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Bush wrong!
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #1
 
According to the liberal, evil, scum-sucking American media, the military occupation of Iraq is about to take a different approach to combat attacks on U.S./Allied troops.

As reported today by Drudge, National Public Radio, and Reuters, the U.S. military is going to throw every thing they got at combatting the latest round of guerilla attacks. This means major combat for our 150,000+ troops over there. This means more air strikes thanks to Apache gunships. This means more carnage and bloodshed, mostly for the guerilla insurgents. Consequently, this means more maimed and killed American troops.

One military analyst who works for the White House said the new tactics could anger Iraqis who are loyal to the U.S. and could affect our occupation.

Other White House officials want to see a quick transfer of power to the Iraqis, so they will be responsible for their own defense. The problem is, the Iraqi governing council and their U.S. handlers and advisers, don't know which Iraqis to trust.

Some military people at the Pentagon are worried that the tide could be changing in Iraq and the insurgents could be gaining the upper hand. They cite U.S. military failures in against guerillas in Somalia and Vietnam as evidence that our new guerilla war could fail
11-13-2003 11:19 AM
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Man, you just don't understand. No one is ever an "expert" military tactician as no one knows everything about combat. It's akin to a practicing attorney or practicing physician(Without trying to insult servicemembers). There is no "Military Operations for Dummies" book. When the learning and training stops, we are all dead. There was no way to tell how much resistance we would face in the aftermath(and it is still minimal). I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican.....it just isn't going to happen. When you say Bush was wrong you basically say the military planners were wrong, military members that have been doing this longer than many people on this board have been alive. As a former Sergeant in the US Army, you don't realize how much of an insult this is, although I was never in any position to make decisions such as this....as no NCO is. Also, to compare this to Vietnam is an insult to Vietnam Veterans. I am pretty sure they would have loved to have the leadership we have today as too many lives were lost then due to politics. They were really never allowed to win. Can you not see who it actually is that is trying to politicize this operation? We are there. We are not leaving until the operation is complete and the Iraqis can govern themselves. There is no sense in bickering about it because, quite frankly, any dissention for purely political reasons here puts our troops in greater danger.

....and although you didn't say it, the "Mission Accomplished" banner on the carrier? Please. I pretty much figured it was a message to that actual carrier.
11-13-2003 02:21 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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RebelKev Wrote:Man, you just don't understand. No one is ever an "expert" military tactician as no one knows everything about combat. It's akin to a practicing attorney or practicing physician(Without trying to insult servicemembers). There is no "Military Operations for Dummies" book. When the learning and training stops, we are all dead. There was no way to tell how much resistance we would face in the aftermath(and it is still minimal). I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican.....it just isn't going to happen. When you say Bush was wrong you basically say the military planners were wrong, military members that have been doing this longer than many people on this board have been alive. As a former Sergeant in the US Army, you don't realize how much of an insult this is, although I was never in any position to make decisions such as this....as no NCO is.
So we invaded a country and didn't expect them to wage a guerilla warfare?

If I was that incompetent, I'd have lost my job months ago!

As far as Vietnam goes, we invaded South Vietnam and attempted to prop up our own government (just like Iraq). Somehow, the locals just didn't take kindly to absentee landlords (see also: France). Thus, they fought us like hell until we finally pulled out, beaten to a pulp.

It seems like a perfectly logical analogy to me, Kev. The only difference, I'll grant, is that Iraq's oil fields are worth fighting for; the rice paddies were not.
11-13-2003 03:02 PM
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I don't really care about the oil. I care more about the people there suffering. You can bring up Rwanda, etc. all you want because I think Clinton should have done something there as well("Tears of the Sun", while Nigeria, sickened me to no end). As far as invading "them", well, I don't see it that way. I see 2/3rds of a country too scared to speak out but deathly scared that we may, someday, leave them. What you see on the news is only the bad. Very seldom will you see the prosperity that is taking place in Iraq.
11-13-2003 03:17 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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joebordenrebel Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:Man, you just don't understand. No one is ever an "expert" military tactician as no one knows everything about combat. It's akin to a practicing attorney or practicing physician(Without trying to insult servicemembers). There is no "Military Operations for Dummies" book. When the learning and training stops, we are all dead.  There was no way to tell how much resistance we would face in the aftermath(and it is still minimal). I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican.....it just isn't going to happen. When you say Bush was wrong you basically say the military planners were wrong, military members that have been doing this longer than many people on this board have been alive. As a former Sergeant in the US Army, you don't realize how much of an insult this is, although I was never in any position to make decisions such as this....as no NCO is.
So we invaded a country and didn't expect them to wage a guerilla warfare?

