Schadenfreude Wrote:I don't mean to say here that social problems aren't a major obstacle. They are, obviously. And damned few teachers in urban districts would deny that, either.

But money can help.

Head Start truly helps, for example. That costs money.

And a whole lot of people believe smaller schools (instead of 3,000-student factories) and smaller class sizes can help. The scientific evidence isn't as strong here. But this is a strongly held belief among virtually all parents and teachers.

Cleveland schools have just finished laying off hundreds of teachers to close a $100 million hole in their budget. Their elementary class sizes were 18-25 last year. This fall, they will grow as large as 35. Middle- and high school classes may grow larger than 35 students each.

That can't be good for kids. It just can't.

yeah, george bush is responsible for the problems with the cleveland public schools.

your credibility is below whale sh*t, and that sits on the bottom of the ocean.


<a href='http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/cleveland_03_02.htm' target='_blank'>Cleveland's Public Schools: You Wouldn't Want Your Child To Go There </a>

<a href='http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=cleveland+public+school+performance&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D6ca7bbe3c5728e27%26clickedItemRank%3D4%26userQuery%3Dcleveland%2Bpublic%2Bschool%2Bperformance%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ncpa.org%252Fpub%252Fba%252Fba383%252F%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPTop%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncpa.org%2Fpub%2Fba%2Fba383%2F' target='_blank'>Cleveland, School Choice and the Constitution </a>

golly gee whiz; if clinton hadn't been getting serviced by interns just out of high school, maybe he could have turned his education laser beams on ohio's public schools.

gruehls Wrote:yeah, george bush is responsible for the problems with the cleveland public schools.

I never said that.

Gruels,


Where in the H did Schadenfreude say it was W's fault that Cleveland Public Schools are failing.


Here's the Cliff Notes for "What is being debated"

Niner said that W will get credit with moms for NCLB. I said NCLB is a fiasco and alot of people believe schools are worse off now because of the underfunded mandates of NCLB. IN FACT some states (Ma for sure and other states are lookin into it) are now foregoing federal assistance because they think it would be CHEAPER. Now was that the guvment slashin assasin's objective all along? Who knows? But here in Ohio schools across the state are seriously hurtin. Fiscal Emergency hurtin. Can't pass a levy hurtin. I don't think W can run on education reform here in th Buckeye state.

Dogger Wrote:Gruels,


Where in the H did Schadenfreude say it was W's fault that Cleveland Public Schools are failing.


Here's the Cliff Notes for "What is being debated"

Niner said that W will get credit with moms for NCLB. I said NCLB is a fiasco and alot of people believe schools are worse off now because of the underfunded mandates of NCLB. IN FACT some states (Ma for sure and other states are lookin into it) are now foregoing federal assistance because they think it would be CHEAPER. Now was that the guvment slashin assasin's objective all along? Who knows? But here in Ohio schools across the state are seriously hurtin. Fiscal Emergency hurtin. Can't pass a levy hurtin. I don't think W can run on education reform here in th Buckeye state.

.....Well....let's see, he hasn't to my knowledge but you Libs have been blaming your local school problems on the "No Child Left Behind" act, a BI-Partisan act mind you, and Bush all the time, although you KNOW DAMN WELL you've had these problems for years. Did you know he got that idea from a Texas Democrat?????? ALL of you liberals need to do your research on what you blame Bush on and you WILL realize that MOST of the stuff you disagree with WAS Bi-Partisan. To blame Bush NOW only shows your obtuseness to politics and your partisanship.

Dogger Wrote:Gruels,


&nbsp; Where in the H did Schadenfreude say it was W's fault that Cleveland Public Schools are failing.&nbsp;


Here's the Cliff Notes for&nbsp; "What is being debated"

Niner said that W will get credit with moms for NCLB.&nbsp; I said NCLB is a fiasco and alot of people believe schools are worse off now because of the underfunded mandates of NCLB.&nbsp; IN FACT&nbsp; some states (Ma for sure and other states are lookin into it) are now foregoing federal assistance because they think it would be CHEAPER.&nbsp; Now was that the guvment slashin assasin's objective all along?&nbsp; Who knows?&nbsp; But here in Ohio schools across the state are seriously hurtin.&nbsp; Fiscal Emergency hurtin.&nbsp; Can't pass a levy hurtin.&nbsp; I don't think W can run on education reform here in th Buckeye state.

try to keep up poochie. there are other uses for your "cliff's notes" that you should explore. let's revisit the bidding:

-we're in a thread called "john edwards, kerry vp choice."

