Quote:Ok, I think we're close to agreeing here, then.

A rare occassion around here.

Quote:I just think that the moderate Mulsims have set aside some of the things that are more extreme (like killing infidels). Christians have done the same thing with the Bible(like the Bible tacitly approving of slavery). It was a differnet time then, and things in the world have changed drastically.

I would agree with you.

Quote:I think it is safe to say that Islam is hundreds of years behind mainstream Christianity, but I think some moderates have come away from the fundamentalist Islam that people like to caricature.

Agree as well.

Good talk BR.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:Good talk BR.

Same here.

Quote:A rare occassion around here.

Indeed.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:Way to go SC. Just wait til RobertN reports back to Osama what you posted here.

If I knew where Osama was, I would be a very rich man! Sorry but I don't approve of what Osama did. I also don't approve of faux Christians such as SCConway and their reactions.

BTW SC, has South Carolina seceeded from the US yet?

RobertN Wrote:BTW SC, has South Carolina seceeded from the US yet?

Uhhh, "SC" is his first and middle initials.... he's in Florida.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:te]

]
Come down to it, I don't think even the most persuasive religious leaders could bring a large enough movement to kill every infidel. I think most who are fighting would not take the war around the world. They want to get something close to home, whether it be land, or oil, or kill infidels nearby. Sure a few will come to the west and commit attacks on the homeland, but most will just stay at home and try to live their life once they are done with the current war. Islam is not some new fad that is sweeping the world, it has been around for quite some time, and to think that they were waiting until now to wage a global war on infidels is absurd. This is just a case of a few people with some bizarre ideas stepping into a power vacuum. OBL may want death to all infidels, but I don't think he could hold an army of Palestinians together once (if) they wipe Israel off the map and take back their holy land.

Obviously much of this post is speculation...

I disagree. It doesn't take a large movement, just a few fanatics who are supported by the active or passive approval of the majority of Muslims. Those most extreme will not rest until the whole world is under Sharia law. Once Israel is gone, then they will turn their attentioon to those cultures who are "polluting" the minds of honest Muslims with their immodest women and infidel customs, and their infidel religions. It may take centuries, but the bad guys aren't going to go home and herd goats just because Israel is vanquished. They will look for the next way to advance the kingdom of Allah. The jihad will not stop until either the world is Muslim or the main body of Muslims ACTIVELY oppose it.

Tulsaman Wrote:

eaglewing505 Wrote:

niuhuskie84 Wrote:"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
~Mahatma Gandhi

One of my favorite quotes ever.

damn fine quote.

Too bad Gandhi is burning in hell. Its also irrelevant to the fact that Muslims follow a religion called Islam that advocates violence. What Christians do, or Hindus, or Buddhists do does not change Islam.

T-Monay820 Wrote:

Tulsaman Wrote:

eaglewing505 Wrote:

niuhuskie84 Wrote:"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
~Mahatma Gandhi

One of my favorite quotes ever.

damn fine quote.

Too bad Gandhi is burning in hell.

So are some of the so called Christians that he was addressing.

BTW, that's not a slam on Christianity. Just those that misused it's influence for selfish desires. Though every religion has those types(Hezbollah is a great example).

eaglewing505 Wrote:

T-Monay820 Wrote:

Tulsaman Wrote:

eaglewing505 Wrote:

niuhuskie84 Wrote:"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
~Mahatma Gandhi

One of my favorite quotes ever.

damn fine quote.

Too bad Gandhi is burning in hell.

So are some of the so called Christians that he was addressing.

BTW, that's not a slam on Christianity. Just those that misused it's influence for selfish desires. Though every religion has those types(Hezbollah is a great example).

But Islam isn't used for selfish desires b Hezbollah. The goal of Islam is to convert the world, and kill those who don't. Those that advocate this "radical" form of Islam aren't simply pushing selfish desires but the core beliefs of the faith. One Islam theocracy.

T-Monay820 Wrote:

eaglewing505 Wrote:

T-Monay820 Wrote:

Tulsaman Wrote:

eaglewing505 Wrote:

niuhuskie84 Wrote:"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
~Mahatma Gandhi

One of my favorite quotes ever.

damn fine quote.

