read on a bumper sticker. . ."God doesn't favor groups...Religions do."

(04-17-2009 09:56 AM)pinetownpirate Wrote:  Bush had 8 years. Proof is in the the pudding. Worst President ever.

No, the WORST President would be James Buchanan, followed by Ulysses S. Grant, followed by Warren Harding, then Andrew Johnson, then Pierce, then Fillmore, Tyler, Taylor, THEN W. Bush.

(04-17-2009 10:10 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 09:41 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 09:33 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:27 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:19 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  Obama is a squirl that should not be respected by anyone. After 43 presidents we finally managed to put an unqualified toad in office.

Yeh...being Obama is in office for less than 100 days

James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Warren G. Harding, Millard Fillmore and George W. Bush was SOOOOOO much better

Pirate, You could literally pull someone off the street at random and get more talent than this guy has. The guy got into harvard through an affirmative action program. Hell, they will not even release his college records. We cannot afford these silly utopian dreamers who could mess up a wet dream. This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol.

LOL. and we all know that Bush got into Yale because of his high academic achievements.

On the contrary, Bush released his records and transcripts. You might remember in 2004 the Bush and Kerry records were both released and ole dumb Bush actually had a higher GPA than Kerry.
Obama in Europe: "I do not speak Austrian." This guy is an intellectual nit wit.

I don't see what GW being smarter than Kerry has anything to do with Obama and if you're judging someones intellect by flubs in public speaking, GW must have been our first special needs president.

(04-17-2009 10:31 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:24 AM)oasispirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:13 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  [quote=oasispirate]You just told me that there is a high likelihood I'm going to hell.

Uhhh, no I didn't. What are you talking about?

I said IF Christians turned out to be right and Atheists are wrong, there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true. Then I said that both sides' methods of trying to convert the other are repelling. I didn't say anything about you.
[/quot


Which is essentially the you're going to hell "Pachals Wager" argument. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Like I said one of the major issues I have is that Christians tend to know very little about their faith yet will absolutely fight tooth and nail for it.

Very few Christians even know the first bible was written in Greek, the certain books of the bible were arbitrarly tossed out, what top theologians interpretations of the bible are (again most tend to accept their local poorly educated pastors literal version), or that bible was written many years after Jesus' death.

The onus of truth is absolutely on any religion. If I say there is a fire breathing monster that lives in the great lakes it is on me to provide proof for that claim.

BTW it's absolutely ridiculous to say if you believe in something then you're going to heaven, if you don't then you're going to hell. For starters you cannot force yourself to believe anything. You either buy it or you don't. I have a hard time believing any just god would need such belief to validate him/herself or want to close the door on the cynics.

So you are are saying that god has some secular progressive vie of the world?

I have no idea, which is why I am agnostic which basically states I have no idea. You know what, neither does anyone else no matter what they tell you.

It turns out the belief/heaven/hell preachings were and are one helluva recruitment tool.

I do know that the bible was written by humans many years after Jesus' death, who knows how badly the stories were twisted, turned, and distorted. There is no shortage of that in human history.

I however struggle to grasp some of the core beliefs. AKA all you have to do is worship me and you'll go to heaven (which basically portrays god as an egomaniac), dying for sins (what does this even mean, now we don't have to throw anymore virgins in the firepit), or belief. Again you cannot make yourself believe anything.

I know one thing an agnostic could be a moral, charitable, hardworking, and intelligent individual. That person isn't getting elected to any high office in this country unless lie, which is what I think most of them do.

(04-17-2009 10:35 AM)KnightTower Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 09:56 AM)pinetownpirate Wrote:  Bush had 8 years. Proof is in the the pudding. Worst President ever.

No, the WORST President would be James Buchanan, followed by Ulysses S. Grant, followed by Warren Harding, then Andrew Johnson, then Pierce, then Fillmore, Tyler, Taylor, THEN W. Bush.

Andrew Jackson has the trail of tears on his hands, that alone puts him on the list.

then again it doesn't look good for Bush when all of those other presidents are at minimum 80 years ago.

(04-17-2009 09:33 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:27 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:19 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  Obama is a squirl that should not be respected by anyone. After 43 presidents we finally managed to put an unqualified toad in office.

Yeh...being Obama is in office for less than 100 days

James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Warren G. Harding, Millard Fillmore and George W. Bush was SOOOOOO much better

Pirate, You could literally pull someone off the street at random and get more talent than this guy has. The guy got into harvard through an affirmative action program. Hell, they will not even release his college records. We cannot afford these silly utopian dreamers who could mess up a wet dream. This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol.

