is right. And my best guess is that the time will be right when the world truly starts to find the string of new discoveries running out.
I couldn't agree more. I'm a lefty and an environmentalist, but also a technologist (the optimist in me says the only way we maintain anything near our current standard of living for the next 50 years is dramatic leaps forward in energy tech). The double-barreled benefit of the "hip pocket" oil (if/when it REALLY hits the fan in the oil market) and the likelihood of less extraction damage in the future makes it a no-brainer for me to keep sitting on ANWR. I don't know what price of oil and level of tech advancement would get to me to change my mind, but we're not there yet.

Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:As long as we are going to be dependent on oil (and for reasons that I've outlined, I hope you now understand that even with the most aggressive and successful--and lucky--alternatives development program, that's still a long way out) it makes sense to produce as much as we can domestically and import as little as possible. From an economic and national security perspective, I think that's obvious. Less obviously, it's also true from an environmental standpoint. First, the process of bringing oil in by tanker from overseas imposes far greater environmental risks than domestic drilling--three are more spills from tankers than from drilling, the potential for a catastrophic spill is greater from a tanker than an oil well, the mere act of transporting the oil burns fossil fuels that are not needed is we don't haul the oil in. Second, the process of drilling domestically under greater environmental controls is far safer than drilling in some third world countries that are more than willing to look the other way on safety and environmental issues in order to create the economic resource flow.

This I don't really agree with. I'm with you that we don't have any good alternatives to oil in the medium future. But I also think that going hard and fast after every drop of oil we have in order to keep prices low now will just make it that much more painful once the current sources start to dry up, and feels like the energy equivalent of financing our current lifestyle with our kids' wealth. Despite the obvious pain, there were definite salutary effects associated with the high oil prices of 2008 (fewer miles driven, consumer focus on fuel efficiency, investment interest in alternative energy). Rather than going for the big score that will keep us swimming in oil over the short term, I think we're better served by limiting production and allowing a bit of that pain, which will give market incentives a nice long lead time to work their magic and enable as smooth as possible a transition out of oil.
Further, I think the hip pocket argument can be extended to all domestic drilling - anything we don't drill now is oil we'll have access to in the future. If you believe, like I do, that prices are going to go up over the long term, then I say let's use their oil now while it's cheap and go drill our oil later when it's more valuable.
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2009 04:35 PM by JOwl.)
07-22-2009 04:33 PM
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Post: #20
RE: The Economist
I tend to skim or skip long message-board posts. They usually aren't worthwhile. This one was. I can't argue any of it, but I'll make a few comments since you asked.

On DHDN it's interesting that ANWR has gotten all the attention. I assume offshore is where you want to drill. I am a moderate environmentalist, but I suspect that in the grand scheme of things that we're doing, drilling in either area would have relatively low impact. I don't think the environment lobby has had much power over the past 28 years anyway, especially from 2001-2006. Ultimately most decisions follow the money. Many of the claims about the EPA preventing the big oil companies from drilling new wells and building new refineries, thereby increasing prices, are wishful thinking on the part of people who just want lower prices in the short term. It's a convenient excuse for those companies, who are really perfectly happy with the status quo. No sane company would spend massive money to reduce their profit margin.

As you said, the day when the oil runs out is going to come eventually. Before that happens we're going to buy everything in Arabia and Venezuela, we're going to drill offshore, and we're going to drill ANWR. Some people complain about sending money overseas, some people complain about the harming the environment, but eventually we're going to do both. So from the policy side I think the issue is more a prediction that as supplies dwindle, our reserves will become much more valuable. It's similar to speculation as you described, except that nobody is paying for storage. Meanwhile the corporations, indignant as they may act, are perfectly happy to make massive profits while keeping that ace in the hole.

Just to be clear, I don't at all blame them for making lots of money. Charging what the market will bear is exactly what they are supposed to do. I just don't like them pinning blame for high prices on the environmentalists who don't really have much influence. Any of them could reduce prices and continue to thrive.

I think it's good that people are realizing that corn ethanol is a hoax. I'm afraid, though, that most of them won't distinguish between corn ethanol, sugar cane ethanol, switchgrass ethanol, and all sorts of biodiesel.
07-22-2009 05:28 PM
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