Marzer Wrote:I wanted to bring another point to attention, and that is that UCF is playing Miami in Miami next season as well. It will be interesting to see how the scores compare! Of course USF has homr field advantage, but it is important to point out that it is not only USF that is playing Miami next season.

Also, I would like to thank everybody for their kind words. Cuseroc, I lived in the Syracuse area for quite a while and I am a huge fan of 'Cuse athletics. One of the main reasons I would like to see UCF join the BE from a fans prospective (not for business perspective, like I try to convey in my previous posts) is that I would enjoy seeing nothing more than Boeheim and the Orange gracing the new UCF arena.

I am dreaming of some Dinosaur BBQ right now...

Good job Marzer, I definetely understand your point of view, but still think that USF is better off going their separate way. If UCF does join the BE, then I could definitely see it becoming an intense rivalry.

Marzer Wrote:I wanted to bring another point to attention, and that is that UCF is playing Miami in Miami next season as well. It will be interesting to see how the scores compare! Of course USF has homr field advantage, but it is important to point out that it is not only USF that is playing Miami next season.

Also, I would like to thank everybody for their kind words. Cuseroc, I lived in the Syracuse area for quite a while and I am a huge fan of 'Cuse athletics. One of the main reasons I would like to see UCF join the BE from a fans prospective (not for business perspective, like I try to convey in my previous posts) is that I would enjoy seeing nothing more than Boeheim and the Orange gracing the new UCF arena.

I am dreaming of some Dinosaur BBQ right now...

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one).

What's this law that some USF fans say that about how a team can only have ONE rival?

I mean...UF plays 4 rivals every year....and this year, UF plays FIVE teams that are considered RIVALS:

MIAMI
TENNESSEE
LSU
GEORGIA
FLORIDA STATE

Also...some teams you play every year in conference games can be called just that: GAMES...(no need for the word RIVAL attached).



To the person who started this thread....when folks talk about "travel partners"...its not a benefit to USF they are talking about...its a benefit to the other 7 current all-sports team...and others (if the conf doesn't split) that can benefit with many of their Olympic Teams flying to FLA...but playing TWO Conference Opponents on just 1 flight.

Actually...since almost every USF Olympic Sport Team has to fly to conf events...having a conf opponent just 75 miles away will actually help cut some costs for USF Conference travel too.

Also...Miami and UF are each playing THREE FLA opponents this year.

You can call each game BIG RIVALS, LITTLE RIVALS or just a special interest game...

Bottom line...its ok to play them.

PS. Funny to see some Cane's comments when asked if USF is a rival to them, even though they already played 1 football game with 5 more to go.

http://miami.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?high...=114385559

Cubanbull Wrote:I dont think adding another Florida BCS team would help BE recruiting in our state in fact it would make it more dificult because UCF would get more of those recruits.

Actually, I think some of the Big East Football Coaches might cheer loudly the most for a possible new Big East Team in FLA...as right now...UL, Pitt, WVU, RU, etc...can only promise their FLA recruits basically just 2 games in FLA during their 4 year careers...but if a 2nd FLA team joined the conference...depending upon schedules...most of those coaches could promise their FLA at least ONE game per year to be played in FLA...and that would dramatically help their "selling pitch".

Remember, 66% of all FLA HS Scholarship players LEFT the State of FLA (total of 235 players) while only 125 of them stayed home in-state to play college ball.

FSU, UF, and UCF recruit out-of-state of FLA pretty good...and the majority of players will still leave the state to play at other Big East, ACC, SEC, and Big 10 schools.

Having at least 1 game each year played in FLA would help those Big East Schools that recruit FLA pretty good (RU, WVU, Pitt, & UL), another selling pt to try and see some more recruits up to their schools.

BullsFanInTX Wrote:

DawgNBama Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one). The answer is pretty simple to us. We have a long term series with UM starting up and no games with UCF for the forseeable future. Possibly very long future, if you read between the lines of CJL coachspeak. No, we are not better off "together" with UCF. We are clearly above UCF at this time, by a decent margin. That is no knock on UCF, you guys are building a solid program with good facilities. You gave UT all they could handle last year. But, most bulls fans just simply do not want to be your rivals. We don't want to share another piece of the pie. And from our point of view that is the way to go.

BullNTX,
Here is a factor you might want to consider. Florida and Florida State want absolutely, positively nothing to do with USF. Nothing at all. CJL can kick, scream, bite, curse, etc. all he wants, but he will never get a game with those two that he wants on HIS terms. Also, remember that Florida and Florida State have a LOT of political pull within the state of Florida. If it seems like that USF may become a threat to Florida or Florida State, the big two will ensure that some way or another the Miami-USF series WILL be discontinued, IMO.

