omnicarrier Wrote:

DawgNBama Wrote:BullNTX,
Here is a factor you might want to consider. Florida and Florida State want absolutely, positively nothing to do with USF. Nothing at all. CJL can kick, scream, bite, curse, etc. all he wants, but he will never get a game with those two that he wants on HIS terms. Also, remember that Florida and Florida State have a LOT of political pull within the state of Florida. If it seems like that USF may become a threat to Florida or Florida State, the big two will ensure that some way or another the Miami-USF series WILL be discontinued, IMO.

Well, the Gators have agreed to play them. Granted its at Gainesville, but if they truly "absolutely, positively" wanted "nothing to do with USF" - scheduling a series with them is an odd way to show it.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil,
The Gators series with USF was done back when USF was still in C-USA and was struggling to make a name for itself. You and I both know that schedules are made several years in advance, and the Gators didn't view USF as much of a threat back then. They do now, IMO.

DawgNBama Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one). The answer is pretty simple to us. We have a long term series with UM starting up and no games with UCF for the forseeable future. Possibly very long future, if you read between the lines of CJL coachspeak.

A tad bit off the subject here, but if I'm CJL, I'm going to be looking for a very high echelon BCS school to coach at in the near future. Have USF win the BE for a few years to prove I'm not a "fluke," and then coach somewhere like Southern California or Michigan. Building a football program from the ground up has to be a very tiring and exhausting process. Who knows how many times CJL have given up things he wanted to do to go do an event that helped USF get its name out in the press and in the community, or has had to give up his personal time to do promotional activities for USF. No doubt CJL has worked his butt off, and he has to feel like some sense of entitlement for all the work he has done. Put yourself in CJL's shoes, BullfanNTX. Which would you rather do: coach at a school that only has had football for maybe a little over twenty years, and only BCS for three or four of those years, or coach at a school that has had football for over ninety years, and has been a BCS program since the inception of the BCS? If I'm CJL, I have to go with the latter. The only reason CJL hasn't done that yet is that he has a personal goal he wants to accomplish at USF, IMO Once he accomplishes it, he's leaving.

As for the rest of your statements, I don't believe they even merit a comment because they are so immature to me. Alabama, Auburn,and even UAB have all been trying to sell the exact same stuff to my Troy Trojans what you're trying to sell to the UCF fans. That dog won't hunt.

Totally disagree with that notion, Dawg. Of all the coaches in the BE who could bolt for a 'bigger/better' job, Leavitt is the least likely. Isn't he from Tampa? He's at a large FL school in a BCS conference, he's sitting pretty where he is.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:From the point of view of the rest of the Big East schools, though, what USF wants will not trump what seven other schools want. The Big East has been through enough of being held back due to the selfish interests of one member (see Miami and Notre Dame at various points and sometimes together) and the day a split happens should be the day that brings all of that to an end.

If coaches like Randy Edsall, Greg Schiano, or Dave Wannstedt can get more Florida recruits by being able to guarantee them a game near their home every year, instead of every other year, than you better believe they would push their President to vote in UCF. The same thing goes for basketball, baseball, softball, soccer, and various other coaches. Big East interests will prevail.

Krocker
I never said that what USF would want would determine what Big East does. All I and other Bulls fans have stated is that the Big East benefits and needs a STRONG presence in florida and that is not accomplished by having two mediocre teams in our state that are considered below FSU,UF and UM because all that does is paint the Big East as below the SEC and ACC.
So it is in the Big East best interest for USF to develop to a position to be compared to those other three because that would be the big attention getter for the conference in our state.
UCF is a good candidate and the way things are they arent going anywhere so the BE has the luxury to wait and add them whenever they decide to. So once again the BE did not add USF to be a second rate power in the state,they need them to become as powerful as Miami was when they were part of Big East.
As for CJL leaving USF. Well Im not saying it wouldnt happen but the reality is that if you know CJL football is first and foremost he relishes the fact that he is from Tampa area and has built the program from scratch. If USF wasnt in a BCS conference then CJL would leave but his goal is a NC and he believes is possible now that USF in BE. At USF he is king if he went to USC or Michigan he would have to answer to alumni and others in the program that have been there before. That doesnt go well with CJL. Its his way or the highway. I dont see him going anywhere.

Crimsonelf Wrote:Totally disagree with that notion, Dawg. Of all the coaches in the BE who could bolt for a 'bigger/better' job, Leavitt is the least likely. Isn't he from Tampa? He's at a large FL school in a BCS conference, he's sitting pretty where he is.