-the discussion begins with what, if anything, edwards brings to helping kerry win, ie., beat BUSH.

-jjburtzel observes on the reality of ohio as a battleground state.

-you throw in "NCLB" and how out of touch ninerfan1 is as to whether or not it will help BUSH. you opine that ohio schools are "dying on the vine" and state authoritatively that "Believe me, if Ohio is the pivot and if schools are a focus, we will have a new executive branch in November, " as if you had a basis for rendering quasi-expert opinion on the subject.

-the elementary and secondary education act ("NCLB" or the no child left behind act of 2001 (PL107-110)) was signed into law by pres. BUSH on1/8/02, consistent with his campaign committments.

-shoddy, er, schady, follows with his lib-blinders-on observations re: ohio schools. he states:"No Child Left Behind. I live in Ohio. Our schools are in terrible shape. Also, most superintendents and school board members here can't stand No Child Left Behind -- and that's a whole lot of respected members of the community telling their friends and neighbors that.

I doubt NCLB helps Bush. Not in Ohio, at least."

-schady later observes that "Cleveland schools have just finished laying off hundreds of teachers to close a $100 million hole in their budget. Their elementary class sizes were 18-25 last year. This fall, they will grow as large as 35. Middle- and high school classes may grow larger than 35 students each."

-you may not see a connection between schady's "NCLB" comments and BUSH. in the context of the thread and the entirety of the comments, i do. then again, you may be incapable of discerning forests from trees.

Greuhls,


In your diatribe you failed to mention the UNFUNDED mandate part of the discusion. Compassionate conservatives that is the ultimate oxymoron.

Ohio is the pivot and it's going Kerry/Edwards. :wave:

Dogger Wrote:Greuhls,


Compassionate conservatives that is the ultimate oxymoron.

If you're tutoring students to construct sentences like this one...well they deserve to fail. :wave:

And how that related to unfunded mandates was lost on dumb ol' me.

Dogger Wrote:Greuhls,


&nbsp; &nbsp; In your diatribe you failed to mention the UNFUNDED mandate part of the discusion.&nbsp; Compassionate conservatives that is the ultimate oxymoron.

Ohio is the pivot and it's going Kerry/Edwards. :wave:

poochie, my comments were directed to schadenfreude's posts which i interpreted as directly or indirectly blaming bush for the condition of ohio's schools. you raised the issue of unfunded mandates, not schad. indeed, he never referenced them. therefore......i left them out of my vain attempt to help you follow along.

if i'm moving too fast here, just sit down and rest. this whole exercise is proving too strenuous for you.

OK,

I'll try to take this real slow. President Bush campaigned in 2000 on being a compassionate conservative. In these regards he would always mention Texas schools and TASS tests. He would trumpet his work in this area. It was style over substance. It seems to have had an effect on trolls and sheep who don't care if it actually works. Perception becomes the reality.

Perception- NCLB will help schools. The schools will get their funding while the public will get accountability of what is actually taught.


Reality- The funding didn't come along for the ride, the tests did. In Ohio we now have an OGT whose standards were not finished until late in the Spring of 2004. This test which every 10th grader will have to pass to graduate will be taught by teachers who are just now getting the standards. Now, how does this affect teachers and schools? I could give you a little personal insight. Currently my text book and class is structured in a different way of the state standards. There was not enough time to buy new materials that would supplement the new standards. We will do the best we can. I do have a sense of anxiety over this. This new law will put a tremendous amount of stress on schools and those 10th graders. Now, it is my contention, that this is being done on purpose to offset the debate. It's worked on the sheep in the con crowd already.

Quote:If you're talking about proficiency and HS graduation exams...they are way too late. Students have problems w/ those b/c they've never mastered the basics. All those exams are passable...if you have the foundational skills.

I would have agreed with you on the 9th grade test, but this 10th grade test is a horse of another color. Check out the math and science standards. I don't have them with me, but does every kid in Ohio need to know the basics of trigonometry and calculus? I don't know. In science the state changed when material should be taught. For instance the planets should now be taught in the 8th grade. Our school has planet materials but there for a 5th grade audience. There are many examples of this switching of priorties and sequence.