I understand this, but if we keep getting into the top 5, and dare I say, to BCS bowls and NC games, then they can't deny us, no matter what they say. We are going to get there one way or the other, they can acknowledge it or not. After USF beats UM in 09 at RJS, and yes I think that is very likely, obviously, you will see that really develop, and be extended past the current 6 game series.

I think your analysis is colored to much by what you hope will happen. If you beat Miami I suspect they will discontinue the series quickly. There is no gain for Miami to play USF if they think they will lose. Miami is not looking for a rival in USF. FSU is there rival, and maybe to some extent UF. USF and UCF will not be on the level of the Big Three in for a long time. Winning a national championship won't change that. The Big Three have prestige and history.
It will take time for USF/UCF to build history. The combination of USF/UCF is in the Big East would be similar to the development of FSU and Miami. They will strengthen one another and act as a force multiplier. If USF wants to block UCF they'll find their develop occur at a slower pace. They'll be on an island in Tampa/Lakeland/St. Pete. UCF/Orlando won't want to hear about USF and neither will the rest of the state, i.e. FSU/UM/UF. Why must other FL school's fans respect/care about USF even if they're winning? They don't have to keep up with USF and they won't unless they have an interest in USF. At least if they're together the I-4 corridor will be interested in the Big East and UCF/USF if for no other reason than to keep up with a rival conference member's record.
Despite all USF's success (and BE conference affliation) last year, they did not receive anymore press than UCF. If both schools are in the same conference media exposure will double for both schools. Force multiplier is the reason to add UCF.

Jugnaut Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:

DawgNBama Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one). The answer is pretty simple to us. We have a long term series with UM starting up and no games with UCF for the forseeable future. Possibly very long future, if you read between the lines of CJL coachspeak. No, we are not better off "together" with UCF. We are clearly above UCF at this time, by a decent margin. That is no knock on UCF, you guys are building a solid program with good facilities. You gave UT all they could handle last year. But, most bulls fans just simply do not want to be your rivals. We don't want to share another piece of the pie. And from our point of view that is the way to go.

BullNTX,
Here is a factor you might want to consider. Florida and Florida State want absolutely, positively nothing to do with USF. Nothing at all. CJL can kick, scream, bite, curse, etc. all he wants, but he will never get a game with those two that he wants on HIS terms. Also, remember that Florida and Florida State have a LOT of political pull within the state of Florida. If it seems like that USF may become a threat to Florida or Florida State, the big two will ensure that some way or another the Miami-USF series WILL be discontinued, IMO.

I understand this, but if we keep getting into the top 5, and dare I say, to BCS bowls and NC games, then they can't deny us, no matter what they say. We are going to get there one way or the other, they can acknowledge it or not. After USF beats UM in 09 at RJS, and yes I think that is very likely, obviously, you will see that really develop, and be extended past the current 6 game series.

I think your analysis is colored to much by what you hope will happen. If you beat Miami I suspect they will discontinue the series quickly. There is no gain for Miami to play USF if they think they will lose. Miami is not looking for a rival in USF. FSU is there rival, and maybe to some extent UF. USF and UCF will not be on the level of the Big Three in for a long time. Winning a national championship won't change that. The Big Three have prestige and history.
It will take time for USF/UCF to build history. The combination of USF/UCF is in the Big East would be similar to the development of FSU and Miami. They will strengthen one another and act as a force multiplier. If USF wants to block UCF they'll find their develop occur at a slower pace. They'll be on an island in Tampa/Lakeland/St. Pete. UCF/Orlando won't want to hear about USF and neither will the rest of the state, i.e. FSU/UM/UF. Why must other FL school's fans respect/care about USF even if they're winning? They don't have to keep up with USF and they won't unless they have an interest in USF. At least if they're together the I-4 corridor will be interested in the Big East and UCF/USF if for no other reason than to keep up with a rival conference member's record.
Despite all USF's success (and BE conference affliation) last year, they did not receive anymore press than UCF. If both schools are in the same conference media exposure will double for both schools. Force multiplier is the reason to add UCF.

I have to call you on the USF did not receive any more press than UCF last year statement. USF was Everywhere when we started out 6-0, on every station and football program in the country. Got on the cover of SI (well at least in the lower corner). You would have had to have been dead not to notice.

And I disagree with your statement about UM. They knew full well, they weren't going to win all 6 games when they signed, yet they signed on the dotted line, and even agreed to the Thanksgiving agreement on espn every year. They agreed because USF is a BCS program (thier AD made that statement when agreeing to the long term series). It won't be cancelled.