Wanny is the least likely of anyone to leave for another college job. He is home at his alma mater and has repeatedly said Pitt will be his last coaching job. If the conference continues its ascent, our coaches will think of the schools as destination jobs, not stepping stones. Especially if we start winning championships. Right now, the coaches that will be looked at with another good season will be Edsell, Kelly, and Leavitt. That isn't to say that they will go. Every year somebody call Jamie Dixon to try to lure him away, but he doesn't listen. Jamie has a great job at Pitt. He is paid competitively, he plays in the best conference in the country, and he has the full support of the administration. As the conference improves, the FB coaches will think like that as well.

DawgNBama Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

DawgNBama Wrote:BullNTX,
Here is a factor you might want to consider. Florida and Florida State want absolutely, positively nothing to do with USF. Nothing at all. CJL can kick, scream, bite, curse, etc. all he wants, but he will never get a game with those two that he wants on HIS terms. Also, remember that Florida and Florida State have a LOT of political pull within the state of Florida. If it seems like that USF may become a threat to Florida or Florida State, the big two will ensure that some way or another the Miami-USF series WILL be discontinued, IMO.

Well, the Gators have agreed to play them. Granted its at Gainesville, but if they truly "absolutely, positively" wanted "nothing to do with USF" - scheduling a series with them is an odd way to show it.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil,
The Gators series with USF was done back when USF was still in C-USA and was struggling to make a name for itself. You and I both know that schedules are made several years in advance, and the Gators didn't view USF as much of a threat back then. They do now, IMO.

USF signed a 2 yr deal with UF back in the Fall of 2002 for a 2 games series to be played in Gainesville in 2008 and 2009.

Several years ago...USF asked UF to moved the 2008 game to 2010...and move the 2009 game to 2014.

DawgNBama Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one). The answer is pretty simple to us. We have a long term series with UM starting up and no games with UCF for the forseeable future. Possibly very long future, if you read between the lines of CJL coachspeak.

A tad bit off the subject here, but if I'm CJL, I'm going to be looking for a very high echelon BCS school to coach at in the near future. Have USF win the BE for a few years to prove I'm not a "fluke," and then coach somewhere like Southern California or Michigan. Building a football program from the ground up has to be a very tiring and exhausting process. Who knows how many times CJL have given up things he wanted to do to go do an event that helped USF get its name out in the press and in the community, or has had to give up his personal time to do promotional activities for USF. No doubt CJL has worked his butt off, and he has to feel like some sense of entitlement for all the work he has done. Put yourself in CJL's shoes, BullfanNTX. Which would you rather do: coach at a school that only has had football for maybe a little over twenty years, and only BCS for three or four of those years, or coach at a school that has had football for over ninety years, and has been a BCS program since the inception of the BCS? If I'm CJL, I have to go with the latter. The only reason CJL hasn't done that yet is that he has a personal goal he wants to accomplish at USF, IMO Once he accomplishes it, he's leaving.

As for the rest of your statements, I don't believe they even merit a comment because they are so immature to me. Alabama, Auburn,and even UAB have all been trying to sell the exact same stuff to my Troy Trojans what you're trying to sell to the UCF fans. That dog won't hunt.

As someone else stated...Leavitt might be one of the few coaches that never moves to "greener" pastures...as he can make almost as much $$$ as he wants...living in his hometown area...and being the HC of a team located in FLA (huge advantage).

He is basically the "founder" of the USF program...and after a certain level of $$$$$...it all becomes monopoly money...and some folks will be "satisfied" earning $2 Million living/working where they want to live/work.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:From the point of view of the rest of the Big East schools, though, what USF wants will not trump what seven other schools want.

Really? USF can't just 'bully' the rest of the BigEast to make it a USF-centric league? Imagine that! ;^)

USF may only have one vote, but if it decides that its interests are best served by attempting to block UCiF's invitation it could lean on some pretty good relationships at UL and UC that could potentially derail UCF's admission. That would force the conference to listen to USF and consider its reasoning.

I'm not saying that this is going to happen, but don't disregard that USF has an ability to influence the direction of the league. We are not some federated member with no rights. Again, I would be curious to see what USF does, b/c while many UCF fans prefer to seemingly forget, USF was actually working in the background to help UCF get a football-only membership back in 2003. Is that still the case? I don't know. There was a lot of acrimony between the previous athletic department administrations but that is almost a non-factor today. It is troubling that UCF's coaching staff continues to call out USF at alumni functions and media, particularly George O'Leary. That just seems petty and bush league, and it certainly can't help.