If I was that incompetent, I'd have lost my job months ago!

As far as Vietnam goes, we invaded South Vietnam and attempted to prop up our own government (just like Iraq). Somehow, the locals just didn't take kindly to absentee landlords (see also: France). Thus, they fought us like hell until we finally pulled out, beaten to a pulp.

It seems like a perfectly logical analogy to me, Kev. The only difference, I'll grant, is that Iraq's oil fields are worth fighting for; the rice paddies were not.
Do you understand what happened in Vietnam? From what you just said, you are claiming communism is better than democracy. From what you just said, you're telling us that you seriously think that it was all southern Veitnamese who were against us. Besides the fact that both are wrong, you also have to realize why we pulled out of Vietnam instead of staying during the attacks after the cease-fire. We pulled out becauset the democrat congress refused to support the South after the North invaded. Ford pleaded for the US to follow through with its pledge of support, but the damn democrats refused to lift a finger in Vietnam. The Left lost Vietnam. Once again, prying defeat from the jaws of victory (even though we won the war in Vietnam).
11-13-2003 06:21 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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RebelKev,

When Bush landed on the aircraft carrier (covered by the scum-sucking liberal media) he got out of his plane, shook a few hands, gave some salutes, and then addressed the nation claiming that major combat in Iraq was over. Over, meaning no more major combat.

The week a posted the original post on this thread, I had listened to a Reuters wire stating that the U.S. plans "major combat operations" in order to stem the tide of violent attacks against U.S. and allied troops and personnel. So, the U.S. military is planning (and carrying out) major combat operations, therefore major combat is not over. Bush was wrong!

And, T-Monay, you should look into history because Nixon got the ball rolling on American pull-out of Vietnam long before Congress quit supporting our involvement over there.

Knowing what we know now, I would venture to say that anyone who supported the Vietnam War and supported using U.S. troops over there (especially after 1972), then that is about as Anti-American as one can get! :chair:
12-01-2003 03:09 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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RebelKev Wrote:I don't really care about the oil. I care more about the people there suffering. You can bring up Rwanda, etc. all you want because I think Clinton should have done something there as well("Tears of the Sun", while Nigeria, sickened me to no end). As far as invading "them", well, I don't see it that way. I see 2/3rds of a country too scared to speak out but deathly scared that we may, someday, leave them. What you see on the news is only the bad. Very seldom will you see the prosperity that is taking place in Iraq.
Thank you for properly parroting the official party line when it comes to "Official Client States v. Official Enemies of the State."

Saddam was killing all these people way before 2003, Kev. Where was your righteous indignation then? Oh, that's right, he was our friend back in the 80's. In the 90's? Oh, well, Saddam made out okay, but I'm afraid about a million plus people died because of our embargoes. Still, no indignation from you.

Now, NOW, you're worried about the suffering.

How do you sleep at night?
12-02-2003 04:51 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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T-Monay820 Wrote:Do you understand what happened in Vietnam? From what you just said, you are claiming communism is better than democracy. From what you just said, you're telling us that you seriously think that it was all southern Veitnamese who were against us.
Do you have flash cards in order to memorize the doctrine? Or are you just a frustrated history major?

Might I suggest Howard Zinn's _A People's History of the United States_? Or perhaps _Necessary Illusions_ by Noam Chomsky?

In any event, it's quite evident that we started the Vietnam War by invading a country who did not want our help. It's a long and sordid tale and I frankly don't have the time to instruct you in your glaring holes of memory lapse but it's all their for your perusal at:

<a href='http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive/essays' target='_blank'>http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive/essays</a>

Here's a bit:

The Responsibility of Intellectuals
February 23, 1967
The New York Review of Books
"The Responsibility of Intellectuals"
by Noam Chomsky

Twenty-two years ago, Dwight MacDonald published a series of articles in Politics on the responsibility of peoples and, specifically, the responsibility of intellectuals. I read them as an undergraduate, in the years just after the war, and had occasion to read them again a few months ago. They seem to me to have lost none of their power or persuasiveness. MacDonald is concerned with the question of war guilt. He asks the question: To what extent were the German or Japanese people responsible for the atrocities committed by their governments? And, quite properly, he turns the question back to us: To what extent are the British or American people responsible for the vicious terror bombings of civilians, perfected as a technique of warfare by the Western democracies and reaching their culmination in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, surely among the most unspeakable crimes in history. To an undergraduate in 1945-46 -- to anyone whose political and moral consciousness had been formed by the horrors of the 1930s, by the war in Ethiopia, the Russian purge, the "China Incident," the Spanish Civil War, the Nazi atrocities, the Western reaction to these events and, in part, complicity in them -- these questions had particular significance and poignancy.