USF won't play UCF after 08, so whether it hurts us or not (it won't) the decision has already been made by the AD Woolard and CJL.

KnightLight Wrote:

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one).

What's this law that some USF fans say that about how a team can only have ONE rival?I mean...UF plays 4 rivals every year....and this year, UF plays FIVE teams that are considered RIVALS:

MIAMI
TENNESSEE
LSU
GEORGIA
FLORIDA STATE

Also...some teams you play every year in conference games can be called just that: GAMES...(no need for the word RIVAL attached).



To the person who started this thread....when folks talk about "travel partners"...its not a benefit to USF they are talking about...its a benefit to the other 7 current all-sports team...and others (if the conf doesn't split) that can benefit with many of their Olympic Teams flying to FLA...but playing TWO Conference Opponents on just 1 flight.

Actually...since almost every USF Olympic Sport Team has to fly to conf events...having a conf opponent just 75 miles away will actually help cut some costs for USF Conference travel too.

Also...Miami and UF are each playing THREE FLA opponents this year.

You can call each game BIG RIVALS, LITTLE RIVALS or just a special interest game...

Bottom line...its ok to play them.

Most of us don't mind more than one rival, we just want them to be against BCS programs. As UCF would if they were in a BCS conf. Notice in your example above about UF, they are all BCS programs, no non bcs conf. teams. And we think we are developing rivalries against some BE foes, but that will take time, they don't happen overnight. If we walk into Morgantown and beat WVU for a 3rd straight year and eliminated them from a bcs bowl, you don't think there would be seeds of a rivalry started there?

Lots of interesting discussion.

What's in it for USF? ......Perhaps the easiest way for UCF fans to understand USF's position is to ask themselves, "if the situation was reversed would they want willingly support giving BCS access to a non-BCS state school? Didn't think so....despite all the well written arguments, it really boils down to competition on and off the field.

KnightLight Wrote:

Cubanbull Wrote:I dont think adding another Florida BCS team would help BE recruiting in our state in fact it would make it more dificult because UCF would get more of those recruits.

Actually, I think some of the Big East Football Coaches might cheer loudly the most for a possible new Big East Team in FLA...as right now...UL, Pitt, WVU, RU, etc...can only promise their FLA recruits basically just 2 games in FLA during their 4 year careers...but if a 2nd FLA team joined the conference...depending upon schedules...most of those coaches could promise their FLA at least ONE game per year to be played in FLA...and that would dramatically help their "selling pitch".

Remember, 66% of all FLA HS Scholarship players LEFT the State of FLA (total of 235 players) while only 125 of them stayed home in-state to play college ball.

FSU, UF, and UCF recruit out-of-state of FLA pretty good...and the majority of players will still leave the state to play at other Big East, ACC, SEC, and Big 10 schools.

Having at least 1 game each year played in FLA would help those Big East Schools that recruit FLA pretty good (RU, WVU, Pitt, & UL), another selling pt to try and see some more recruits up to their schools.

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way. Very well thought out. But let me ask you one question. Who do you think USF would rather have a rivalry against. Several time national champion Miami, or UCF (also a non-bcs program at this time, albeit a pretty good one). The answer is pretty simple to us. We have a long term series with UM starting up and no games with UCF for the forseeable future. Possibly very long future, if you read between the lines of CJL coachspeak. No, we are not better off "together" with UCF. We are clearly above UCF at this time, by a decent margin. That is no knock on UCF, you guys are building a solid program with good facilities. You gave UT all they could handle last year. But, most bulls fans just simply do not want to be your rivals. We don't want to share another piece of the pie. And from our point of view that is the way to go.

the thing is UM will not in the near future become a rival game.. for them FSU, and UF are the rivals.. USF is just another game. It will take 15 or 20 years of you guys playing them pretty regularly for that to change.. and only if you can beat them quite often.

DawgNBama Wrote:[quote=BullsFanInTX]
Marzer, excellent post.

I completely disagree, but excellent post any way.

BullNTX,
Here is a factor you might want to consider. Florida and Florida State want absolutely, positively nothing to do with USF. Nothing at all. CJL can kick, scream, bite, curse, etc. all he wants, but he will never get a game with those two that he wants on HIS terms. Also, remember that Florida and Florida State have a LOT of political pull within the state of Florida. If it seems like that USF may become a threat to Florida or Florida State, the big two will ensure that some way or another the Miami-USF series WILL be discontinued, IMO.