BTW....USF would not suddenly wilt and go away if UCF enters the league. If that happens, USF and UCF will instantly have a rivalry that rivals the Pitt-WVU tilts and the close travel would certainly be welcomed. However, on the football field it really comes down to coaching, recruiting and player development which is something that USF has won hands down against UCF since we started our football program a little over 10 years ago.

Shannon Panther Wrote:Wanny is the least likely of anyone to leave for another college job. He is home at his alma mater and has repeatedly said Pitt will be his last coaching job. If the conference continues its ascent, our coaches will think of the schools as destination jobs, not stepping stones. Especially if we start winning championships. Right now, the coaches that will be looked at with another good season will be Edsell, Kelly, and Leavitt. That isn't to say that they will go. Every year somebody call Jamie Dixon to try to lure him away, but he doesn't listen. Jamie has a great job at Pitt. He is paid competitively, he plays in the best conference in the country, and he has the full support of the administration. As the conference improves, the FB coaches will think like that as well.

Very true, and that's happening now. Kelly turned down GT, Nebraska and UCLA, while Edsal turned down GT as well. And didn't Leavitt turn down K-State a couple years ago?

Knight Light, I've gotta call BS. Like the first thing that comes to mind when dealing with your accounts is discussing the USF-UM series. And if it is, that only confirms the obsession many UCF fans have toward USF.

Recuriting, Travell, Baseball, Weather, Bowls & potential 6 million TV market thru center of Fla. I think USF will have tough time getting other BE schools to back them up, BE will make conseccions to USF for 8-0 vote.

templefootballfan Wrote:Recuriting, Travell, Baseball, Weather, Bowls & potential 6 million TV market thru center of Fla. I think USF will have tough time getting other BE schools to back them up, BE will make conseccions to USF for 8-0 vote.

Not so. First of all, the BE is in absolutely no hurry to expand/split, regardless of what message board posters want. The league is pretty healthy right now, so no immediate reason to rock the boat. They will take a wait a see attitude towards expansion for a good while, imo. Second, you can count on USF voting no. The AD and CJL have made that clear, and they will do whatever Leavitt wants. I also think you're shortchanging how much influence USF would have with other members. No we certainly are far from running the league, but that doesn't mean other conf. members are going to totally dismiss USF's concerns. If we have concerns, other members will listen, and possibly consider schools (Memphis?), that nobody has any problems with, if an expansion were ever to occur. But, at the end of the day, if UCF gets in, great for them, I don't have anything against them at all, they have a good program. I just see no benefit to USF, despite what others say, particularly expansion advocates.

This attitude is Pitt and Penn State all over again. Is there anyone among the fanbases of the older Big East teams who does not now wish that one more Catholic school had voted in favor of adding the Nittany Lions to this conference in 1982? These two Florida schools are on a much smaller scale right now, obviously, but we have all seen this type of act before. We also found out about more of the same kind of attitude, after the fact, when we learned that Miami would not even let the league talk about USF in 2001 or 2002 when Mike Tranghese first started trying to get some discussion going on the Bulls.

The simple fact of the matter is USF fans are approaching this whole UCF thing emotionally based on their interactions with opposing fans either in person or on internet message boards. What is being overlooked is the fact that there is a whole broad range of factors to be considered for all of the involved institutions rather than one rankled fanbase. As for Jim Leavitt calling the shots at USF - I have just two words for you - Joe Paterno. No myopic football coach should ever have free reign at any school. That is what the President and AD are paid to do. Some people are just too eager for history to repeat itself.

Krocker, as impressed as I am with UCF, there is no comparison between their program and Penn State’s.

Jose_Jalapeno_on_a_Stick Wrote:Krocker, as impressed as I am with UCF, there is no comparison between their program and Penn State’s.

I was not comparing UCF to Penn State. I was comparing the animosity between USF and UCF, or at least their fanbases since none of us really knows where the two administrations stand, to the bitter hatred between Pitt and Penn State in the 1980s that played a role in helping put the Big East in the predicament we all "enjoy" today.

Krocker and you are comparing Penn state and Pitt both of thode programs were WELL established and national contenders at that time. USF is NOT there at that time.
So if you think it would benefit ANY of the Big East programs to have TWO programs that would be looked at as LOWER class members by the Big three in our state and nationally and that would then struggle under the shadow of those three while battling each other for recruits then I would say go ahead and add them.
I have no problem with the Big East eventually adding UCF I just dont think that until USF is able to get itself nationally and in our state established is a good idea.
So once again TWO different issues at two different times.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:

Jose_Jalapeno_on_a_Stick Wrote:Krocker, as impressed as I am with UCF, there is no comparison between their program and Penn State’s.

