How would the US react if Iran tried to extort info from the sailors? The coalition did put Iran on war footing with the axis of evil speech. What if Tehran wanted to extract info for their very survival. Would the coalition have the moral high ground to complain if they did?

Still taking the side of the enemy, eh mach?

See you are confused here. I think it would be an outrage. But to some on here it's not torture so how could the coalition have a problem with it.

Machiavelli Wrote:See you are confused here. I think it would be an outrage. But to some on here it's not torture so how could the coalition have a problem with it.

I wasn't necesarily talking about the torture aspect, but instead your blaming Iran's aggression on the "Coalition".

No,

I am specifically speaking if Iran waterboarded the captives. See, how can you expect another nation to follow the Geneva Conventions if you yourself break them. That's the slope this administration has put us on.

Here's the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Read them and see how many we have broken in the last 4 years. Another thing I was thinking about the other day. Here we have roughly 50% of Americans astonished by the transgressions of our government. In our own country. Around the world what percent do you think agrees with the United States? We have lost our credibility on the world stage. I suspect many on here agree with me, but you can't say it because you've been hoodwinked by W. People no matter what race or religion or creed can see Liberty and Truth. The world used to admire the US. Yes they had petty jealousies but I truly believe we have lost that shining beacon of hope we used to have. The Saudi King just came out today and called our occupation illegal in Iraq and THESE are our ALLIES. The turth is out there. The world can see it and I'm convinced we are on the wrong side of that. A rarity indeed, but the US is on the wrong side of the truth in this case.

they've more in likely had training for waterboarding and other techniques, as many in our military have. Along with sleep deprevation among other things. You can disagree all you want with how far we go with terrorist, but I think an easy standard to apply is that if we do it to our own troops in training, we ought to be able to do it to the leaders of al Qaeda.


What we do not do to our troops in training are things like chopping their hands off for using US currency, cutting their tongues out for speaking out, breaking all the bones in their feet then forcing them to run a mile....just a few things that are clearly torture, used by Saddam and many other despots. If you can not distinguish between acts like that and waterboarding then i pity you.


and I have news for you, we were using waterboarding as an interrogation technique before W came to power.

Machiavelli Wrote:No,

I am specifically speaking if Iran waterboarded the captives. See, how can you expect another nation to follow the Geneva Conventions if you yourself break them. That's the slope this administration has put us on.

Here's the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Geesh, what hubris. You know, much of the world never followed them to begin with b/c they were a construction of Western Nations, whose leaders and citizens thought (and still think) themselves better than their primative counterparts.

Do you understand your own arrogance, and that it fuels hatred from other peoples?

Quote:Another thing I was thinking about the other day. Here we have roughly 50% of Americans astonished by the transgressions of our government. In our own country. Around the world what percent do you think agrees with the United States? We have lost our credibility on the world stage.

Once again, your "credibility" is a notion of superiority that others find disdainful.

Quote: I suspect many on here agree with me, but you can't say it because you've been hoodwinked by W.

Oh yes Mach, we're all so stupid except for you.

Here's a tip, we're not all 14-17 year olds who believe that their teacher is omniscient, or at least feign it b/c he controls their grades. Some of us can think for ourselves, and don't need the teacher's manual to figure out problems and understand issues.

Quote: People no matter what race or religion or creed can see Liberty and Truth. The world used to admire the US.

And when was that, exactly? During the Carter years? During the Clinton scandals? During the VietNam war and Johnson's "Great Society"?
Once again, the ugly American shows himself, and then blames everyone else for problems.

Quote:Yes they had petty jealousies

I'm sure the simple primatives of the world appreciate your condescension.

Quote: but I truly believe we have lost that shining beacon of hope we used to have.

So I guess the illegal immigration thing has been solved. And you thought Bush didn't care.

GGniner Wrote:they've more in likely had training for waterboarding and other techniques, as many in our military have. Along with sleep deprevation among other things. You can disagree all you want with how far we go with terrorist, but I think an easy standard to apply is that if we do it to our own troops in training, we ought to be able to do it to the leaders of al Qaeda.

First, ask yourself why we do it to our own troops in training...

to prepare them for the torture of our enemies.

That doesn't legitimize us using it, it never has and it never will. Why do you want us to be like them?

Secondly, as I have told you repeatedly, SEALS no longer use waterboarding to prepare SEALS in training. It was hurting morale so they stopped it.

Quote:In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

Waterboarding is torture. We are now a torturing nation.

If you are so hell bent on confronting this new kind of war which you enjoy waxing poetically about, pick up a damn gun and go fight it. There are plenty of people who do so. Why have you not mustered the courage?

GrayBeard Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:See you are confused here. I think it would be an outrage. But to some on here it's not torture so how could the coalition have a problem with it.

I wasn't necesarily talking about the torture aspect, but instead your blaming Iran's aggression on the "Coalition".

I don't think he's blaming Iran's agression on the coalition, but he is using it to explain part of their motives (I disagree with this analysis for a few reasons, but it does make sense and its certainly not unpatriotic).

But what say you on his larger point? If waterboarding is a legitimate interrogation technique and not a human rights violation and torture, then should we have a problem with Iran doing it to the Queen's sailors? Its a fair question.

Quote:But what say you on his larger point? If waterboarding is a legitimate interrogation technique and not a human rights violation and torture, then should we have a problem with Iran doing it to the Queen's sailors? Its a fair question.

This was the question. They would water board the sailors because we have put them on a war footing. Extract intel.

OUGwave Wrote:First, ask yourself why we do it to our own troops in training...

to prepare them for the torture of our enemies.

That doesn't legitimize us using it, it never has and it never will. Why do you want us to be like them?

We aren't like them, but what I "want" is for us to defeat them.