Too bad Gandhi is burning in hell.

So are some of the so called Christians that he was addressing.

BTW, that's not a slam on Christianity. Just those that misused it's influence for selfish desires. Though every religion has those types(Hezbollah is a great example).

But Islam isn't used for selfish desires b Hezbollah. The goal of Islam is to convert the world, and kill those who don't. Those that advocate this "radical" form of Islam aren't simply pushing selfish desires but the core beliefs of the faith. One Islam theocracy.

Ok, yeah I agree that the "core" belief of Islam is radical. But then again, there's alot of stuff in the Jewish Torah that's pretty extreme too(the outrageous punishments for stuff like eating pork). It's just that the large majority of Jews don't practice it(the punishments, it's not crazy to not eat pork). I do think that most Muslims are peaceful and just want to be left alone(going against the radical core belief), but it just so happens that the radicals are rich, powerful, and have the necessary stuff to brainwash the Muslim youth. That's why I think the key to this "peace process" isn't through treaties, cease-fires, and wars between the current generation in power. The solution lies in the people who will be the future leaders. I posted a story on the CUSA board about a basketball league that mixes Palestinians and Jews. There are some cases where a Palestinian kid's best friend is a Jew. It might not be a huge step, but things like this are a start.

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop. ;-)

eaglewing505 Wrote:Ok, yeah I agree that the "core" belief of Islam is radical. But then again, there's alot of stuff in the Jewish Torah that's pretty extreme too(the outrageous punishments for stuff like eating pork). It's just that the large majority of Jews don't practice it(the punishments, it's not crazy to not eat pork). I do think that most Muslims are peaceful and just want to be left alone(going against the radical core belief), but it just so happens that the radicals are rich, powerful, and have the necessary stuff to brainwash the Muslim youth. That's why I think the key to this "peace process" isn't through treaties, cease-fires, and wars between the current generation in power. The solution lies in the people who will be the future leaders. I posted a story on the CUSA board about a basketball league that mixes Palestinians and Jews. There are some cases where a Palestinian kid's best friend is a Jew. It might not be a huge step, but things like this are a start.

But while this may be generally true (about the role of leaders), the problem is embedded in the faith. So even if you change these leaders the core beliefs will still be there. Look at a lot of Muslims in America and Britain. They have opportunities and exposures not afforded to those in Israel, Iran, Iraq, etc, and many follow the core factors of Islam. The bottom line is that Islam has been presented as a "religion of peace" which has never been expanded peacefully but always at the edge of the sword. Its ultimate goal is the complete conversion of world into a single Islamic theocracy, and killing off those who do not convert or subject themselves to servitude. Muslims who claim radicals who have "hijacked" their faith refuse to acknowledge the truth, that they have diverged from the true purpose of their faith's founding. And before we drag Christianity into this, I get frustrated whenever I see a church like the United Church of Christ that accept a liberal view of God's laws. I'd rather everyone follow their faith truly, then their wouldn't be this myth that Islam is a "religion of peace" and we as a nation would wake up and realize this is a war on Islam (call it what you will).

Quote:And before we drag Christianity into this, I get frustrated whenever I see a church like the United Church of Christ that accept a liberal view of God's laws.

Um, I think you just drug Christianity in it.

So you're not just intolerant of other major religions, you're also intolerant of other Christian sects? You'd like it if everyone followed the same religion all over the world? But only if it is your view of what religion should be.

Quote:I'd rather everyone follow their faith truly,

But only if it isn't a liberal faith.

T-Monay820 Wrote:

eaglewing505 Wrote:Ok, yeah I agree that the "core" belief of Islam is radical. But then again, there's alot of stuff in the Jewish Torah that's pretty extreme too(the outrageous punishments for stuff like eating pork). It's just that the large majority of Jews don't practice it(the punishments, it's not crazy to not eat pork). I do think that most Muslims are peaceful and just want to be left alone(going against the radical core belief), but it just so happens that the radicals are rich, powerful, and have the necessary stuff to brainwash the Muslim youth. That's why I think the key to this "peace process" isn't through treaties, cease-fires, and wars between the current generation in power. The solution lies in the people who will be the future leaders. I posted a story on the CUSA board about a basketball league that mixes Palestinians and Jews. There are some cases where a Palestinian kid's best friend is a Jew. It might not be a huge step, but things like this are a start.