I tend to agree there.. UM sees this as a good SOS game where they should win 80% of the time.. if it looks like they will not do that they won't maintain it long term.. UM needs to go 3-1 or 4-0 every year OCC... to put themselves in line for national title shots.. Most big time BCS programs schedule at least 2 lock type games every year.. and one mediocre game where they should win... but other team is seen as good, and than one showcase game.. ie UF/FSU.. USC/ND.. ect. you want a good not great schedule and a great record.. esp if you are amongst that group that pushes for Nat title most years.

I understand USF point of view on this......

Argument can go both ways...on the one hand do we really need two teams from Florida? But, I like UCF and think they are on the rise. They have a nice stadium and great fan support in football. And it would open up the Orlando market for BE.....

At anyrate, great discussion and welcome UCF fans.....

has been an amazing conversation to be honest... I can see both sides of the thing.. I don't think USF will grow faster nor slower no matter what or where the BE goes. UCF gets 1/2 or more of their recuits out of state.. so I really don't see us hurting USF recruiting one way or the other. Once Oleary moves on that may change.. but he works his old stomping grounds in N Georgia alot, and also in NY.

We dshall see what happens in the long run but playing UM will be considered a good match up for both if it turns out to be a national battle between top 25 squads.
I agree UM considers FSU their rival and Florida will not play them yearly. So USF-UM could turn out to be a competitive series. It doesnt take 15-20 years for a heated rivalry to start. I remember UM-ND playing for years and NOT being considered a rivalry until both teams reached national prominence.

CyberBull Wrote:Lots of interesting discussion.

What's in it for USF? ......Perhaps the easiest way for UCF fans to understand USF's position is to ask themselves, "if the situation was reversed would they want willingly support giving BCS access to a non-BCS state school? Didn't think so....despite all the well written arguments, it really boils down to competition on and off the field.

I think if the situation was reversed, UCF fans would want USF in the BE. I'm not BS-ing. UCF fans feel secure that if all things are equal in conference affiliation, recruits will pick UCF over USF due to the nicer campus/academics/location/producing NFL talent. We would want USF to be included to be our rival. The rivalry could grow into one of the best in the US.

On the UM game, you gotta remember that almost all UM's fans were furious with their AD for signing such a long series with USF. The series won't be extended due to fan outcry. They don't view USF as a rival nor do they want USF as a rival. ESPN and the entire nation groups USF and UCF as rivals. Wanting it to be otherwise doesn't change that. I think part of the reason you want UCF out is because we are your rival. It's just another way to hurt your rival. Isn't that what this is all about?

Cubanbull Wrote:We dshall see what happens in the long run but playing UM will be considered a good match up for both if it turns out to be a national battle between top 25 squads.
I agree UM considers FSU their rival and Florida will not play them yearly. So USF-UM could turn out to be a competitive series. It doesnt take 15-20 years for a heated rivalry to start. I remember UM-ND playing for years and NOT being considered a rivalry until both teams reached national prominence.

I agree you can get a good rival quicker than that.. problem is UM will drop it if its not pretty much a one side advantage for them.. Playing you guys every year and losing close to 1/2 of them is a losing deal for them. they want back to the very top in country.. top 10's and national title shots.. if playing you keeps them from that.. the game will go away.

Well it is easy to say that because UCF is NOT in the Bulls position. So it is pointless to get into n argument on what would be UCF's stand on this issue.
About Miami of course their fand were upset but that could change once the series begins and if it is a match up of top 25.
Right now UM fans dont see that much of a difference btween UCF and USF and thats exactly what the USF goal is. Last years climb to #2 in polls got us plenty of attention making a BCs bowl and beating Miami are two things that USF must do in next 3-5 years to move into next level.

Miami needs fans in the seats and if losing to USF means losing to a Top10 team it wont be that hard a decision to them. Now losing to unranked teams is what they wont put up with.
But losing to the Big East champ and atop10 team would just heat up the rivalry.
many UM football fans are now questioning leaving the Big East imagine losing to USF the team that replaced them in Florida. The rivalry would heat up pretty fast.

BullsFanInTX Wrote:Hey guys, say hello to the newbie here. I have been browsing this site for a very long time and decided to chime in on the topic of expansion. This is simply my opinion from the USF point of view and not to denigrate any particular school. I have absolutely nothing against UCF, Memphis, and/or ECU, in fact, I think that eventually each of these 3 could probably duplicate the success of USF, UC, and UofL.

