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Globalism vs. Nationalism. What side are you on?
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #21
 
GGniner Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:Yes isn't that wonderful. China can now yank our chain anytime they want thanks to all the trillions of dollars we have spent on their goods and thanks to the 1 trillion in bonds they have given us as credit to buy those goods.

I think what you like about free international trade is that it raises the standard of living in China and India. But, you couldn't care less what it does in the United States.

For every $ we send to China or other countries, we get more than a Dollar back. Some estimates say we get about 1.14 back, others $1.46...bottom line its a net plus.

We may send dollars to China for cheaper goods(that combined with Wal-Mart greatly benefits the poor, more than the govt. can ever do for the poor)....and for each dollar we send they in return send more than a Dollar back. That net gain is increasing jobs in the US, just in different industry segments.


Protectionism, whether free trade or "Fortress America" foreign policy scares the daylights out of me.

What are you talking about? China doesn't send us dollars. We have a 200 billion trade deficet with China alone. How does this trade imbalance help the poor in the U.S.? I talked with a couple guys the other night at Wal Mart. They were making $8.60/hour and one guy had 4 kids. Now if he had one of those nice middle class manufacturing jobs that we have sent over to China by the millions, maybe he would be able to move out of poverty level and into middle class. I say keep the good manufacturing jobs in the U.S. and let prices be a little bit higher. At least people will have places to work where they can earn middle class wages. Besides, I'm tired of all that cheap garbage that China makes. I'd actually like to buy some things that have quality. I haven't seen anything from China that has quality.

The only people benefiting from this huge imbalance are the upper middle class and rich here in the U.S. It doesn't help the poor and it doesn't help the middle class. It only helps international (multinational as they like to call themselves) corporations farm out jobs to cheap labor and find loopholes to avoid paying taxes.
03-09-2007 03:41 AM
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Tulsaman Offline
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Post: #22
 
The Us is a mature economy. It is a SERVICE driven economy NOT a PRODUCTION one, if you would just take a simple economics class at your local college or university you'd know this.
03-09-2007 04:57 AM
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OUGwave Offline
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Post: #23
 
What Endzone fails to realize is that only free trade in which a nation exploits its comparative advantage can create wealth for that society. Anything else just transfers wealth, instead of creating it.

As such, protection can only benefit certain industries, it won't make the country as a whole better off. When a government implements a tariff, for instance, the result is mostly a transfer of consumer surplus to producer surplus. The rest is what economists call a dead-weight loss -- wealth/welfare that simply evaporates due to efficiency losses.

Thats the larger question of free trade.

But pertaining to the US economy currently...

What EZ also fails to see is that there is such a thing as an international financial market -- may want to read about it in the newspaper some time. It is China buying our debt that finances our spending. They don't do this benevolently, but it does benefit both of us. China gets to build up its ForEx reserves which will come in handy if their non-performing loans trigger a monetary crisis. They also do it because it puts downward pressure on their currency which helps their exports. The U.S. has is able to keep interest rates low without weakening our currency too much, because China is propping up the value of our dollar by snatching up all the dollar-denominated assets their central bank can find. These lower interest rates are good for the U.S., and also good for China, because American consumption is key to both economies.

The fundamental economic identity here is :

Savings (private and government) - Investment = Exports - Imports

Since we invest more than we save, we have to import capital from abroad, a capital account surplus. This capital allows us to get loads and loads of credit cards and consume the crap we want to. We import the difference between Savings and Investment through our trade deficit. The reason why we import so much from China is because their savings rate gives them a capital surplus which keeps their currency value low and thus makes their exports cheaper. Meanwhile, nobody wants to buy our goods because our exports are more expensive to them due to the value of the dollar which is propped up by the fact that our investment rate is high.

That is, in a nutshell, where the trade deficit comes from. It is because we are an attractive destination for international investors, and that many Americans are buying homes and other thins --- more than we save. China also is more attractive, but their economy has far higher savings than it does investment. If we want to reduce our trade deficit, we need to improve our savings, and that means both the budget deficit and private citizens. As it works now, China is essentially financing our spending, and the tradeoff of that is the trade deficit. If you want to do something about the trade deficit, we have to either increase saving (good) or decrease our investment (the buying of homes and other things). The latter would crash our economy, and the former seems highly unlikely with Bush running huge deficits.

But you can't really get mad at the Chinese, they are simply enabling (for the short term) our irresponsible domestic policies of maintaining low interest rates, low personal savings, and low government savings all at the same time.
03-09-2007 07:41 AM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #24
 
Endzone2 Wrote:What are you talking about? China doesn't send us dollars. We have a 200 billion trade deficet with China alone. How does this trade imbalance help the poor in the U.S.? I talked with a couple guys the other night at Wal Mart. They were making $8.60/hour and one guy had 4 kids. Now if he had one of those nice middle class manufacturing jobs that we have sent over to China by the millions, maybe he would be able to move out of poverty level and into middle class. I say keep the good manufacturing jobs in the U.S. and let prices be a little bit higher. At least people will have places to work where they can earn middle class wages. Besides, I'm tired of all that cheap garbage that China makes. I'd actually like to buy some things that have quality. I haven't seen anything from China that has quality.