I was not comparing UCF to Penn State. I was comparing the animosity between USF and UCF, or at least their fanbases since none of us really knows where the two administrations stand, to the bitter hatred between Pitt and Penn State in the 1980s that played a role in helping put the Big East in the predicament we all "enjoy" today.

Again, Pitt's administration wasn't against an all-sports league. They were partners with PSU in the Eastern 8 with them from 76-79, until Penn State slipped a note under the commissioner's door to let them know they were withdrawing membership.

What Pitt's administration was against was a monetary set-up that favored the Nittany Lions over them in football, but that shared the basketball revenue equally.

Can't blame them considering the following:

1975 - Pitt 15/13, PSU 10/10
1976 - Pitt 1/1 National Champs, PSU unranked
1977 - Pitt 8/7, PSU 5/4
1978 - Pitt unranked, PSU 4/4
1979 - Pitt 7/6, PSU 20/18
1980 - Pitt 2/2, PSU 8/8
1981 - Pitt 4/2, PSU 3/3
1982 - Pitt 10/9, PSU 1/1 National Champs

I know you are aware of the above Krocker, but some others might not be. It was during this time-frame that Penn State attempted to form its all-sports league and push monetary concessions in their favor. A monetary concession they were unwilling to budge from.

Pitt was slightly the better program at that time, and yet Penn State expected the concessions.

It was doomed to failure. And the main reason why it failed was JoePa. He presented a poison pill no one was willing to accept.

Let's please move on.

Cheers,
Neil

From the way I see it, USF's view of superiority over UCF comes down to three things:

1. Superior Conference- USF has always been in a better conference than UCF. Prior to the shakeup, UCF was in the Atlantic Sun and the MAC while USF was in CUSA. USF was, and still is, in the better position.

2. Dominance in sports- USF has the series advantage in every single sport that keeps track of the wins and losses between USF and UCF. USF has won all three football games, and only one has been close. In basketball, USF leads the all time series with 20-something wins to UCF's 3. The only sport they can claim to be equal with us is baseball, where USF leads by only a game or two out of over 100 games.

3. Facilities- USF had a basketball arena with 10,000 seats, UCF had one with 2,500. UCF had a worn down Citrus Bowl, USF had brand new Raymond James Stadium.

The difference between the two schools was pretty big in athletics. But now, UCF is finally starting to catch up. They have already caught us, and passed us, with regards to facilities (although USF is currently making upgrades of their own). They have joined a decent all-sports conference, one that is at least recognizable to most fans. The gap between the two has gotten much smaller over the past 5 years (although it is hard for USF fans to admit).

I think that it is only a matter of time before USF and UCF end up in the same conference, possibly as soon as 2013. I also think that once they are in the same conference, that it will remain that way for a long time.

Since we are comparing USF and UCF, I want to bring up the comparisons of these two to FAU and FIU. Without going into too much detail, FAU and FIU are well behind USF and UCF in every aspect of athletics, and for the most part, academics as well. It would be a mistake for CUSA to consider those two for admission right now, let alone the Big East. The only possible addition in Florida is UCF, there is no one else after that worth considering.

That said, be careful what you wish for, some of UCF's fans can be a pain, especially the ones online.

BullsFanatic Wrote:From the way I see it, USF's view of superiority over UCF comes down to three things:

1. Superior Conference- USF has always been in a better conference than UCF. Prior to the shakeup, UCF was in the Atlantic Sun and the MAC while USF was in CUSA. USF was, and still is, in the better position.

2. Dominance in sports- USF has the series advantage in every single sport that keeps track of the wins and losses between USF and UCF. USF has won all three football games, and only one has been close. In basketball, USF leads the all time series with 20-something wins to UCF's 3. The only sport they can claim to be equal with us is baseball, where USF leads by only a game or two out of over 100 games.

3. Facilities- USF had a basketball arena with 10,000 seats, UCF had one with 2,500. UCF had a worn down Citrus Bowl, USF had brand new Raymond James Stadium.

The difference between the two schools was pretty big in athletics. But now, UCF is finally starting to catch up. They have already caught us, and passed us, with regards to facilities (although USF is currently making upgrades of their own). They have joined a decent all-sports conference, one that is at least recognizable to most fans. The gap between the two has gotten much smaller over the past 5 years (although it is hard for USF fans to admit).

I think that it is only a matter of time before USF and UCF end up in the same conference, possibly as soon as 2013. I also think that once they are in the same conference, that it will remain that way for a long time.

Since we are comparing USF and UCF, I want to bring up the comparisons of these two to FAU and FIU. Without going into too much detail, FAU and FIU are well behind USF and UCF in every aspect of athletics, and for the most part, academics as well. It would be a mistake for CUSA to consider those two for admission right now, let alone the Big East. The only possible addition in Florida is UCF, there is no one else after that worth considering.