From the USF point of view, USF will never vote for expansion for UCF within the next 10 years. Again, UCF fans please understand, I have nothing whatsoever against UCF. I just don't want to be your "rivals". I find it amazing, that everyone else in the conference wants to pigeon hole us into a rivalry with UCF, when that is the last thing USF needs, imho. USF has a 6 game series (possibly longer if it plays out) with UMiami starting next year, televised on Thanksgiving day on ESPN starting in '10. Give that game a chance to develop before trying to decide for us who our rivalry should be. We really want that game to develop. Can't you see from our point of view why we want everything to do with that game and not with a UCF game.

Anyway, I thought I would post my opinions, on why you will never see USF vote for UCF in the Big East:

1) Rivalry. CJL really wants to establish rivalries with BCS and only BCS programs with established powers such as UMiami. And you can't really blame him. I certainly understand UCF's point of view about wanting a game with USF every year (even though USF has dominated the Knights on the field). However, USF feels the same way about about establishing a long term rivalry with a team such as UM. We need time to see if that will develop, instead of being pigeon holed into a series with UCF. We play and have a very good chance of beating UM at RJS in 09. Let that develop and see where we are at. I admit, Miami feels the same about us as we feel about UCF at this time, but that could change in a hurry, when we beat them next year at RJS.

2) Travel. As much as others would like you to believe. We do not need a "travel partner" or "rivalry". USF has never expressed the opinion that is would be beneficial to have a travel partner. We play plenty of Florida teams in non conf, and you will probably see more of those in the future, except for UCF, for reasons I won't get into now.

3) Building on our own merits. USF wants to build a national power on our OWN merits, and not be tied to a non bcs teams such as UCF. We want to be the only 4th team you think of when you think of the 4 bcs powers in FL. We do not want to be tied, even conversationally, to another school, until we have established ourselves as a true national power. Unless that school is an established program like UM.

4) Recruiting. Yes, there is a ton of talent in FL. However, we pull nearly ALL of our talent directly from FL. It would dilute our talent base, and give us more competition for recruits, which we clearly have the upper hand against non bcs programs such as UCF, FAU, FIU, etc. Yes is are a lot of talent to go around, but why would we give away an advantage we currently hold. It would hurt USF whether anyone sees that or not.

We want to get to the mountain top on our own merits. We will get there within a few years, I truly believe. I really believe USF is on the verge of competing for National championships within the next 5 years. Please let us get there on our own, without telling us who/when/where we should play and who should be our rivals. Once we truly establish ourselves as a national power, ala Miami, then I could see this point of view changing, (maybe, or maybe not).

Yes, probably one of the best "expansion" posts, no matter which board. The point seems to be this: USF playing and beating UCF does USF and BE no good. USF beating Miami or Florida does tons of good. That is public perception and an old marketing maxim is perception is reality.

This post....I could pull USF out of it and plug in CUSA....and it pretty much describes what CUSA must do. Last year, Tulsa beat MWC Champ BYU. What did it gain in national publicity or prestige? Nothing! (No intent her to diss BYU). This season, Tulsa plays Arkansas. If TU beats Arkansas, that would generate all kinds of positive publicity.

If BE wins its nonconference games against BCS schools, it doesn't matter if BE has 8, 9, 10, or 12 teams. If BE doesn't win nonconference BCS games, it doesn't matter if BE has 9, 10, or 12 teams....

Ditto for CUSA. Having a perceived strong CUSA/East with BCS quality schools is great....but if the BCS victories don't come in nonconference games, then CUSA is perceived negatively. CUSA/West schools must do the same if CUSA is to progress with tv negotiations and bowl tie-ins.

goodknightfl Wrote:

Cubanbull Wrote:We dshall see what happens in the long run but playing UM will be considered a good match up for both if it turns out to be a national battle between top 25 squads.
I agree UM considers FSU their rival and Florida will not play them yearly. So USF-UM could turn out to be a competitive series. It doesnt take 15-20 years for a heated rivalry to start. I remember UM-ND playing for years and NOT being considered a rivalry until both teams reached national prominence.

I agree you can get a good rival quicker than that.. problem is UM will drop it if its not pretty much a one side advantage for them.. Playing you guys every year and losing close to 1/2 of them is a losing deal for them. they want back to the very top in country.. top 10's and national title shots.. if playing you keeps them from that.. the game will go away.

Disagree. While most Miami fans have been against the series since it was first announced, more and more are coming to realize that the series may indeed help them out with exposure to the recruits in an area that has traditionally been Florida and FSU recruiting territory.

So, Miami may have some things to gain by this series as well.

Of course, what will really make this series a success is if, and this is a BIG IF, USF fans travel down to Miami and help fill Dolphin Stadium. Bulls' fans are not known as a 'travelling' fanbase. So I am curious to see what other Bulls' fans think about this aspect of the series.

Cheers,
Neil