Nahhhhh, we shouldn't waterboard, it got us nothing

Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

KSM, as intelligence agencies call him, directed the September 11 attacks, which killed 2,978 people and injured at least 7,356. “I am the head of the al-Qaeda military committee,” he told Al Jazeera in April 2002. “And yes, we did it.” KSM wired money to his nephew, Ramzi Yousef, who masterminded the February 1993 World Trade Center blast that killed six and wounded 1,040. KSM and Yousef planned Operation Bojinka, a foiled 1995 scheme to explode 12 American jetliners above the Pacific. While some doubt his claim, KSM reportedly said, “I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew Daniel Pearl in the City of Karachi, Pakistan.”

After U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM in March 2003, he stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him -- for just 90 seconds.

KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 “New Yorker.” “He sang right away.” Another CIA official told ABC: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”

KSM’s revelations helped authorities arrest at least six major terrorists:

*Ohio-based trucker Iyman Faris pleaded guilty May 1, 2003 to providing material support to terrorists. He secured 2,000 sleeping bags for al-Qaeda and delivered cash, cell phones, and airline tickets to its men. He also conspired to derail a train near Washington, D.C. and use acetylene torches to sever the Brooklyn Bridge’s cables, plunging it into the East River.

*Jemaah Islamiya (JI) agent Rusman “Gun Gun” Gunawan was convicted of transferring money to bomb Jakarta’s Marriott Hotel, killing 12 and injuring 150.

*Hambali, Gunawan’s brother and ringleader of JI’s October 2002 Bali nightclub blasts, killed 202 and wounded 209.

*Suspected al-Qaeda agent Majid Khan, officials say, provided money to JI terrorists and plotted to assassinate Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, detonate U.S. gas stations, and poison American water reservoirs.

*Jose Padilla, who trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, was convicted last August of providing material support to terrorists and conspiring to kidnap, maim, and murder people overseas. Padilla, suspected of but not charged with planning a radioactive “dirty bomb” attack, reportedly learned to incinerate residential high-rises by igniting apartments filled with natural gas.

*Malaysian Yazid Sufaat, an American-educated biochemist and JI member, reportedly provided hijackers Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi housing in Kuala Lumpur during a January 2000 9-11 planning summit. He also is suspected of employing “20th hijacker” Zacarias Moussaoui. “The 9-11 Commission Report” (page 151) states: “Sufaat would spend several months attempting to cultivate anthrax for al Qaeda in a laboratory he helped set up near the Kandahar airport.”

Imagine how many innocent people these six Islamo-fascists (and perhaps others) would have murdered had interrogators left KSM unwaterboarded and his secrets unuttered.

(04-19-2009 12:11 AM)Chipdip Wrote:  

Quote:It's proven NOT to be a deterrent against people that want to inflict great harm on us, it's vindictive at best.

Link please?

Here I'll help you..............

http://www.codepink4peace.org/
http://www.dailykos.com/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509200010

And of course Steer's favorite
http://www.motherearthnews.com/

LINK PLEASE!

That old schtick! As if you've ever answered any of my requests for a link, you game playing baby.

Guess what? It never worked, and your links prove nothing. As a matter of reference, did you check those links? They seem to be a LITTLE off topic here, but from you that's nothing new so I thought that I had better ask if they had any relevance other than you being neophyte when it comes to discussions with any depth to them. Dittohead definitions won't work here simple elementary math teacher man.

Quote:Interrogators eventually waterboarded him -- for just 90 seconds.

Maybe we should try cattle-prods on the genitals? It might work faster and we can become more efficient and cut fixed costs?

If we as a free society can't figure out ways to get information without torture than there's something very wrong.

I'd just as soon not be ranked down there with the KGB and Gestapo.

We have had experience at torturing. We have had experience interrogating criminals. We have had people like Sen. McCain who were both interrogated and tortured. It would seem that we could use this information to systematicly study the techniques and determine what works and what doesn't work. And then we can apply what we have learned rather than using techniques that make us asage our anger and satisfy our lust for inflecting pain on others.

Quote:It would seem that we could use this information to systematicly study the techniques and determine what works and what doesn't work. And then we can apply what we have learned rather than using techniques that make us asage our anger and satisfy our lust for inflecting pain on others.

Waterboarding doesn't kill, doesn't drowned, and doesn't inflict long term pain. Two reporters did it and the worst side effect was nightmares. It has proven effective (See Kalid Shake Mohammad). What options are left? Tickle them? Berate them with Yo Momma insults?

You are be played by the left, who routinely berates America. If it weren't the Bush administration ordering the waterboarding you wouldn't even know it was happening.

Quote:If it weren't the Bush administration ordering the waterboarding you wouldn't even know it was happening.

That would be that administration that had such great intel that we were positive Iraq had WMD's and was ready to use them, right? Their techniques are STELLAR!!

I've never seen waterboarding described as "inflicting pain".

So what is more torturous, waterboarding or being buried under a load of debt?

Always proud to be a Bronco.

(04-18-2009 11:19 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Coming from Memphis, I consider that a compliment.

After all you are easily amused

Have to be in order to have a 32 rating, right?

(04-19-2009 01:33 PM)Chipdip Wrote:  It has proven effective (See Kalid Shake Mohammad).

Who is Kalid Shake Mohammad? I don't recall any stories about him in the War on Terror. Is there a third grade teacher present who can help this poor person out?

I heard a story that said nothing was gained after waterboarding was initiated on one of the suspects, but Goggle didn't give a reference for that story.

However, here is one story, citing a CIA memo saying "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003" That is 5 times per day. That is effective? Maybe you have better data on the effectiveness of waterboarding than that.