That said, be careful what you wish for, some of UCF's fans can be a pain, especially the ones online.

The main one that we do not want to "give away" is performance on the field. For everything the Knights are doing, they can't keep up with the Bulls on the field. Not to say they can't pull an upset, anyone can. But with the current conference affiliations and BCS status, it would be very difficult for the Knights to put a better on field product on the field on a consistend basis. Sure it can happen occasionally. But the point is, it is USF's interest to keep this advantage until firmly established as a true national power. Anything else would just be giving away an already held advantage.

CyberBull Wrote:

Krocker Krapp Wrote:From the point of view of the rest of the Big East schools, though, what USF wants will not trump what seven other schools want.

Really? USF can't just 'bully' the rest of the BigEast to make it a USF-centric league? Imagine that! ;^)

USF may only have one vote, but if it decides that its interests are best served by attempting to block UCiF's invitation it could lean on some pretty good relationships at UL and UC that could potentially derail UCF's admission. That would force the conference to listen to USF and consider its reasoning.

I'm not saying that this is going to happen, but don't disregard that USF has an ability to influence the direction of the league. We are not some federated member with no rights. Again, I would be curious to see what USF does, b/c while many UCF fans prefer to seemingly forget, USF was actually working in the background to help UCF get a football-only membership back in 2003. Is that still the case? I don't know. There was a lot of acrimony between the previous athletic department administrations but that is almost a non-factor today. It is troubling that UCF's coaching staff continues to call out USF at alumni functions and media, particularly George O'Leary. That just seems petty and bush league, and it certainly can't help.

BTW....USF would not suddenly wilt and go away if UCF enters the league. If that happens, USF and UCF will instantly have a rivalry that rivals the Pitt-WVU tilts and the close travel would certainly be welcomed. However, on the football field it really comes down to coaching, recruiting and player development which is something that USF has won hands down against UCF since we started our football program a little over 10 years ago.

Amazing what a civil debate this has been! One thing I've got to disagree with you CB...at every function I've been at, O'Leary always tells the fans/boosters that they worry too much about what USF is doing and that we should focus more on UCF. In fact, the majority of the UCF posters were pissed that O'Leary doesn't take USF serious enough and can't get us over the hump against you. Just my personal observations anyways.

Mike the Knight Wrote:

CyberBull Wrote:

Krocker Krapp Wrote:From the point of view of the rest of the Big East schools, though, what USF wants will not trump what seven other schools want.

Really? USF can't just 'bully' the rest of the BigEast to make it a USF-centric league? Imagine that! ;^)

USF may only have one vote, but if it decides that its interests are best served by attempting to block UCiF's invitation it could lean on some pretty good relationships at UL and UC that could potentially derail UCF's admission. That would force the conference to listen to USF and consider its reasoning.

I'm not saying that this is going to happen, but don't disregard that USF has an ability to influence the direction of the league. We are not some federated member with no rights. Again, I would be curious to see what USF does, b/c while many UCF fans prefer to seemingly forget, USF was actually working in the background to help UCF get a football-only membership back in 2003. Is that still the case? I don't know. There was a lot of acrimony between the previous athletic department administrations but that is almost a non-factor today. It is troubling that UCF's coaching staff continues to call out USF at alumni functions and media, particularly George O'Leary. That just seems petty and bush league, and it certainly can't help.

BTW....USF would not suddenly wilt and go away if UCF enters the league. If that happens, USF and UCF will instantly have a rivalry that rivals the Pitt-WVU tilts and the close travel would certainly be welcomed. However, on the football field it really comes down to coaching, recruiting and player development which is something that USF has won hands down against UCF since we started our football program a little over 10 years ago.

Amazing what a civil debate this has been! One thing I've got to disagree with you CB...at every function I've been at, O'Leary always tells the fans/boosters that they worry too much about what USF is doing and that we should focus more on UCF. In fact, the majority of the UCF posters were pissed that O'Leary doesn't take USF serious enough and can't get us over the hump against you. Just my personal observations anyways.

Ditto that.

GOL never even talks about USF...until a fan might ask a question about it at a function...and always talks in general tones.

Each year at the Florida Football Coaches Press Days (last year or two held in Tampa I believe), GOL never brings up USF..and the last 2 years...a question was brought up by a reporter from the Tampa/St Pete area...and GOL answered it.

Now UCF fans talk about USF a lot amongst themselves...but GOL almost never talks about and only does when a direct question is asked.