Really, you rather have some "regular joe" in the White House? I don't. I would like to see proof on the affirmative action for Harvard. I've never heard of that statement. Plus, he didn't become editor of the Harvard Law Review because of his race. Has anyone even asked about his college record? Why does it even matter? What does this statement even mean "This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol."? Are you referring to our Republic? I don't understand. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you're striking out.

Eagle in the gym

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/16/georgetown-university-hid-religious-symbols-white-house-request/ Wrote:FoxNews[/url]

Surprising? Not really.

A Muslim by any other name.

(04-17-2009 12:02 AM)shyminer Wrote:  any country without GOD in it, is in trouble.

Why is that? Is it because you think man isn't naturally good without a belief in God? Or are we worried of an angry and vengeful God?

Because in Catholic school I was taught about a vengeful God (old testament), who then had a change of heart and sent us his only son Jesus (new testament) to forgive us of our collective sins. Jesus taught a philosophy of loving, caring, and giving and not judging. It is my understanding that Jesus and God are both the same people (the trinity), thus what Jesus taught, God wanted. It seems to me that our God is no longer vengeful. If you want to believe in an angry, vengeful God then that's your business.

It also seems to me that if Georgetown didn't like the idea of covering up the name Jesus, then they would have put a stop to it.

I have a feeling they covered it up because they didn't want people saying they purposely did the speech in front of the word Jesus so that we make a connection between Obama and Jesus. That's just my opinion. I think yall would have been pissed off either way.

Obama is not a Muslim.


I also find it comical that y'all find Muslims to be bad people. I have three Muslim professors and they are all brilliant people who have never said or done anything questionable.

(04-17-2009 10:58 AM)canewton Wrote:  Obama is not a Muslim.


I also find it comical that y'all find Muslims to be bad people. I have three Muslim professors and they are all brilliant people who have never said or done anything questionable.

Yeah and had these people been raised in other cultures and indoctrinated to be muslims like they were christian, they would be muslim.

Yes, the flipside of the coin is people would say Bush is what happens when people are raised with Christianity and vote biblically.

I find it amusing that religions say if you don't believe in this then you're going to hell. If thats the case then Christians or any other religion that shares this view are basically casting the overwhelming majority of people to ever walk this earth into something far worse than the holocaust.

Do unto your neighbor

(04-17-2009 10:24 AM)oasispirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:13 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

oasispirate Wrote:You just told me that there is a high likelihood I'm going to hell.

Uhhh, no I didn't. What are you talking about?

I said IF Christians turned out to be right and Atheists are wrong, there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true. Then I said that both sides' methods of trying to convert the other are repelling. I didn't say anything about you.

Which is essentially the you're going to hell "Pachals Wager" argument. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Like I said one of the major issues I have is that Christians tend to know very little about their faith yet will absolutely fight tooth and nail for it.

Very few Christians even know the first bible was written in Greek, the certain books of the bible were arbitrarly tossed out, what top theologians interpretations of the bible are (again most tend to accept their local poorly educated pastors literal version), or that bible was written many years after Jesus' death.

The onus of truth is absolutely on any religion. If I say there is a fire breathing monster that lives in the great lakes it is on me to provide proof for that claim.

BTW it's absolutely ridiculous to say if you believe in something then you're going to heaven, if you don't then you're going to hell. For starters you cannot force yourself to believe anything. You either buy it or you don't. I have a hard time believing any just god would need such belief to validate him/herself or want to close the door on the cynics.

You obviously either lack reading comprehension skills, or are trying to put words in my mouth to help your argument. There is no onus on anyone to prove what they believe. Everyone is free to believe what they will. If you don't like what someone else believes...too bad. That's your problem. If they are wrong, that's their problem.

I think the argument of "there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true" is unfair. It's not as if God is going to let atheists get off if they pretend to believe in God. It seems to me that atheists don't believe in God for the same reason you believe in God- because they genuinely believe they are right. If worshiping someone you don't actually believe in seems disingenuous to me, then why would it not seem that way to God?

It also has always seemed weird to me that we condemn Atheists and Agnostics for not believing what we believe, no matter how good a person they actually are. In my opinion God judges a person by how good a life they lived not by if they believed in him or not. Why would God punish those who don't believe but allow people who sinned a lot in Heaven just because they did believe.

