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GM and Chrysler to merge?
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Machiavelli Wrote:Without unions we wouldn't have a middle class. Maybe that's what you guys are after. That's why I get so pissed when a union worker votes Republican. Here Republicans are trying.... dreaming of cutting members nuts off and their f'in stupid enough to vote for them.

Pro football, basketball, baseball and hockey players are in unions, they'e hardly middle class, and when they don't have their way they take their ball and go home - screwing the real middle class that make their living at the games they play in. Actors are in unions as are directors and radio personalities.

As for the middle class there are teachers, prison guards, firemen, policemen, government workers, etc who are all in unions and make demands on what they do, how they do it and how much they get paid for doing it. In my city alone the average policeman makes over $100k and can get a full pension after 20 years. Of all the people mentioned above, how many get fired for cause? Very few because the unions work hard to protect even those who are misfits. One of the reasons the public school system sucks is because you can't get rid of substandard teachers.

As for the US auto industry, everyone knows the unions have put a severe drag on the Big 3 for years.
10-11-2008 11:08 AM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Machiavelli Wrote:Totally amazing what we do to sell out our fellow man. They even take courses in it. Management makes sure they have their parachutes. Screw they guy who actually does the job.
We don't take courses in selling out our fellow man. We take courses on how to run a company where the workers feel there is no need for a union. Part of those courses include some of the nasty and horrible things done to companies and even fellow union members by the unions.

Did you know that the unions can take from you money that will be spent on things you might not agree with and you have ZERO input? They can levee special fines on you for breaking union rules. Speak bad about the union - bang, $500 fine. The union goes on strike? Easy, they'll pay you $50.00 per day to walk the picket line for 8 hours and if you don't show up you'll get fined. Being in a union is like living in Cuba - you just do what you're told or you'll end up in trouble.
10-11-2008 11:31 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #23
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Unions made this country GREAT!!! They've been under attack by wolves who want to see power and wealth accumulated by the few. Congrats wolves!!! It seems to be working, but CHANGE is coming and it can't come soon enough. Trickle Down doesn't work. Painting good hard working Union members with the brush of a few malcontents is easy. You can get rid of a bad worker. It's easy. It just takes a little due diligence and for management to get off their fat f'in asses and actually earn their paycheck.
10-11-2008 11:44 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #24
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
RobertN Wrote:Ever think that if the US car companies actually made quality cars they wouldn't have to "cut the union's nuts off and shove them down their collective throats"? The failure is company wide not one side or the others.

GM makes very good cars. But their union obligations are killing them. Same with the major airlines. The pension and benefit guarantees alone are in the billions.

Toyota has no unions, pays their workers very well and makes money hand over fist, even in down economies.

Unions are antiquated relics of the past.
They are still needed. If you had nothing to counteract the free market, salaries wouuld plunge,safety standards would drop and benefits would be non-existent. Not having unions would be like not having regulations on banks-and we have seen how successful that has been. Having said that, there could be some changes to unions to update them to make them more up to date with the times.
10-11-2008 12:14 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
RobertN Wrote:Not having unions would be like not having regulations on banks-and we have seen how successful that has been.

OK, I've heard the mantra about our problems resulting from not regulating banks long enough. I've got three questions.

1. Exactly what regulations that were not in place would you have liked to have seen in place?
2. Exactly what would those regulations have accomplished, and how?
3. What unintended consequences would have resulted from such regulations, and how would you propose to have dealt with them?

I've got my own ideas in this area, which I'll be happy to share, but I would be interested in yours.
10-11-2008 12:20 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
RobertN Wrote:They are still needed. If you had nothing to counteract the free market, salaries wouuld plunge,safety standards would drop and benefits would be non-existent. Not having unions would be like not having regulations on banks-and we have seen how successful that has been. Having said that, there could be some changes to unions to update them to make them more up to date with the times.

What a load.....Free market??? You're saying union members are worth more than the market determines them to be? If you can say that then you can't complain about salaries of management.

Safety is in the hands of OSHA not the unions, any employee in any business can call OSHA - it doens't require a union.

"Benefits would be non-existant," Another load. Not only do most non-union businesses provide benefits for workers some states require them. And if we're going to force employers to pay for benefits then why is Obama coming up with a socialized medical system when the employers are going to provide that insurance? If a person doesn't like the salary, benefits and working conditions of a job they are free to leave it and find another - this is, after all, America.

Back in the 1930's unions served a useful purpose. Today, with the government crawling up the butts of employers, unions are no longer needed. The ONLY people who HAVE to have unions are union management.
10-11-2008 12:26 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
RobertN Wrote:They are still needed.

No they're not.