I just went back and read the entire thread and Greuhls your right Schadenfreude never mentioned unfunded mandates. However, I do not think NCLB will help Bush.

Dogger Wrote:&nbsp; I would have agreed with you on the 9th grade test,&nbsp; but this 10th grade test is a horse of another color.&nbsp; Check out the math and science standards.&nbsp; I don't have them with me,&nbsp; but does every kid in Ohio need to know the basics of trigonometry and calculus?

I will hunt for them, but if you have a link, I'd be interested in seeing these standards.

As for knowing the basics of trig: Should every kid know them? Yes. Machinists, construction workers...they all use them. And it's not just the practical applications, these are taught to give the student the ability to reason, learn by analogy (similar triangles and all that), work on spatial skills, combine the abstract w/ the concrete...

Trig is great in that regard. It even works on improving your vocabulary.

Calculus? I confess to being a little doubtful that Calc has much of a place on these exams. Perhaps a question, designed as a metric of how many students are mastering advanced topics, but not something that has a large effect on pass/fail.

I admit I can't say for certain, but I'm skeptical for now.

Quote:It seems to have had an effect on trolls and sheep who don't care if it actually works.

That's rich when you consider the educational formats that I cited earlier. Do you see the (heavily democrat) NEA apologizing for using whole language learning? Heck, they aren't even willing to change after proof that it doesn't work well. Talk about not caring if it actually works!

I'll go back to my original thesis: start teaching the foundational principles well, and these HS exams won't be so hard. They will still take work, but they won't be nearly as intimidating, nor as frustrating as they seem to be now.

Torch,

I'll look on the Ohio's department of education website and I'll see if I can find a link. I'm more familiar with the science standards.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/academic_cont...f/MATH.pdf

Remember, we are talking about every kid in Ohio. Not just the college prep kids.

Torch,

We could never do this, but if we could I would bet a year's salary that 50% of our employed hard working society would fail this test.

I would give my left testicle for our legislators to take the OGT and have it posted in public. That I gaurantee you would be an eye opener.

Dogger Wrote:Torch,

We could never do this, but if we could I would bet a year's salary that 50% of our employed hard working society would fail this test.

I would give my left testicle for our legislators to take the OGT and have it posted in public. That I gaurantee you would be an eye opener.

Thanks for the link Dogger. I'm interested in this type of stuff beyond our discussion.

I don't know how many folks would pass this test. Honestly, I thought the 11&12 level stuff was pretty advanced, but the 8-10 didn't offend me. That was not looking at it in detail.
Of course how test questions are asked is a big factor too. Maybe they're overly confusing. I don't claim to know for sure.

There was a time in our country, in the early 20th century, when the majority of people didn't graduate from HS. That wasn't a problem, and it shouldn't be one now. I really believe that people should have a chance to advance and succeed based on their demonstrated abilities. Some folks will be good businessmen w/o a degree or even a diploma.

I am reminded of the old movie "9 to 5", where the experienced woman can't advance b/c she didn't go to college. What a rip-off. Same as today. Why mass produce diplomas (and ultimately college degrees) so employers can't promote their best workers, even if they don't have "credentials"?

These tests will make for a bumpy road...but part of that may be bouncing out unrealistic expectations.

Someone please show me a SPECIFIC trial that Edwards was involved in that would be considered frivilous or without merit?

Or let's just generalize about trial lawyers?

Trooper Wrote:Someone please show me a SPECIFIC trial that Edwards was involved in that would be considered frivilous or without merit?

Or let's just generalize about trial lawyers?

Maybe not frivilous, but unfounded or 'junk science' doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of his lawsuits. My impression is that Edwards doesn't necessarily need factual proof to win a lawsuit...good for him...who needs hard evidence when you can 'stand before a jury and channel the words of an unborn baby girl'.

<a href='http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200401\POL20040120a.html' target='_blank'>http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Pa...L20040120a.html</a>
<a href='http://www.nationalreview.com/kob/kob200402050836.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.nationalreview.com/kob/kob200402050836.asp</a>

This third one is obviously made-up, but noteworthy

<a href='http://www.brokennewz.com/displaystory.asp_Q_storyid_E_759edwardssue' target='_blank'>http://www.brokennewz.com/displaystory.asp...E_759edwardssue</a>

Schadenfreude Wrote:You guys raise some interesting questions about Edwards.

