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Yeah, King George. . .what a REAL man!
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Aides Prodded Reluctant Bush on Iraq Trip
Fri November 28, 2003 03:19 PM ET

By Adam Entous

CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - For a president fond of a tough-guy image, George W. Bush was uneasy when an aide casually asked him, "You want to go to Baghdad?"

With Bush safely back at his Crawford ranch on Friday, White House supporters seized on the U.S. Thanksgiving Day visit to Iraq as a public-relations coup that could boost troop morale and Republican fund raising.

But the trip -- one of the most secretive by any U.S. president -- also highlighted how precarious security remains in the Iraqi capital, captured by U.S. forces in April.

Despite unprecedented precautions, the president slipped into Baghdad under cover of darkness on Thursday to minimize the risk of being targeted by surface-to-air missiles and was confined to the heavily guarded airport throughout his 2-1/2-hour stay.

"Obviously there continues to be a security problem in the triangle around Baghdad," Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, said in Crawford.

One day after the president left Iraq, another high-profile visitor, New York Democratic Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, toured Baghdad to meet with troops and top officials from the occupation administration and aid groups.

It was White House chief of staff Andrew Card who first proposed the surprise trip -- not the president.

"Andy (Card), as he often does, said (to Bush) almost in passing: 'Thanksgiving's coming up. Where do you want to go? You want to go to Baghdad?"' Rice recalled, and the planning got under way.

Seven months after his dramatic landing in a flight suit on the USS Abraham Lincoln with its "Mission Accomplished" banner, Bush conceded about the Iraq visit, "I was the biggest skeptic of all."

Instead of a flight suit, Bush wore a standard Army jacket to meet with the troops, and acknowledged he thought "all along" it might be too risky and that he "had a lot of questions" about security.

Bush aides considered scrapping the visit less than a week ago after a DHL cargo plane, landing at the same airport, was hit by a surface-to-air missile.

"The president had made clear that he was prepared to call this off at any time," Rice said, adding the DHL incident "made people go back and take a look at whether we thought the plane would be safe going in."

The Secret Service was deeply involved in the planning from the start, although it expressed some initial reservations. The White House went to extraordinary lengths to keep the trip a secret, including outright deception.

"Everybody was concerned that it was a trip with some risk. ... It wasn't going to Cleveland, we knew that." Rice said.

'ONE-DAY WINNER'

More than 180 U.S. soldiers have died since Bush declared major combat operations over in May with his controversial visit to the aircraft carrier.

He has seen his popularity decline as Americans' concern over the operation has grown. Experts said the visit could boost Bush in the polls, but doubted it would last.

"Is this a moment that the RNC (Republican National Committee) will try to use as a fund-raising moment? Yes. ... (But) it's a one-day winner. This is not a solution to anything," said Douglas Brinkley, director of the Eisenhower Center for American Studies at the University of New Orleans.

Dan Feldman, a National Security Council director under former President Bill Clinton, called the trip a "great PR stunt ... yet another in a long line of photo ops that don't say anything concrete about improving security and what our long-term plans are."

Rice denied the trip was politically motivated. "This was generated out of the president and the policy side," she said, but declined to say if political adviser Karl Rove or Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman were among the handful of aides who knew about the trip.

She said the administration had briefly considered a visit to Baghdad during the summer or tagged on to Bush's recent London trip.

Rice said the president was concerned about his own security as well as the possibility the visit would increase the risk to front-line troops.

Before giving the final green light, he convened a meeting with his top advisers.

"The (military) commanders still wanted this to go forward. And the president went around the room and just said, 'Do you still think this is the right thing to do?' And each of us thought it was the right thing to do," Rice said.
12-02-2003 04:44 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Where the hell do you get the Jesus stuff? And since Bush is the Most Powerful Man in the world, I am not surprised he was worried about his safety in Iraq. Hell, he had the right to be worried for his safety in London. He's only the number one target for anyone against America.
12-02-2003 05:03 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Quote:Where the hell do you get the Jesus stuff?


It's called having a sense of HUMOR! You really ought to consider it one day! Like the bumper sticker [mentality] says:

"Real Men Love Jesus"

Quote:And since Bush is the Most Powerful Man in the world, I am not surprised he was worried about his safety in Iraq. Hell, he had the right to be worried for his safety in London. He's only the number one target for anyone against America.


I don't think they want to protect him because he's so powerful. I think it's more because the world hates him and he knows it!

If he was *really* the most powerful man in the world, he would have flown in at noon, not under the cover of night like a wuss. He roused the troops out of bed before dawn for that little photo-op because Mr. Big Shot knew he had to get the Hell out of Dodge before dawn's first light. Otherwise, one of those American made SAM's might come back to haunt him!

Bush: the world's most hated Bully.
12-03-2003 01:23 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Quote:It's called having a sense of HUMOR! You really ought to consider it one day!