With respect to the responsibility of intellectuals, there are still other, equally disturbing questions. Intellectuals are in a position to expose the lies of governments, to analyze actions according to their causes and motives and often hidden intentions. In the Western world, at least, they have the power that comes from political liberty, from access to information and freedom of expression. For a privileged minority, Western democracy provides the leisure, the facilities, and the training to seek the truth lying hidden behind the veil of distortion and misrepresentation, ideology and class interest, through which the events of current history are presented to us. The responsibilities of intellectuals, then, are much deeper than what MacDonald calls the "responsibility of people," given the unique privileges that intellectuals enjoy.

The issues that MacDonald raised are as pertinent today as they were twenty years ago. We can hardly avoid asking ourselves to what extent the American people bear responsibility for the savage American assault on a largely helpless rural population in Vietnam, still another atrocity in what Asians see as the "Vasco da Gama era" of world history. As for those of us who stood by in silence and apathy as this catastrophe slowly took shape over the past dozen years -- on what page of history do we find our proper place? Only the most insensible can escape these questions. I want to return to them, later on, after a few scattered remarks about the responsibility of intellectuals and how, in practice, they go about meeting this responsibility in the mid-1960s.
12-02-2003 05:06 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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KlutzDio I Wrote:And, T-Monay, you should look into history because Nixon got the ball rolling on American pull-out of Vietnam long before Congress quit supporting our involvement over there.

Knowing what we know now, I would venture to say that anyone who supported the Vietnam War and supported using U.S. troops over there (especially after 1972), then that is about as Anti-American as one can get! :chair:
Nixon began pulling US troops out, yes. He was doing what the public wanted. He got into office that way. But Nixon wasn't even in office during the fall of Saigon? If you look at Vietnam now, no way can you say that they are better off under the Communists. The war would have been worth the commitment, but unlike Iraq, we didn't stay through the whole fight because of the incompetence of guys like LBJ who cost us lives because of poorly planned bombing. Now Kennedy would have been a better guy for the war.

Its not un-American to say that the US should be fighting a war to stop the spread of communism, which means to destroy everything the US is founded upon, but it is un-American to say that those men died for nothing or that I wanted them to die. The war achieved its purpose. How many nations in SE Asia are communist? Vietnam is the only one. Did we stop the spread? Looks like it to me.

This is as far as I'll argue with Vietnam. I don't know much more about the war, so I won't act like it.
12-02-2003 05:30 PM
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Quote:And, quite properly, he turns the question back to us: To what extent&nbsp; are the British or American people responsible for the vicious terror&nbsp; bombings of civilians, perfected as a technique of warfare by the&nbsp; Western democracies and reaching their culmination in Hiroshima and&nbsp; Nagasaki, surely among the most unspeakable crimes in history.


Straight up blame America leftist rhetoric. Are you saying that we should have invaded Japan and risked a million lives instead of bombing industrial cities? Despite that fact that we dropped thousands of pamphlets warning the Japanese that we had obtained the ability to wreck massive damage on single targets. More lives would have been losted if we had invaded, both Japanese and American. Take Okinawa and Iwo Jima for example.

Quote:For a privileged minority,&nbsp; Western democracy provides the leisure, the facilities, and the training&nbsp; to seek the truth lying hidden behind the veil of distortion and&nbsp; misrepresentation, ideology and class interest, through which the&nbsp; events of current history are presented to us.

This is the type of stuff that Marx or Lenin would have said. All it is is babble that democracy is wrong and their communist ideals are right.

With the above, I can clearly remove this guy from mind as being an "intellect" just because he believes in communism and hates America. You have just wasted 5 minutes of my life I will never get back.
12-02-2003 05:40 PM
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Wryword Offline
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This discussion entertains and disgusts me. It seems that the leftists here have very little sense or knowledge of military operations.

Major combat operations were and are over. We engaged and defeated Iraq's military forces. What we are fighting now, and it is long overdue, are the ragtag remnants of Saddam's version of a Praetorian Guard. If it were me, I would have thrown the whole of our battle forces into ferreting out and destroying these creatures long ago. But for reasons I am sure are political in nature, we stayed our hand until we had <gasp> sixteen (16) men killed in a single day.

Do any of you understand what we have done and are doing? In attacking and occupying Iraq, our losses have been minimal. Compared with the losses in World War II, they are insignificant. Even compared with a week's loss in Vietnam, they are minimal. Compared with Korea, the same. What indeed is your frame of reference? Do you have one?

This is no Vietnam. Many of the posters on this board weren't even born when Vietnam was being fought; you just don't know what that war, fought by a dithering, foolish Democratic administration, was about or like.