(04-17-2009 10:48 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 09:33 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:27 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:19 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  Obama is a squirl that should not be respected by anyone. After 43 presidents we finally managed to put an unqualified toad in office.

Yeh...being Obama is in office for less than 100 days

James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Warren G. Harding, Millard Fillmore and George W. Bush was SOOOOOO much better

Pirate, You could literally pull someone off the street at random and get more talent than this guy has. The guy got into harvard through an affirmative action program. Hell, they will not even release his college records. We cannot afford these silly utopian dreamers who could mess up a wet dream. This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol.

Really, you rather have some "regular joe" in the White House? I don't. I would like to see proof on the affirmative action for Harvard. I've never heard of that statement. Plus, he didn't become editor of the Harvard Law Review because of his race. Has anyone even asked about his college record? Why does it even matter? What does this statement even mean "This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol."? Are you referring to our Republic? I don't understand. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you're striking out.

Pirate, My point was a 'regular Joe' would be an improvement over Obama. Obama is not smart. He gives a good speech as long as he has a telepromter, otherwise he stammers and stutters around. He is not going to make it because he is in over his head. I think he was an affirmative action black, otherwise they would release is transcripts.
He is a utopian dreamer who is going to end up costing the nation trillions of dollars and a major standard of living hit.

(04-17-2009 11:16 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:24 AM)oasispirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:13 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

oasispirate Wrote:You just told me that there is a high likelihood I'm going to hell.

Uhhh, no I didn't. What are you talking about?

I said IF Christians turned out to be right and Atheists are wrong, there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true. Then I said that both sides' methods of trying to convert the other are repelling. I didn't say anything about you.

This is what you said "If Christians are wrong...oh well, everyone's just worm food, and that's the end of it. If Atheists are wrong, however, well, they have a slightly bigger down side."

Which is essentially Pachal's Wager and basically using religion as an insurance policy.

Even with that belief there is no gray area. God and afterlife could possibly be exclusive of on another. It's possible there could be a God and no afterlife, however it's possible there could be no god and an afterlife.

You're right though I am cool if people believe what they believe. However when religion drives public policy, focuses debates on BS issues, and impedes the advancement of knowledge then the gloves comeoff.

It also hurts us that anyone with announcing they are a christian can basically never run for a major public in this country.




Which is essentially the you're going to hell "Pachals Wager" argument. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Like I said one of the major issues I have is that Christians tend to know very little about their faith yet will absolutely fight tooth and nail for it.

Very few Christians even know the first bible was written in Greek, the certain books of the bible were arbitrarly tossed out, what top theologians interpretations of the bible are (again most tend to accept their local poorly educated pastors literal version), or that bible was written many years after Jesus' death.

The onus of truth is absolutely on any religion. If I say there is a fire breathing monster that lives in the great lakes it is on me to provide proof for that claim.

BTW it's absolutely ridiculous to say if you believe in something then you're going to heaven, if you don't then you're going to hell. For starters you cannot force yourself to believe anything. You either buy it or you don't. I have a hard time believing any just god would need such belief to validate him/herself or want to close the door on the cynics.

You obviously either lack reading comprehension skills, or are trying to put words in my mouth to help your argument. There is no onus on anyone to prove what they believe. Everyone is free to believe what they will. If you don't like what someone else believes...too bad. That's your problem. If they are wrong, that's their problem.

(04-17-2009 11:35 AM)canewton Wrote:  I think the argument of "there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true" is unfair. It's not as if God is going to let atheists get off if they pretend to believe in God. It seems to me that atheists don't believe in God for the same reason you believe in God- because they genuinely believe they are right. If worshiping someone you don't actually believe in seems disingenuous to me, then why would it not seem that way to God?

It also has always seemed weird to me that we condemn Atheists and Agnostics for not believing what we believe, no matter how good a person they actually are. In my opinion God judges a person by how good a life they lived not by if they believed in him or not. Why would God punish those who don't believe but allow people who sinned a lot in Heaven just because they did believe.

The argument against atheism is that it implies something came from nothing and that cannot be.

(04-17-2009 11:39 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:48 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 09:33 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:27 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:19 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  Obama is a squirl that should not be respected by anyone. After 43 presidents we finally managed to put an unqualified toad in office.