But while this may be generally true (about the role of leaders), the problem is embedded in the faith. So even if you change these leaders the core beliefs will still be there. Look at a lot of Muslims in America and Britain. They have opportunities and exposures not afforded to those in Israel, Iran, Iraq, etc, and many follow the core factors of Islam. The bottom line is that Islam has been presented as a "religion of peace" which has never been expanded peacefully but always at the edge of the sword. Its ultimate goal is the complete conversion of world into a single Islamic theocracy, and killing off those who do not convert or subject themselves to servitude. Muslims who claim radicals who have "hijacked" their faith refuse to acknowledge the truth, that they have diverged from the true purpose of their faith's founding. And before we drag Christianity into this, I get frustrated whenever I see a church like the United Church of Christ that accept a liberal view of God's laws. I'd rather everyone follow their faith truly, then their wouldn't be this myth that Islam is a "religion of peace" and we as a nation would wake up and realize this is a war on Islam (call it what you will).

Well said.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:So you're not just intolerant of other major religions

There comes a point where tolerance becomes fooling yourself, and I think that point comes when the other religions aren't tolerant of you and yours. Tolerance is more of a Christian virtue anyway. Muslims don't tolerate missionaries trying to convert Muslims, for example. Christians hate the sin and love the sinner. Muslims hate the sinner and want to kill him. Not what I call tolerance.

OptimisticOwl Wrote:Muslims hate the sinner and want to kill him. Not what I call tolerance.

Not what I call tolerant either, but I have yet to meet a Muslim who wanted to kill me. Kinda odd as I have met a number of them.

Quote:Tolerance is more of a Christian virtue anyway.

Not one that is on display in the last few posts here.

The mischaracterization of broad groups of people here is laughable.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:Muslims hate the sinner and want to kill him. Not what I call tolerance.

Not what I call tolerant either, but I have yet to meet a Muslim who wanted to kill me. Kinda odd as I have met a number of them.
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Odd, I have never met a Christian who wanted to burn me at the stake or stretch me on the rack. But I keep hearing of this Inquisition thingie.
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Quote:Tolerance is more of a Christian virtue anyway.

Not one that is on display in the last few posts here.

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Not one that is discernable in Muslim broadcasts and announcements, especially those that emanate from the Middle East. How much tolerance do you find in the phrase "Death to America"? Please give me a web address where I can view the crowds in St. Peter's chanting "Death to Baghdad". Did you see a lot of tolerance in New York on 9-11-2001?

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The mischaracterization of broad groups of people here is laughable.

Like Christians?

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:

Quote:And before we drag Christianity into this, I get frustrated whenever I see a church like the United Church of Christ that accept a liberal view of God's laws.

Um, I think you just drug Christianity in it.

So you're not just intolerant of other major religions, you're also intolerant of other Christian sects? You'd like it if everyone followed the same religion all over the world? But only if it is your view of what religion should be.

Quote:I'd rather everyone follow their faith truly,

But only if it isn't a liberal faith.

I said that to counter any of those, "but Christians don't follow their faith by the book, why don't you get mad at them?" (I guess you call these people fundamentalist). I wish everyone were "fundamentalist", including muslims, and you'd see the true side of all faiths. The original purposes. Many people would consider Buddihists a "liberal" faith, so I wouldn't have a problem if they followed it by the book. My understanding of the "liberal" view is trying to bend the rules around so you can get away with stuff. Example: People who say that the Bible has errors because it is "written" by man, or that certain punishments for certain laws from Moses do not apply (read homosexuality, adultery, murder) simply because Jesus showed up. In relation to Muslims, the "liberals" are the one's who claim that "it is a religion of peace" and have fooled themselves into believing it.