Consider this post the answer key/

Southern states: Edwards will help a little bit everywhere -- but we are only talking a little bit. Mako is right: About 90 percent of the public seems locked into one camp or another -- which is unusually small. Edwards might shave off a point or two or three (or more) in these states.

That's not enough. Most of the South is leaning hard toward Bush. Edwards isn't going to carry South Carolina or North Carolina.

But Louisiana is in play -- and Edwards will be very effective in speaking to the citizens of that state. My guess: Edwards spends a lot of time in Louisiana.

But this isn't just about the South. This is also about the Rust Belt. Michigan, West Virginia, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin and areas of western Pennsylvania have plenty of Democrats who aren't necessarily liberal. We are talking about people who love Jesus, like their guns -- but don't trust big corporations and are tired of seeing young people move away in search of work.

Edwards will be a smash hit in front of such audiences.

Anyone notice that bus trip Cheney took from Cleveland to Wheeling and then western Pennsylvania? Edwards will make those kind of trips again and again.

Debating Cheney. I'm with Mako. Edwards is going to clobber Cheney. Cheney's big fat resume won't help him when the cameras come on. Cheney isn't stupid -- he's smoother than Bush (for what that's worth). But he's arguably more boring that Al Gore. And most Americans think he's a total *****.

Edwards, on the other hand, is a rock star. Cheney will barely know what hit him. Edwards will clobber him -- and still come off looking like a sunny optimist.

Negativity I strongly disagree with NinerFan. Both sides have *not* been negative. My guess is that most of the millions Bush has dropped in TV ads have been attacks on Kerry's record. Every nickel Kerry has spent so far has been on discussing himself, not Bush.

You have probably seen negative TV ads. Those aren't Kerry's ads. Those are independent groups who want Kerry to win -- not Kerry.

Conservatism The South isn't turning conservative. It's always been conservative.

Two Americas It isn't class warfare. It's Kennedyeque. It's a call to all Americans to stand up for the least fortunate among us, a call to stand up for our Christian values.

Advocating for the poor people doesn't normally win votes. Reagan made it cool to blame the poor for their own problems, and a significant segment of Americans have felt that way ever since. But the two Americas speech works -- in part, because it communicates a great deal about Edwards' values. And a great deal of people see those values as a contrast to those of the Bush administration.

Halliburton. For a long time, Halliburton struck me as simply speaking to the Democratic choir. But I think it is starting to seep in. I can't find a poll that speaks to the point -- but the polls show most Americans can't stand Cheney. A recent New York Times/CBS poll gave him a 22 percent favorability rating. That's awful. Halliburton may be a factor there.

Trial lawyers. Edwards has effective counters. He is, for one thing, the son of a mill worker. And, as he'll tell you, he's been standing up for ordinary people against the powerful and greedy corporations his whole life. That really sets out a nice contrast with the Bush administration. I don't have a poll handy, but I'm pretty sure most people are convinced the Bush administration is concerned far more about the wealthy and big corporations than ordinary people -- and I'm even talking about plenty of people who will end up voting for Bush anyway. They see something they like, but they don't really think he is standing up for middle class families.

In my mind, the trial lawyer thing won't become an issue.

No Child Left Behind. I live in Ohio. Our schools are in terrible shape. Also, most superintendents and school board members here can't stand No Child Left Behind -- and that's a whole lot of respected members of the community telling their friends and neighbors that.

I doubt NCLB helps Bush. Not in Ohio, at least.

CBS pointed out something that has been said earlier in this thread....

Choosing Edwards (even though I'm a NC dem and not really crazy about him*) will force the Bush camp to spend more time and money in the South than it probably intended to, leaving Kerry to heavily campaign Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio and Missouri, the likely four states that will decide the election in November, IMHO...

If Bush drops Cheney, he'll win the election. If not....

In an Edwards-Cheney debate, Edwards' trial-lawyer experience will run circles around Mad-Dogg, IMHO, because he'll come across as a common-man's Veep, not the self-serving, business-serving Veep that Cheney is... This whole Halliburton deal is going to hurt the Bush-Cheney ticket.

---

* - I still haven't resolved the matter of Edwards only serving in public office for less than one term, then deciding to run for the Presidency.. still irks me.