And you must think everythings a joke. Really, I don't get the "humor" in anything that you say, other than how you think communism works.

BTW, I thought commies didn't believe in God. Thought it was just another thing to get in the way of the Party's ideals. Wow, you really do learn something every day.

Quote:If he was *really* the most powerful man in the world, he would have flown in at noon, not under the cover of night like a wuss. He roused the troops out of bed before dawn for that little photo-op because Mr. Big Shot knew he had to get the Hell out of Dodge before dawn's first light. Otherwise, one of those American made SAM's might come back to haunt him!

Bush: the world's most hated Bully.


In case you didn't know, there had been an attack on a US transport aircraft a few days before. Please, please, please, tell me that a giant baby-blue 747 wouldn't make a meaty target. Last time I checked, those things aren't designed for evading missile fire. And those SAM's that you would love to have take out a couple of Americans are french, russian, and chinese made. Not US. And I'm pretty sure those troops didn't mind being woken in the morning to meet the President. Hell, wake me up at any time and I'll meet the prez.

Oh Bush is such a meany! Picking on those innocent terrorists like that. Bad Bush, bad! Don't bomb the murderous Islamic fundamentalists in dirty nightgowns!
12-03-2003 07:26 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Quote:BTW, I thought commies didn't believe in God.


1. I'm an Episcopalian.

2. I'm a member of the Communist Party USA.

3. Although I agree with a lot of communists, my real convictions are more along the anarcho-syndicalist line.

When flinging epithets, would you please restrict yours to reflect my anarchist convictions? Your cooperation in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

And now, in continuing your further education, I present for your perusal:

FAQ's
Author: CPUSA Internet Department
First published: 07.01.2003 15:23




Yesterday

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McCarthyism?
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Accomplishments?
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Are we dead?
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CPUSA? or Labor Party?

The Future

Environment: Our view?
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Commuism: Does it help?
CPUSA Immediate Program for the Crisis

Ism Ism Ism?

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Get Involved

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Want to know more?



Marxism, the Communist Party USA, its history, and the world Communist movement are complex subjects. No short answer to any of these questions can be entirely satisfactory. These FAQs are meant to provide a quick introduction to the CPUSA, its basic policies, and a Marxist viewpoint on current social issues.


What is the Communist Party?

The Communist Party USA is an organization of revolutionaries working to bring about social change in a conscious, progressive direction. We understand the connection between working for democratic reforms and improvements in living standards today, and building a movement large enough and united enough to create revolutionary change and socialism in the future.

We are a legal political party, which runs candidates, publishes a weekly newspaper and a monthly magazine. We organize contingents in most major demonstrations, support workers
12-09-2003 12:07 PM
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Wryword Offline
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JBR, you are an example of the instance of a rat jumping into a sinking ship. This odd habit has become more common these days. I wonder why. Boshevism has a bloody and hateful history, my friend, and there is not one thing it can point to of good for humanity. From the horrors of the Stalinist state to the jungles of Cambodia, to the brutality of North Korea, to the visciousness of Maoist China, I defy you to name one thing that that evil movement accomplished but at the cost of immense human suffering and the destruction of the human spirit. It is the devil's work, my boy.
12-09-2003 08:18 PM
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Wryword Offline
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Communism accepting of religion?! JBR, have you read nothing? Are you truly that ignorant of Communism?

Perhaps you are thinking of what some refer to as Marxism, as opposed to the Leninist-Stalinst form of it. But if so, you will sure remember the Marxist attitude toward religion.
12-09-2003 08:24 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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It is very possible to be a communist and a Christian... depends on the country and the system of communism used... In Stalinist Russia... no, but in a different system, yes.

And capitalism is the furthest economic system from Christianity... by far.
12-09-2003 09:09 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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nate jonesacc Wrote:And capitalism is the furthest economic system from Christianity... by far.
Actually it would be communism, because in capitalism, at least you can be a Christian. In communism, you get sent to "reeducation camps" to clear your mind of these human inventions so that you may better serve the Party.
12-09-2003 09:55 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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T-Monay, you don't know what you are talking about. The early Christian church was far more communistic than capitalist. In fact, and this is documented history, the Catholic Church tweaked their doctrines circa 1400 to make capitalism more consistent with the church's ideology. Around 1500, many tried to split away from the Church in protest and some succeeded, i.e. Martin Luther.

You don't know anything about Vietnam, or economic philosophies, but you want to comment on them all day.