Yes, I would like to see the world as one Christian world (not necessarily one nation). But the difference is that Christian doctrine tells us to be fishers of men, and convert them through love and guidance(as Owl said, Christians hate the sin and love the sinner.), whereas Muslims aim to warn you, then kill you if you fail to convert(the "conservatives" or those who follow the true meaning of the faith).

And intolerance is not a bad thing when it comes to faith. Why should I accept the religious view of another person as legitimate, when I know they are a lie and deviations from the Truth, especially their practices?

Any clearer?

T-Monay820 Wrote:And intolerance is not a bad thing when it comes to faith.

I think tolerance as he is using is the same as "Freedom of Religion", which is not practiced in Muslim countries. Remember the Baptist missionaries who were arrested by the Taliban? Tolerance, indeed.

It seems that he is making the mistake of thinking that Muslim Iranis, e. g., have the same values of tolerance as Americans. They don't. He wants us to extend a courtesy to them that they will not extend to us. If he wants to, that is OK with me. If I don't want to, that should be OK with him - THAT is tolerance.

A war on Islam? While radical Muslims have been doing a good deal of damage it is unfair to group all of Islam into one category. Perhaps a war on the corruption of Islam. Christians if anyone should be able to understand how a faith can be corrupted by individuals for personal gains. Islam could really use an Enlightenment.

Fanatical Wrote:A war on Islam? While radical Muslims have been doing a good deal of damage it is unfair to group all of Islam into one category. Perhaps a war on the corruption of Islam. Christians if anyone should be able to understand how a faith can be corrupted by individuals for personal gains. Islam could really use an Enlightenment.

First, I agree with your last statement wholeheartedly. But I have little hope of it happening in our lifetime.

Second, why complain of grouping all of Islam into one category, when Islam and their friends do the same to Christians and Jews and Westerners? Sauce for the goose, etc.

Third, I don;t believe the "kill'em" mentality is a corruption - it is found in the Qu'ran and taught in mosques around the world.


See some of the quotes given us earlier in this thread:

.KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

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Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8

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I think that last one ( and the one just above it) tells us what is happening and they are no corruption.

T-Monay820 Wrote:But while this may be generally true (about the role of leaders), the problem is embedded in the faith.

We agree and disagree on certain points. I'll go through your post.

Quote:Look at a lot of Muslims in America and Britain. They have opportunities and exposures not afforded to those in Israel, Iran, Iraq, etc, and many follow the core factors of Islam.

I'll give you Britain, but that was part of my point when saying that the fanatical leaders are brainwashing the youth. It just isn't limited to the Middle East. Like I said, these guys are rich and powerful and can reach young Muslims all over the planet. I do think there is a failure among most the moderate Muslim leaders in not doing anything about the problem, so the rest of the world(Christian, Jew, secular whatever) are left to deal with the chaos that we see now.

I think most American muslims just want to be left alone. Think of them as an islamic version of the amish(with technology though). The radicals in America come here specifically for terrorism, not to live out their lives here.

Quote:The bottom line is that Islam has been presented as a "religion of peace"

Yes, and they should present it as a goal for Islam rather than as a present state.

Quote:Its ultimate goal is the complete conversion of world into a single Islamic theocracy, and killing off those who do not convert or subject themselves to servitude. Muslims who claim radicals who have "hijacked" their faith refuse to acknowledge the truth, that they have diverged from the true purpose of their faith's founding.

And they should be proud that they've diverged from the religion's barbaric foundings. Jews are commanded not to leave anybody alive(civilians, children, whatever) or any stucture standing or take any treasure from battle, but I don't see Israel doing this anytime soon. Do you?

Quote:And before we drag Christianity into this, I get frustrated whenever I see a church like the United Church of Christ that accept a liberal view of God's laws.

Funny, I go to a church of Christ(not United) and we caught flak because we were confused with this church because they promoted their views in a newspaper. The main difference between the two is that the churches of Christ are completely independent, so they don't have respect a hierarchy(like the Papacy). The "United" thing kinda breaks the connection.

Personally, I think every Christian needs to sit down and study the Bible. Then come to your own conclusions for yourself rather than let someone tell you what to think. Then you can discuss with others about your views.