The only people benefiting from this huge imbalance are the upper middle class and rich here in the U.S. It doesn't help the poor and it doesn't help the middle class. It only helps international (multinational as they like to call themselves) corporations farm out jobs to cheap labor and find loopholes to avoid paying taxes.

the trade "defecit" is a flawed statistic, and this is were Lou Dobbs fails miserably. It only tells part of the story and ignores the other part which is Foreign Investment that comes back to us thanks to "free trade" off the $'s they earned. The good news is we are getting more back than we send over, they are taking their dollars and investing in Real Esate or Stock or open up a Plant like Toyota here in the US which creates jobs. The trade deficit is a good thing, its evidence that Foreign Investors are eager to invest their $$$ here because our economy is so attractive.........now congress can spend to much and effect the trade balance on their own by borrowing too much but that has nothing to do with free trade.

the problem is there are pockets of the country that are experiencing growing pains due to the change, they need to re-group and look at the new emerging industries...i.e. play the game. My girlfriends father owns a plant in NC that makes pillows and comforters and sell to the service industry(hotels)...he has grown his business(has more employees) and he imports some of what he sells from China, the rest he still makes here because its still feasible.

as for Wal-Mart, the combination of their business model and free trade have dropped the cost of goods and made living for the poor much easier, the working poor or generally one of their main target markets. Compare today's working poor to that of 50 yrs ago for example, in how they are able to live.
03-09-2007 10:20 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #25
 
GGniner Wrote:the problem is there are pockets of the country that are experiencing growing pains due to the change, they need to re-group and look at the new emerging industries...i.e. play the game.

EXACTLY! And it's not hard for the press or a candidate to find those pockets and take them out of context. In fact, I'd say that's the news media's bread and butter (so much for being progressive, right Schadenfreud?)
But, it is not the norm! It is playing on people's tendency to gripe, complain and remain lethargic.

BTW, this is precisely what Drucker wrote in Innovation and Entrepreneurship
03-09-2007 11:17 AM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #26
 
GGniner Wrote:
Endzone2 Wrote:What are you talking about? China doesn't send us dollars. We have a 200 billion trade deficet with China alone. How does this trade imbalance help the poor in the U.S.? I talked with a couple guys the other night at Wal Mart. They were making $8.60/hour and one guy had 4 kids. Now if he had one of those nice middle class manufacturing jobs that we have sent over to China by the millions, maybe he would be able to move out of poverty level and into middle class. I say keep the good manufacturing jobs in the U.S. and let prices be a little bit higher. At least people will have places to work where they can earn middle class wages. Besides, I'm tired of all that cheap garbage that China makes. I'd actually like to buy some things that have quality. I haven't seen anything from China that has quality.

The only people benefiting from this huge imbalance are the upper middle class and rich here in the U.S. It doesn't help the poor and it doesn't help the middle class. It only helps international (multinational as they like to call themselves) corporations farm out jobs to cheap labor and find loopholes to avoid paying taxes.

the trade "defecit" is a flawed statistic, and this is were Lou Dobbs fails miserably. It only tells part of the story and ignores the other part which is Foreign Investment that comes back to us thanks to "free trade" off the $'s they earned. The good news is we are getting more back than we send over, they are taking their dollars and investing in Real Esate or Stock or open up a Plant like Toyota here in the US which creates jobs. The trade deficit is a good thing, its evidence that Foreign Investors are eager to invest their $$$ here because our economy is so attractive.........now congress can spend to much and effect the trade balance on their own by borrowing too much but that has nothing to do with free trade.

the problem is there are pockets of the country that are experiencing growing pains due to the change, they need to re-group and look at the new emerging industries...i.e. play the game. My girlfriends father owns a plant in NC that makes pillows and comforters and sell to the service industry(hotels)...he has grown his business(has more employees) and he imports some of what he sells from China, the rest he still makes here because its still feasible.

as for Wal-Mart, the combination of their business model and free trade have dropped the cost of goods and made living for the poor much easier, the working poor or generally one of their main target markets. Compare today's working poor to that of 50 yrs ago for example, in how they are able to live.