Yeh...being Obama is in office for less than 100 days

James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Warren G. Harding, Millard Fillmore and George W. Bush was SOOOOOO much better

Pirate, You could literally pull someone off the street at random and get more talent than this guy has. The guy got into harvard through an affirmative action program. Hell, they will not even release his college records. We cannot afford these silly utopian dreamers who could mess up a wet dream. This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol.

Really, you rather have some "regular joe" in the White House? I don't. I would like to see proof on the affirmative action for Harvard. I've never heard of that statement. Plus, he didn't become editor of the Harvard Law Review because of his race. Has anyone even asked about his college record? Why does it even matter? What does this statement even mean "This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol."? Are you referring to our Republic? I don't understand. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you're striking out.

Pirate, My point was a 'regular Joe' would be an improvement over Obama. Obama is not smart. He gives a good speech as long as he has a telepromter, otherwise he stammers and stutters around. He is not going to make it because he is in over his head. I think he was an affirmative action black, otherwise they would release is transcripts.
He is a utopian dreamer who is going to end up costing the nation trillions of dollars and a major standard of living hit.

While you might be right, unfortunately the republican party has lost all credibility when it comes to spending. Give me a legitimate fiscally conservative/socially liberal candidate/party......that'll be my guy.

(04-17-2009 11:41 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 11:35 AM)canewton Wrote:  I think the argument of "there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true" is unfair. It's not as if God is going to let atheists get off if they pretend to believe in God. It seems to me that atheists don't believe in God for the same reason you believe in God- because they genuinely believe they are right. If worshiping someone you don't actually believe in seems disingenuous to me, then why would it not seem that way to God?

It also has always seemed weird to me that we condemn Atheists and Agnostics for not believing what we believe, no matter how good a person they actually are. In my opinion God judges a person by how good a life they lived not by if they believed in him or not. Why would God punish those who don't believe but allow people who sinned a lot in Heaven just because they did believe.

The argument against atheism is that it implies something came from nothing and that cannot be.

Perhaps, however that doesn't mean our concept of God is way off base. Then becomes the question if God is the creator, who/what created God :)?

I'm not sure of the exact Stephen Hawking quote but it's bascially, things are just the way the are.

Here is a good one "We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special. "

(04-17-2009 11:39 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 10:48 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 09:33 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:27 AM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 08:19 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  Obama is a squirl that should not be respected by anyone. After 43 presidents we finally managed to put an unqualified toad in office.

Yeh...being Obama is in office for less than 100 days

James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Warren G. Harding, Millard Fillmore and George W. Bush was SOOOOOO much better

Pirate, You could literally pull someone off the street at random and get more talent than this guy has. The guy got into harvard through an affirmative action program. Hell, they will not even release his college records. We cannot afford these silly utopian dreamers who could mess up a wet dream. This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol.

Really, you rather have some "regular joe" in the White House? I don't. I would like to see proof on the affirmative action for Harvard. I've never heard of that statement. Plus, he didn't become editor of the Harvard Law Review because of his race. Has anyone even asked about his college record? Why does it even matter? What does this statement even mean "This is what happens when you have a Republican form of government where half the population is raised on rap music and American Idol."? Are you referring to our Republic? I don't understand. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you're striking out.

Pirate, My point was a 'regular Joe' would be an improvement over Obama. Obama is not smart. He gives a good speech as long as he has a telepromter, otherwise he stammers and stutters around. He is not going to make it because he is in over his head. I think he was an affirmative action black, otherwise they would release is transcripts.
He is a utopian dreamer who is going to end up costing the nation trillions of dollars and a major standard of living hit.

Yeah, they just let idiots teach Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago School of Law. The right idea is to cut spending, raise interest rates and cut taxes.

(04-17-2009 11:41 AM)TopCoog Wrote:  

(04-17-2009 11:35 AM)canewton Wrote:  I think the argument of "there is a bigger downside for Atheists than if the opposite is true" is unfair. It's not as if God is going to let atheists get off if they pretend to believe in God. It seems to me that atheists don't believe in God for the same reason you believe in God- because they genuinely believe they are right. If worshiping someone you don't actually believe in seems disingenuous to me, then why would it not seem that way to God?

It also has always seemed weird to me that we condemn Atheists and Agnostics for not believing what we believe, no matter how good a person they actually are. In my opinion God judges a person by how good a life they lived not by if they believed in him or not. Why would God punish those who don't believe but allow people who sinned a lot in Heaven just because they did believe.

The argument against atheism is that it implies something came from nothing and that cannot be.

Then who created God?