Quote:If you had nothing to counteract the free market, salaries wouuld plunge,

The free market sets wages. Only 7% of jobs are union jobs. The other 93% of jobs in this country aren't union and most pay very good wages. This isn't the industrial revolution.

Quote:safety standards would drop

No they wouldn't. Unions have nothing to do with safety standards anymore. There are laws and regulations governing worker safety. You eliminate unions those don't disappear with them.

Quote:and benefits would be non-existent.

Wrong. Companies can't compete if they don't offer sound wages because they can't get skilled workers. The majority of companies aren't unionized, are benefits non-existent for 93% of the work force that isn't unionized? That would no. I don't work for a union shop and have very good pay and very good benefits. Unions don't ensure that anymore, the market does. Unions just ensure that their workers enjoy far and away more benefit than the average worker. And the expense for it is killing american automakers.

It's time you liberals come into the 21st century.
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2008 12:36 PM by Ninerfan1.)
10-11-2008 12:30 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #28
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
RobertN Wrote:They are still needed.

No they're not.

Quote:If you had nothing to counteract the free market, salaries wouuld plunge,

The free market sets wages. Only 7% of jobs are union jobs. The other 93% of jobs in this country aren't union and most pay very good wages. This isn't the industrial revolution.

Quote:safety standards would drop

No they wouldn't. Unions have nothing to do with safety standards anymore. There are laws and regulations governing worker safety. You eliminate unions those don't disappear with them.

Quote:and benefits would be non-existent.

Wrong. Companies can't compete if they don't offer sound wages because they can't get skilled workers. The majority of companies aren't unionized, are benefits non-existent for 93% of the work force that isn't unionized? That would no. I don't work for a union shop and have very good pay and very good benefits. Unions don't ensure that anymore, the market does. Unions just ensure that their workers enjoy far and away more benefit than the average worker. And the expense for it is killing american automakers.

It's time you liberals come into the 21st century.

If you have ever worked in a union shop..and I have...you will understand that most shops have workers in them that could not keep a job without the damn union reps. covering their asses. I've seen people sleeping on the job, being intoxicated, physically assaulting other employees and even gambling in the open. Things that are grounds for immediate dismissal in non union companies are almost always given second chances.

There are of course good workers in union shops that work hard and care. I worked with some of the finest workers in America in a union shop...but...The bad apples are very hard to get rid of...particularly if they have managed to work for 10yrs or have relatives in the shop. Its frustrating to the good employees, but they cant do much about it.

In addition...The amount of product produced per man hour is outrageous in a union shop compared to a non union shop. The amount of job specialization the unions force upon the management leads to lots of wasted labor. Hell..You cant change a damn light bulb without calling an electrician. I've seen people standing around waiting on a maintenance worker to do something that in a non union shop...would have been taken care of without even calling maintenance. You wonder why a car cost so much?
10-11-2008 02:37 PM
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Zipfanatik Offline
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Post: #29
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
jh Wrote:I just checked Consumer Reports, and out of roughly 35 cars rated best in class, for categories ranging from fuel efficiency to fun to drive, a grand total of one American car company was represented. The Chevy Silverado 1500 won for best full size pick up, a category where they are practically having to give cars away right now. Union obligations don't help (if only people would die right after they retire like they're supposed to - it'd help with Social Security too) but I have to think that's the biggest problem right there. The quality of the American cars just don't match up.

+1.

The American car companies will die because they refuse to compete on quality. GM will put out the 1st electric car; if the market wants it then Japan will come in and produce better ones and take market share. As public transit usage increases, there will be less market for cars overall. The 'Big 3' should start looking to merge with Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
10-11-2008 04:21 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Machiavelli Wrote:Totally amazing what we do to sell out our fellow man. They even take courses in it. Management makes sure they have their parachutes. Screw they guy who actually does the job.

I would like to talk about this for a moment or two. First of all, have you ever been behind the scenes of how unions interact with management? I have. More on that later.

The courses we took, and there were many, first taught us to keep the employees happy, i.e., fair pay and working conditions, open lines of communication, respect, etc. A happy employee has no need for a union.

The 2nd thing they taught us was how to recognize signs of possible union activity: employees no longer talk around mgmt, people who rarely associate with each other are now grouped together, there could be unhappiness among the employees who do not wish to join a union, etc.

The 3rd thing they taught us was how there are no rules to what a union can say to an employee - they can make empty promises and not be held accountable and we were given many examples.

The last thing we learned was the strategy of contract negotiations and what unions almost universally ask for upon their first discussions with mgmt. Naturally, they look out for themselves first.

Here's what happened during my most recent involvement with negotiating a union contract with the CWA who wanted to represent about 400 people:

The union needs to have several employees involved with the negotiations and the employees vote on who they want at the table. This is nothing more than a popularity contest and doesn't necessarily mean they are the sharpest pencils in the box.