Quote:Secondly, as I have told you repeatedly, SEALS no longer use waterboarding to prepare SEALS in training. It was hurting morale so they stopped it.

SERE program, look it up "Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape". They still do it, and who knows what else which is classified. one example: http://www.usafa.af.mil/superintendent/p...s/sere.htm

you should also note in your WAPO excerpt they use waterboarding as an "Interrogation" technique in how they framed it in that sentence. I'm suprised the editors let this framing slip get through. also note, WAPO will intentionally mislead you as they have an agenda which I've already shown in the previous thread

Quote:If you are so hell bent on confronting this new kind of war which you enjoy waxing poetically about, pick up a damn gun and go fight it. There are plenty of people who do so. Why have you not mustered the courage?

the war is being fought on many fronts. But since you claim to agree with Afghan war, why are you not over there fighting in it? Have you not mustered the courage?

and if there is one thing I'm not, its a poet.

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:But what say you on his larger point? If waterboarding is a legitimate interrogation technique and not a human rights violation and torture, then should we have a problem with Iran doing it to the Queen's sailors? Its a fair question.

This was the question. They would water board the sailors because we have put them on a war footing. Extract intel.

Iran put itself on a war footing in 1979 when it declared war against the USA. They continue today by arming terrorist in Iraq because they are threatened by true democracy.

Machiavelli Wrote:No,

I am specifically speaking if Iran waterboarded the captives. See, how can you expect another nation to follow the Geneva Conventions if you yourself break them. That's the slope this administration has put us on.

Here's the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Read them and see how many we have broken in the last 4 years. Another thing I was thinking about the other day. Here we have roughly 50% of Americans astonished by the transgressions of our government. In our own country. Around the world what percent do you think agrees with the United States? We have lost our credibility on the world stage. I suspect many on here agree with me, but you can't say it because you've been hoodwinked by W. People no matter what race or religion or creed can see Liberty and Truth. The world used to admire the US. Yes they had petty jealousies but I truly believe we have lost that shining beacon of hope we used to have. The Saudi King just came out today and called our occupation illegal in Iraq and THESE are our ALLIES. The turth is out there. The world can see it and I'm convinced we are on the wrong side of that. A rarity indeed, but the US is on the wrong side of the truth in this case.

Mach I've been to Saudi--Yenbo and Jeddah. Believe me the Saudi's are not our allies and they sure aren't our friends. We love their oil and they love our $$$$. But other than that we can't stand each other. Our way of life and theirs (because of the vast difference in our fundamental religion) is completely incompatible with theirs.

I read where there are 2 aircrafts carriers headed to the Persian Gulf now, so I would think another showdown is coming. But our current president is so determined to stretch our military forces all over the world that there will be nothing left to defend our own border with Mexico and there darn sure wont be anything to defend Tawain against the Chinese.

I do tend to agree with you that Americans are not as respected around the world today as say 15 or 20 years ago. I worked on U.S. merchant ships for 10 years, and I have walked alone down some of the scarriest streets in the world. Americans we treated with respect. I would be much more apprehensive about going down those same streets now. It really gets intimidating when they suddenly lose electric power in those 3rd world countries and you're there in the dark on a crowded street by yourself amongst people who don't have a dime to their name. I've beent here more than once.

GGniner Wrote:the war is being fought on many fronts. But since you claim to agree with Afghan war, why are you not over there fighting in it? Have you not mustered the courage?

Because you don't get to choose where you get deployed to, and I am not going to sacrifice my life so that George W. can be spared the humility of withdrawing from Iraq under his watch.

And unlike you, I'm not asking anybody else to make that sacrifice either.

Endzone2 Wrote:I read where there are 2 aircrafts carriers headed to the Persian Gulf now, so I would think another showdown is coming.

Its just a rotation. We're not attacking Iran.

OUGwave Wrote:

Endzone2 Wrote:I read where there are 2 aircrafts carriers headed to the Persian Gulf now, so I would think another showdown is coming.

Its just a rotation. We're not attacking Iran.

not to mention Britain has asked the US to stay out of it so we dont make matters worse.

OUGwave Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:the war is being fought on many fronts. But since you claim to agree with Afghan war, why are you not over there fighting in it? Have you not mustered the courage?

Because you don't get to choose where you get deployed to, and I am not going to sacrifice my life so that George W. can be spared the humility of withdrawing from Iraq under his watch.

And unlike you, I'm not asking anybody else to make that sacrifice either.

how patriotic, you wish your country to fail.


I'm not asking anyone either, the US Military is an all volunteer force

The subject of torture is an intriguing one from a psychological viewpoint.

Most people are against it, and rightfully so. This includes me. But I think part of the reason is that we're so disconnected from the players. It's generally reflexive, from afar, to be against a no-name CIA stranger administering torture to a no-name prisoner to extract information at some far flung location. We can think clearly, as it's not so individualized.

However, I have to ask: What if you were in a room

I'm against torture primarily because it has yet to be shown to be consistently effective. The moral right or wrong of it is a whole different subject. Under enough duress people will give you any information and they will even make stuff up if it gets you to stop inflicting pain upon them. What good is that information when you don't know how close to reality it is?

[quote]However, I have to ask: What if you were in a room

I don't believe the rest of the world EVER envied us. Certainly theocratic societies never did... nor did communist ones... nor monarchies or dictatorships....

The truth is... WE USED TO ADMIRE OURSELVES... but that is passee... Self-loathing is en-vogue now. They can now be more brash about their hate because they know we won't argue with them about it, or stop buying their products, or stop sending them money... because the only people who hate America more than foriegners are some Americans.

This isn't a political view... it's a historical one... Look at the fall of every great society. It started internally. Democrats and Republicans don't REALLY have substantial policy differences... they simply can't get elected if they don't villify their opponent.