Oh I see. Everything is really fair. Thousands of U.S. manufacturers send millions of jobs to China and other 3rd world countries, and we get a handful of foreign plants built in the U.S. which hire U.S. workers. Is that why they call it "fair" trade? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is happening. Exporting our manufacturing and importing Mexican labor has the net effect of driving real wages for middle class American's down--way down. The only people who benefit are the business people and of course our society elites like doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. All the justifications you people are trying to make for this are so the feds wont actually get serious about trying to do something about this. The way the fed policy is now, they actually encourage companies to move offshore. And if you think the standard of living in the middle class is going to remain unaffected, you'll are living in a dream world--or else just don't care.
03-09-2007 12:50 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #27
 
DrTorch Wrote:
GGniner Wrote:the problem is there are pockets of the country that are experiencing growing pains due to the change, they need to re-group and look at the new emerging industries...i.e. play the game.

EXACTLY! And it's not hard for the press or a candidate to find those pockets and take them out of context. In fact, I'd say that's the news media's bread and butter (so much for being progressive, right Schadenfreud?)
But, it is not the norm! It is playing on people's tendency to gripe, complain and remain lethargic.

BTW, this is precisely what Drucker wrote in Innovation and Entrepreneurship

I just wonder if those "pockets" are going to get bigger and bigger. There are plenty of middle-class jobs that could still get sent overseas as well. Then the outcry will be harder to ignore. Not that there's a lot we can do about it. But we should make sure companies don't have any extra incentive to move activities overseas.
03-09-2007 01:13 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #28
 
NIU007 Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:
GGniner Wrote:the problem is there are pockets of the country that are experiencing growing pains due to the change, they need to re-group and look at the new emerging industries...i.e. play the game.

EXACTLY! And it's not hard for the press or a candidate to find those pockets and take them out of context. In fact, I'd say that's the news media's bread and butter (so much for being progressive, right Schadenfreud?)
But, it is not the norm! It is playing on people's tendency to gripe, complain and remain lethargic.

BTW, this is precisely what Drucker wrote in Innovation and Entrepreneurship

I just wonder if those "pockets" are going to get bigger and bigger. There are plenty of middle-class jobs that could still get sent overseas as well. Then the outcry will be harder to ignore.

Sure. But, the current indications are those pockets are not growing. Not by a longshot. The challenge to this is perception... people have come to expect the current economy is the "norm"...no realization that we've seen historically unprecedented abundance and affluence.

Quote:Not that there's a lot we can do about it. But we should make sure companies don't have any extra incentive to move activities overseas.

Like sign the Kyoto Protocol?
03-09-2007 01:24 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #29
 
DrTorch Wrote:
NIU007 Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:
GGniner Wrote:the problem is there are pockets of the country that are experiencing growing pains due to the change, they need to re-group and look at the new emerging industries...i.e. play the game.

EXACTLY! And it's not hard for the press or a candidate to find those pockets and take them out of context. In fact, I'd say that's the news media's bread and butter (so much for being progressive, right Schadenfreud?)
But, it is not the norm! It is playing on people's tendency to gripe, complain and remain lethargic.

BTW, this is precisely what Drucker wrote in Innovation and Entrepreneurship

I just wonder if those "pockets" are going to get bigger and bigger. There are plenty of middle-class jobs that could still get sent overseas as well. Then the outcry will be harder to ignore.

Sure. But, the current indications are those pockets are not growing. Not by a longshot. The challenge to this is perception... people have come to expect the current economy is the "norm"...no realization that we've seen historically unprecedented abundance and affluence.

Quote:Not that there's a lot we can do about it. But we should make sure companies don't have any extra incentive to move activities overseas.

Like sign the Kyoto Protocol?

Possibly, depending on what other countries signed it and what the effects would be.
03-09-2007 05:21 PM
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Endzone2 Offline
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Post: #30
 
From page 147:

Quote:Our multinationals want the best of all possible worlds: to draw upon the world's greatest capital markets and enjoy the benefits of the strongest legal, political, and economic systems ever created, while exporting jobs to cheap overseas markets and selling those goods and services into the richest consumer market in the world. And all that the multinationals are asking of us is that we give up our quality of life, and our way of life, for their profitability.

Page 152:

Quote:It is now clear that most Republicans will support free trade at any cost and not temper their commitment to the WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA, or FTAA, that the Bush administration will continue to drive free trade agreements that will only worsen our trade deficit, and that most Republicans will in no way lessen their endorsement of the outsourcing practices of the U.S. multinationals. It is also clear that Corporate America will not end the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets without government intervention.

Wow, Endzone might actually vote democratic for the first time in his life? I might, but I wont vote for the feminist *itch. Wow, I never even thought I would consider that.

Page 155:

Quote: The conventional wisdom of Corporate America and Washington held that there was no reason to worry about millions of American manufacturing jobs lost to cheap overseas markets, because the United States was in transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Growth in our service sector would be so strong that these manufacturingjobs would be replaced by high-value service jobs. But not only has that not happened, our trade surplus in services is actually falling, down by 35 percent since 1997.
03-12-2007 05:30 AM
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