The first thing the union wants is direct withholding of union dues. This costs nothing to the company but the company naturally wants something in return. The union has nothing to give, the employees have to give something up, usually some sort of benefit.

Score so far:
Union +1
Company +1
Employee -1

The 2nd thing the union wants is to have all employees included in the union and not just the ones who voted for it - they want the dues of all the employees. The company wants this to happen so there's no bickering between union and non-union employees but they want something in return. Again the union has nothing to give up so the employee has to.

Score so far:
Union +2
Company +2
Employee -2

The unions are smart, they know companies have budgets that usually can't be increased. For them to get more for their members they have to bundle things differently. They usually cede on health and medical benefits by having lower coverages, higher co-pays and increased employee costs. In return the company will take some of the money saved on benefits and give it to the employees in the form of raises. This allows the union to claim a victory and all they did was move money around rather than increase it. The down side is that the employee feels a little richer but when he needs the benefits they cost far more than the raises they received.

Score so far:
Union +3
Company +3
Employees -3

The unions really can't get anything out of a company that the company doesn't have. It takes from the employees.

The only benefit of a union for the employees is a degree of protection for misfits who should not be working there to begin with.

Another thing that goes against the employee is that is gives the employer zero flexibility in bending the rules to accommodate and employee who may be having issues outside of work. An example of this might be if an employee has an ill spouse and needs to miss work to take care of her or the kids. If that employee goes beyond the allotted number of allowable days off he gets written up and then fired. Same thing for arriving to work a few minutes late - late is late and the rules need to be applied. Any compassion the employer might feel to the employee goes out the window because if the rule is bent then the new rule becomes law for all employees from that moment on. In fact, by giving an employee a break the union can file a grievence against the employer.

Finally, and I left a lot out of this, is that the employee can not directly interact with the company on anything other than issues directly related to what they do on the job. If an employee feels screwed he can't go to HR, he has to go to the union and the union has no obligation to push his issue. In fact, the union may come to mgmt with two employee issues and bargain away one of them to get the other and the one who loses out has no recourse.

During the negotiations an astute employee would actually see and hear with his own eyes and ears his job being negotiated away from him and to the union but the brainwashing the union gives the employees prevents them from seeing this. We used to give raises averaging from 3 to 8% depending on the employee. As said before the union negotiated a pay increase (at the cost of a loss of health benefits) and a 2% yearly raise and called it a victory and the sheep were happy with it. That 2% raise, by the way, was offset by the cost of the dues the employees had to pay and yet they were unable to see it. For the first year of the contract the employees saw virtually no raise. When the employees finally feel a sense they're getting screwed the union will blame management and that's when the hatred will start. Slick.
10-11-2008 04:31 PM
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West Is the Best Offline
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Post: #31
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
Fo Shizzle Wrote:
West Is the Best Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:CNBC reporting that talks are in the works for a merger...more to come


Exploring a merger. Big difference.

GM does not need Chryler's problems. I look for a foreign company to step in as Chrysler has explored options with foreign companies. Maybe Renault, Tata, Chery or Geely.

CNBC still saying this in not BS. They say even though GM has just said that talks have been suspended due to economic conditions...that in fact they are still ongoing. Insiders report this has been going on for over a month....We will see.

Exploring a merger and merger talks are two differerent items, as spelled in the article you referenced. Exploring a meregr does not mean mereger negotiations.
10-11-2008 05:34 PM
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West Is the Best Offline
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Post: #32
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
In some crazy way I could see it work. Both companies have discussed dropping divisions.

The new GM lines under said showrooms:

Chevrolet
Buick/Saturn/GMC
Cadillac/Saab
Dodge/Jeep

Drop Chrysler and Pontiac lines.

SAAB has nice products about to hit the show rooms that have good markup for GM. SAAB and Cadillac share platforms.

Chrysler name plate has lost value. Pontiac not far behind

Jeep and Dodge Trucks still have good recognition.

This would eliminate a drastic number of dealers that are not need and strengthen the remaining dealers.
10-11-2008 05:44 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
The companies probably want to become big enough that we can't allow them to fail, so they'll get a bailout too.
10-12-2008 03:02 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: GM and Chrysler to merge?
NIU007 Wrote:The companies probably want to become big enough that we can't allow them to fail, so they'll get a bailout too.

Nah, get rid of the unions (or get them to renegotiate a package similar to what Japanese workers get), renegotiate retiree health and pension packages, get rid of the big SUVs, cut executive salaries, renegotiate with suppliers, restructure debt and ride out the crisis and they'll be fine.....hopefully.
10-12-2008 03:10 PM
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