First of all, freedom of religion has nothing to do with an economic system
12-09-2003 10:16 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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T-Monay820 Wrote:
nate jonesacc Wrote:And capitalism is the furthest economic system from Christianity... by far.
Actually it would be communism, because in capitalism, at least you can be a Christian. In communism, you get sent to "reeducation camps" to clear your mind of these human inventions so that you may better serve the Party.
Capitalism represents everything wrong with modern day Christianity... greed, desire for wealth, status and materials... stealing, getting ahead... losing focus of what really matters.
12-09-2003 10:31 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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[quote="KlutzDio I"] T-Monay, you don't know what you are talking about. The early Christian church was far more communistic than capitalist. In fact, and this is documented history, the Catholic Church tweaked their doctrines circa 1400 to make capitalism more consistent with the church's ideology. Around 1500, many tried to split away from the Church in protest and some succeeded, i.e. Martin Luther.

You don't know anything about Vietnam, or economic philosophies, but you want to comment on them all day.

First of all, freedom of religion has nothing to do with an economic system
12-09-2003 10:32 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Sarcasm, I guess!
12-09-2003 10:33 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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The ideal Christian church (the entire world being true Christians) would essentially be a communist society... As far as economic theory goes...
12-09-2003 10:36 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Yeah, the whole thing was that earthly goods are not spiritual goods, so material possessions are worthless.

Funny, if any of the Christian capitalists of today would read Augustine, Aquinas or any of the founders of Christianity (Jesus included) they'd see that the ideal Christian life is much more in step with Marx and Engels. And,one caveat here is that the ancient Greeks, namely Aristotle, practiced a primitive form of communism about 2200 years before Marx and Engels wrote a few books.

Silly neocons, Christianity is for kids!
12-09-2003 10:48 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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KlutzDio I Wrote:Yeah, the whole thing was that earthly goods are not spiritual goods, so material possessions are worthless.

Funny, if any of the Christian capitalists of today would read Augustine, Aquinas or any of the founders of Christianity (Jesus included) they'd see that the ideal Christian life is much more in step with Marx and Engels. And,one caveat here is that the ancient Greeks, namely Aristotle, practiced a primitive form of communism about 2200 years before Marx and Engels wrote a few books.

Silly neocons, Christianity is for kids!
AUGUSTINE... AMEN!!!! Possibly the most brilliant theologian ever to step foot on the Earth... next to the Christ of course.
12-09-2003 10:51 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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nate jonesacc Wrote:
KlutzDio I Wrote:Yeah, the whole thing was that earthly goods are not spiritual goods, so material possessions are worthless.

Funny, if any of the Christian capitalists of today would read Augustine, Aquinas or any of the founders of Christianity (Jesus included) they'd see that the ideal Christian life is much more in step with Marx and Engels. And,one caveat here is that the ancient Greeks, namely Aristotle, practiced a primitive form of communism about 2200 years before Marx and Engels wrote a few books.

Silly neocons, Christianity is for kids!
AUGUSTINE... AMEN!!!! Possibly the most brilliant theologian ever to step foot on the Earth... next to the Christ of course.
I take that back. He was the MOST brilliant theologian ever. The Confessions and The City of God are the best theological books ever written (besides the Bible of course).
12-09-2003 10:53 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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And the only great Christian theologian to ever condone killing was Dietrich Bonhoeffer... who only believed that it was a last resort and one could only execute, not wage war on, an evil party.

Augustine, St. Francis, Paul, Jesus Christ, Aquinas, Luther, Gregory of Nyssa... the greatest Christian theologians ever... all have one consensus; it is not a human perogative to kill.
12-09-2003 10:57 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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I disagree. I think Fuerbach along with Martin Luther King, Jr would have to some of the best theologians. And, it's pretty durn hard to hold a candle to Kierkegaard.

Augustine's City of God is entirely flawed, but he didn't have access to some of Aristotle's logic.
12-09-2003 11:02 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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KlutzDio I Wrote:I disagree. I think Fuerbach along with Martin Luther King, Jr would have to some of the best theologians. And, it's pretty durn hard to hold a candle to Kierkegaard.

Augustine's City of God is entirely flawed, but he didn't have access to some of Aristotle's logic.
MLK Jr. ? No doubt he was a great Minister and a great public speaker... his Theology was sound... but he can not hold a candle to Augustine, St. Francis, Bonhoeffer or of course, Jesus Christ.

Soren Kierkegaard... how could I forget him in that list? He certainly was the most original thinking Christian of his lifetime... You can't really argue with his beliefs... very practical and evident. I'm not Christian existentialist but I must respect him greatly.

Augustine's City of God's basic premise is something every Christian knows WAY too well. No other Christian author has been able to explain it so eloquently and beautifully as he. There is some flawed logic, true, it is well over 500 pages, IIRC... but for all the positives it has... the flawed logic (which is very understandable) is minute in comparison. Hell, the Bible has more "flawed logic" than the City of God.

And reading The Confessions doesn't even feel like you're reading... it feels like a conscious mind, thinking... it is very easy to think you are writing the book as you read it.
12-09-2003 11:12 PM
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