They also mentioned that "Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002." That is more than twice a day. And twice a day for 31 days is effective?

Here is the reference so you can degrade it as well.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/0...one-month/

I don't know a thing about this website.

Quote:You are be played by the left, who routinely berates America. If it weren't the Bush administration ordering the waterboarding you wouldn't even know it was happening.

McCain is one of the few folks who can speak with authority on this subject, Dip. And he's dead set against it. Everybody elses opinion takes second place to his in my book. That fact that it reinforces my own values makes it doubly valid.

(04-19-2009 10:17 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  

Quote:You are be played by the left, who routinely berates America. If it weren't the Bush administration ordering the waterboarding you wouldn't even know it was happening.

McCain is one of the few folks who can speak with authority on this subject, Dip. And he's dead set against it. Everybody elses opinion takes second place to his in my book. That fact that it reinforces my own values makes it doubly valid.

First off its a rarity, at best0. Its not like a daily practice.

Secondly, this is a political move that is as dangerous as one could imagine. Should he disagree, he could change the pattern and explain w/genaralities. Even the new liberal CIA Director Panetta disagrees w/the handling of this.

BHO explains this off as he wants to open up gov't. That is BS, or he would not have hidden all the BS he has that is against him. This guy has brought in a socialist agenda upon the recognition that Bush is disliked so anything, no matter what, should be accepted. Unfortunately the press is socialist therefore this s#it is going through.


This guy is a total disaster. First socialistic economic policies (good to see he kissed Chavez and Noriegas @## this week, opened up relationships w/the biggest terrorist in Castro). Now he underscores are security. He goes overseas and bashes our ex president (some things are better left at the dinner table) He then exposes stuff that is hurtful in direct speech as oppossed to generalities while fixing what he believes is erred.

Evan Baye, Ben Nelson etc. there are othere coming from the blue side of the aisle.

Reports that have come out are now indicating that the reason behind the "aggressive interrogation" was political. Since Bush and Cheney failed to find the WMD's, which was the original reason given for invading Iraq, they were desperate to find a link between Saddam and Al Queda. When that link also failed to materialize, pressure was put on both the CIA and Military to get a confession from anyone, by using means that were up to that time off limits, to create a link to take the heat off the White House.

IF this is true, Bush and Cheney would have sold our souls to the devil for their own political gain. I sincerely hope that this does not turn out to be the case.

(04-20-2009 08:58 AM)conrock Wrote:  First off its a rarity, at best0. Its not like a daily practice.

So that makes it OK? Nice set of standards to live by. Let's not get worked up over serial murderers since they aren't doing that every day either. Beat the wife and kids? Sure, just don't do it every day.

Conrock, if it is a bad practice, it is a bad practice all the time. Using it when convenient or to achieve a moral end doesn't make it any better. Also, since torture was being used by both the CIA and the Military, and at several locations around the world, I don't think "rarity" belongs there either.

Quote:This guy is a total disaster. First socialistic economic policies (good to see he kissed Chavez and Noriegas @## this week, opened up relationships w/the biggest terrorist in Castro). Now he underscores are security. He goes overseas and bashes our ex president (some things are better left at the dinner table) He then exposes stuff that is hurtful in direct speech as oppossed to generalities while fixing what he believes is erred.

B.O. is the Wizard of Oz (pay no attention to the economy, it's waterboarding and Bush you need to think about!!!!!!)
He wants to keep the focus on Bush, rather than on the economy. He has a willing press and it will work for awhile. 90% of the public is employed although concerned about their companies future, so some can be distracted. But he'll own this economy soon, and it won't matter what the propaganda machine, i.e. the MSM does, he'll be in trouble.

He's painted himself into a corner on the war and Gitmo. He's said he's going to shut them down, but he doesn't have a plan for doing it, and the clock is ticking.

When push comes to shove, this is about the seperation of powers.

First off in the White House, activist administration lawyers creating their own version of legal reality outside the Justice leg of our nations division of power system. And the Bushies did this in many arenas, with in excess of 700 so called "signings" where Congress passes a law, then the President in the process of signing it, adds notes that make the interpretation of the law different than the letter of the law. Other administrations used this, but maybe only a few times in their entire term, not 700+ times.

Second, the current situation, it is not up to the President to determine who gets prosecuted or not. That is the job of the legal branch. The president should not be interferring in the process. If someone broke the law, they broke the law.

Also, it seems that there is an underlying suspicion that interrogations did exceed the nicely defined parameters. If they did, that would have been illegal behavior. Not to mention the renditions, sending people off to other countries where god knows what happened, including death of course.

At the bottom of it all is the feeling they deserved whatever they got, they screwed with us and ultimately the end justifies the means. I could get down with that approach to an extent. The problem for me is it ended up some of the detainees were bad guys, but many were not. Many were just turned in for money bounties, and it was mainly a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. So then we torture them trying to determine if they did anything, or know anything, or not? That is really not the American way.

Quote:That is really not the American way

That's the bottom line. We should set the standards of behavior for everyone else, not violate them.

Those in this forum advocating the use of these methods are using the most deficient form of argument-using exceptional cases to justify standard rules of behavior. It isn't flying.

Quote:Those in this forum...........using exceptional cases to justify

That's different than any other discussion we've had here?

Suddenly I see the wisdom in torture and other illegal or unethical acts we've been involved in...it'll eliminate all wars. There will be no more need to fight the bad guys, because we will be just like them and therefore they won't hate us anymore!

Reports say the waterboarding of the 3-4 guys saved an attack on LA and the Brooklyn Bridge from happening

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/...ented.html