Here we have clear and achievable war aims. The Fayadeen are in no way similar to the Viet Cong, and they are not being financed and supplied by a major military power. This ragtag bunch of losers will last only for a short while, and once we kill Saddam, that will indeed be that.

You Bolsheviks just can't stand the idea that this country won't surrender Her position in the world to has-beens like France, a country that should be declared a world-preserve for Her contributions in food, wine and the arts, but absolutely prohibited from having any say in serious affairs. You Bolsheviks understand that if America succeeds, the pipedream of a pluralistic world under the governance of such creatures like Kofi Aman is gone. This country never was and never shall be at the will and pleasure of the other countries of this world.

Good riddance.
12-02-2003 07:56 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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For those of you asleep during the regurgitation of Presidents and War Dates in high school history, here's a brief "official" history from the History Channel.

<a href='http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=35793' target='_blank'>http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_b...ook.pl?ID=35793</a>

I know, I know, I'm sure they're all a bunch of scum-sucking liberals but just read it first, huh? Do you agree with what's written there? Is that the version of Vietnam you prefer?
12-03-2003 01:10 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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T-Monay820 Wrote:Nixon began pulling US troops out, yes. He was doing what the public wanted. He got into office that way. But Nixon wasn't even in office during the fall of Saigon? If you look at Vietnam now, no way can you say that they are better off under the Communists. The war would have been worth the commitment, but unlike Iraq, we didn't stay through the whole fight because of the incompetence of guys like LBJ who cost us lives because of poorly planned bombing. Now Kennedy would have been a better guy for the war.

Its not un-American to say that the US should be fighting a war to stop the spread of communism, which means to destroy everything the US is founded upon, but it is un-American to say that those men died for nothing or that I wanted them to die. The war achieved its purpose. How many nations in SE Asia are communist? Vietnam is the only one. Did we stop the spread? Looks like it to me.

This is as far as I'll argue with Vietnam. I don't know much more about the war, so I won't act like it.
Alright, this is the way it was between 1954 and 1975
12-03-2003 05:15 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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joebordenrebel Wrote:For those of you asleep during the regurgitation of Presidents and War Dates in high school history, here's a brief "official" history from the History Channel.

<a href='http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=35793' target='_blank'>http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_b...ook.pl?ID=35793</a>

I know, I know, I'm sure they're all a bunch of scum-sucking liberals but just read it first, huh? Do you agree with what's written there? Is that the version of Vietnam you prefer?
Actually Stalin, I think the history channel is too conservative. They seem to steer clear of anything with controversy. I do say though, they had a great show on the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was very balanced and it paralleled the primary sources I've read on that era of our history.

At Ole Miss, me and the history grad students would sit around the bars making fun of history channel programs. One guys said it was all about Ghosts, Guns and Garter Belts or something like that.
12-03-2003 05:18 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Wry, I'm not a Bolshevik but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I challenge you, counselor, to go to any of the parents or wives or husbands of those "minimal" casualties and tell them that, all things being equal, their family members' deaths aren't that bad.

Your argument in your post is classic Utilitarian thinking, which I think you know is flawed at best.
12-03-2003 05:21 PM
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I know that the families of those killed in Iraq are in deep pain on account of it, and I don't mean to be understood to be unaware or uncaring of that fact. But in war, you don't and you can't let such things deter the national policy. Not to be hard about it, but each and every one of those who served in the military chose to do so, and they have accepted what used to be called "the soldier's risk".

You consider my point of view to be one of utilitarianism. Perhaps it could be so cast, but what has influenced my thinking more is historical precedent, and I consider how successful military ventures from the time of Rome to the present have been prosecuted. There is a certain universality to successful war fighting. It includes a determination to see the thing through once begun. It includes a clear and achievable goal.

What we are doing in Iraq may or may not have been necessary. I have never been that convinced that Iraq was an immediate threat that needed to be dealt with. Regardless of all that, we have begun this war, and now it is essential that we finish it successfully.

Casualties in war are a given. This is a fact, though certainly not of solace to the families of those killed and maimed. But you cannot change your strategic course once you have set it on account of them. This is especially true in light of the light, and I mean light, casualties we have taken thusfar.

In sharp contrast, Vietnam was a war that might have been won but for the dithering, uncertain policy of the Democrats concerning the war aim in Vietnam, and the impossible position those fools put our military in. The military was never given the ability to fight an offensive war. When one fights a war, one must fight it to win it. To half fight as we did in Vietnam is to lose the war.
12-03-2003 07:49 PM
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Anyway, Klutz and JBR, I hope you know that my references to you as "Bolsheviks" is not meant as a personal attack; I am just kidding you.
12-03-2003 07:51 PM
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