perunapower Wrote:Here's a few examples of Christian terrorism.

Atlanta Olympic Park Bomber
Eric Rudolph also bombed an abortion clinic and a lesbian nightclub in Atlanta, as well as an abortion clinic in Birmingham. He claims to be part of the Army of God.

AFP article: Christian Terrorists Kill 44
There are many examples of Christian terrorism in India.

Man in clinic crash thought center was abortion clinic

OKC bombing
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols sympathized with the Branch Davidian and are thought to have been associated with the Christian Patriots.

Dude, seriously? This is what you offer? Want me to add a timeline of Muzzie terrorist activities?

First off, I'll give you Eric Rudolph, but he wasn't acting as a true Christian. I won't, however, give you the guy that crashed his car into an abortion clinic. Christianity doesn't condone murder. It's actually "in" our book. As for McVeigh and Nichols, are you serious? The Branch Dividians were a cult, not Christians, and there have been many cases made about McVeigh's connections to Jose Padilla. As for the Indian story, I can't verify it as the Yahoo link is no longer active.


All in all, are you f'n serious? Is this the best you can come up with?

RebelKev Wrote:Dude, seriously? This is what you offer? Want me to add a timeline of Muzzie terrorist activities?

First off, I'll give you Eric Rudolph, but he wasn't acting as a true Christian.

Radical Muslims aren't acting true to Islam either, what's your point?

Quote:I won't, however, give you the guy that crashed his car into an abortion clinic. Christianity doesn't condone murder. It's actually "in" our book.

It's in the Qu'ran too. Most Muslim scholars believe that murder is forbidden by the Qu'ran.

Quote:As for McVeigh and Nichols, are you serious? The Branch Dividians were a cult, not Christians, and there have been many cases made about McVeigh's connections to Jose Padilla.

Actually, the Branch Davidian is a twisted branch of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Cult or not. They believed that they were living in the tribulations told in the Revelation.

Quote:As for the Indian story, I can't verify it as the Yahoo link is no longer active.

That article is copied from the link, but I understand if you don't trust it's authenticity. Here are other articles for different incidents in India committed by the NLFT, which is allegedly funded by the Baptist Church of Tripura.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2696965.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/758342.stm

Do note that I am not saying that Christian radicalism is equally as prevalent as Islamic radicalism. That's just simply not true. I'm merely providing examples to show that terrorism is not limited to Islam.

perunapower Wrote:Radical Muslims aren't acting true to Islam either, what's your point?

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

"Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)

Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."

see Fitna video

really, we could post the actual Koran for days...the same versus referenced when Jihadist around the world are killing people.


and McVeigh was an atheist....book suggestion: "Religion of Peace: Why Christianity is and Islam isn't" by Robert Spencer

perunapower Wrote:It's in the Qu'ran too. Most Muslim scholars believe that murder is forbidden by the Qu'ran.

Yeah, the murder of other Muslims, NOT infidels.

RebelKev Wrote:

NIU007 Wrote:I'm sure anti-Semites would agree with that. In any case, based on what you know of Muslims, are they the kind of people that you will see in an Iraqi Congress politely debating laws and then agreeing to abide by laws that are passed that they don't agree with for religious reasons? I just don't see it.

The whole f'n religion needs to reform. Wouldn't really be a problem for us with the exception of those f'ers flying planes into buildings, blowing up airliners, bombing embassies, and kidnapping and beheading journalists, etc., but you get my drift.

And the problem is, they won't reform because they don't feel they have anything to reform. It's their faith, and they won't change it any more than Christians are going to disavow their faith. I do think most Iraqi muslims don't have that much against the US if they're left alone. I think it's more those crazy madrassas in Saudi Arabia that are more fundamentalist, teaching hate. It's too bad. It'd be better if the Sunnis could at least get along with the Shia (then maybe we could pull out of Iraq now) but I don't see that happening. That's why I think we could be in Iraq for decades and we would still have a problem after we pulled out. At least if you consider a civil war in Iraq to be a problem for the U.S.

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).

"If anyone slays a person
- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -
it would be as if he slew all people.
And if anyone saves a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all people."
(5:32)

"Invite all to the way of your Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them
in ways that are best and most gracious...
And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional
to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from God.
And do not grieve over them,
or distress yourself because of their plots.
For God is with those who restrain themselves,
and those who do good."
(16:125-128)

"The recompense for an injury
is an injury equal thereto (in degree),
but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation,
his reward is due from God,
for God loves not those who do wrong.
But indeed, if any do help and defend themselves
after a wrong done to them,
against such there is no cause of blame.
The blame is only against those who oppress men
with wrongdoing and insolently transgress
beyond bounds through the land,
defying right and justice.
For such there will be a penalty grievous (in the Hereafter).
But indeed, if any show patience and forgive,
that would truly be an affair of great resolution."
(42:40-43)

"Goodness and evil are not equal.
Repel evil with what is better.
Then that person with whom there was hatred,
may become your intimate friend!
And no one will be granted such goodness
except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,
none but people of the greatest good fortune."
(41:34-35)

I'm really getting tired of arguing this point. Islam is not a religion of war, it is a religion of peace and forgiveness, much like Christianity. It's pointless for me to argue for tolerance if you won't listen. Because this is pointless, I'm choosing not to waste my time essentially arguing with drywall.

Quote:"If anyone slays a person
- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -
it would be as if he slew all people.
And if anyone saves a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all people."
(5:32)

Yeah, no way that can mean anyone but Muzzies. /sarcasm.

http://jihadwatch.org/islam101/

Quote:Those Westerners who manage to pick up a translation of the Quran are often left bewildered as to its meaning thanks to ignorance of a critically important principle of Quranic interpretation known as "abrogation." The principle of abrogation -- al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) -- directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" -- i.e., cancel and replace -- earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

It seems that 2:106 was revealed in response to skepticism directed at Muhammad that Allah's revelations were not entirely consistent over time. Muhammad's rebuttal was that "Allah is able to do all things" -- even change his mind. To confuse matters further, though the Quran was revealed to Muhammad sequentially over some twenty years' time, it was not compiled in chronological order. When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the suras were ordered from longest to shortest with no connection whatever to the order in which they were revealed or to their thematic content. In order to find out what the Quran says on a given topic, it is necessary to examine the other Islamic sources that give clues as to when in Muhammad's lifetime the revelations occurred. Upon such examination, one discovers that the Meccan suras, revealed at a time when the Muslims were vulnerable, are generally benign; the later Medinan suras, revealed after Muhammad had made himself the head of an army, are bellicose.

Quote:Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a "religion of peace."

This thread is the way I thought the Fitna thread was going to go. A religious pissing contest.

There are many verses in the Qu'ran that tell Muslims to not fight the enemy if the enemy wants peace, but as with most religions we can give a desired face to a religion if we cherry-pick a few quotes from their books.

The religion could use a reformation. Islam will still fight itself and everyone else if it keeps believing it should be used as a legal standard.