Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Those in favor of killing babies
Author Message
DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #61
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:Dr. T,

You said,

"I would take issue w/ the term "potential". Science would be forced to conclude that it is an actual human life."

I used the term "potential" because the fetus could turn out to be a still-born, or the mother could conceivably miscarry at almost any time during the pregnancy, of course, the first trimester are the typical periods in which a pregnancy can fail.

In addition to a fetus turning out a still-born, any other such calamity could befall either the mother or the fetus.

This reminds me of a friend I had 14 years ago, who knocked up his girlfriend. He didn't want to marry her, and persuaded her to get an abortion. She considered it, but they went on and had the baby after they got married. This was before ultra-sound was prominent with pregnancies upon regular visits with an OBGYN. Anyway, the child was born with her intestinal tract outside of her body.

The child survived for years, but it was a long, arduous journey for the child, parents and the grandparents. This was especially hard on my friend, who was recently married, 18 years old and so broke he couldn't pay attention. My pal's father had CHAMPUS insurance coverage on his son, but the marriage negated the policy.

Currently, the child's condition at birth and her subsequent recovery tore the two "child-parents" apart, and they divorced four years later. About that time Mya was almost fully recovered from the birth anamoly, in 1998 she died from complications, and shortly thereafter, Mya's mother overdosed on pain-killers and anti-depressants. My friend, we'll call him "joe" is a drunk and an all around mess today and has been since his daughter died. Every time I see him the subject comes up and he always insists he knows abortion is wrong--categorically--but wishes they had gone that route. He says his life would have been better off had they done that. This is an ad hoc conclusion he's making, of course, and I'm not bringing this up in attempt to claim these results are typical for all cases. I am merely trying to point out the chance one takes when one gets pregnant.

In any event, I want to tell my friend he's made his bed and now he must lie in it, but what's the point in pouring salt on a wound?
Ok, I understand your use of the word. I apologize for taking offense.

I would like to offer some thoughts to your friend. If you care to share them with him, that would be fine. If I misrepresent myself and come across as critical or condemning then I apologize in advance.

The story broght several thoughts to mind, I'd like to share them and hopefully tie them together in a sensible fashion. First, I was reminded of this quote by CS Lewis,
Quote:To love at all is to be vulnerable.  Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wring and possibly be broken.  If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal.  Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.  But in that casket-safe, dark motionlesss, airless=it will change.  It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenentrable, irredeemable.  The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation.  The only place outside Heavanwhere you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.

BUT, I don't mean that in a haughty or condemning way. Not at all. Your friend should be respected and revered for what he did. He RISKED, and suffered for it. He loved, and lost. But, remind him that he experienced the joy of love, and he is more alive now than ever.

I realize that looking back it would have been easier to abort the child. But, we are not granted the ability to tell the future. That is why it says in Habakkuk, "The just shall live by faith." Indeed, your friend lived these words.

But, to be honest, if your friend does not believe in Christianity, I confess I don't see his motivation. What he did was right, but he may be missing the best part. Indeed this is the great glory of Christianity, consider

1 Cor 15:55
55 "O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"
NKJV

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
NKJV

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
NKJV


This is what Christianity has always been about. We in the US hide from death. We either make it a cartoon (like slasher movies or video games) or hide from it (w/ hospices and old folks homes) or blind ourselves w/ rage against it (as each disease that becomes the "#1 killer" is suddenly the most evil...as if forgetting that something must be the #1 killer). Regardless, we fear death, wo we hide from it.

That wasn't the culture of the Bible. Death was very present. Wars, famine, disease...people knew death. And Christ came in response to that.

I understand and sympathize with your friends grief. It horrifies me when I foolishly imagine losing my baby. But, I hope that he will not suffer this for naught. There is the opportunity for reunion.

It is late, so I hope to offer my thoughts on your other points later.
04-29-2004 07:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
KlutzDio I Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,120
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 0
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #62
 
Dr. T,

My friend is a mess. I really don't like to be around him. He acted irresponsibly by having premarital sex and not using a jimmyhat. He acted irresponsibly and did not even consider the idea that his kid could die, meaning he acted irresponsibly by marrying someone who he did not love.

He didn't marry her out of a sense of Christian duty, he married her because he didn't want a small town community slandering his name all over town for knocking this girl up and then leaving her once she got pregnant. He didn't want to be that kind of guy.

I don't revere him for what he did, he acted on ego and pride in his family's name, and of course, the usual familial pressure was there as well. I certainly don't revere him now, and I didn't when I found out about his newborn daughter's condition. I just felt complete pity because he was in a loveless marriage and he had to deal with his daughter being in intensive care for almost two years.

"What he did was right, but he may be missing the best part. Indeed this is the great glory of Christianity, consider "

I don't think he acted "right" at all, and certainly has not since Mya died. If you think that rightness or wrongness of an action rests upon the result of the action, then you again are a classic hedonistic utilitarian (I don't mean hedonistic as an insult here, I'm using it in its philosophical context).

Utilitarianism fails on many fronts, namely it devalues the worth of the individual in favor of the collective or group. Meaning: if I had something in my brain that could cure cancer and the CDC found out about it, they'd want to cut my head open and get it out. They would argue of the goodness I could bring to many suffering people. What about MY life? my concerns? my suffering?
In the example of my friend, he acted in the morally correct manner, but it didn't get him anywhere, it only left him in grief that he's still dealing with today, so many years after the fact. The right action on his part was followed by pain and suffering. I really believe that he did not act in accord with intent, motive, rather acted out of exterior concerns, and for that reason the action to marry his girlfriend was more immoral than moral because:
1. He did not love her,
2. His motive was to escape ridicule or unfavorable opinions for others.

My friend would have probably done something entirely wrong if he believed it would have produce the same results. He could have killed her and grind up her body in a meat processor. The community, without knowledge of this action, would have had pity on him for his pregnant girlfriend being missing. His reputation would be intact, and it is the same result because he's wifeless and childless to this date.

I don't think rightness or wrongness is determined by an action's consequence, rather the goodness of an action lies in one's intent or motive for performing that action. My friend's motive for not making his girlfriend get an abortion and marrying that girl was to relieve him of possible retribution from the community. One could argue that the decision wasn't even his, the mores of the community decided for him.
04-29-2004 08:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Wryword Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 974
Joined: Aug 2002
Reputation: 3
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #63
 
That was extremely eloquent, DrTorch. I had written a response about Klutz's friend, not so well put as yours, but along the same lines,but deleted it for fear that it was too personal. I know from my own experience what horrors a damaged child can bring and I had a lot of sympathy for his friend. I wonder if anyone ever told him how heroic his action was, a true act of the spirit. The experience has broken him, at least for now, but that does nothing to destroy or make meaningless his spiritual heroism. It will be powerful evidence on his behalf on his day of judgment.

But then, most folks here don't believe in all that, so let's get on with arguing about whether products of conception are worthy of respect.
04-29-2004 08:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #64
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:Dr. T,
"What he did was right, but he may be missing the best part. Indeed this is the great glory of Christianity, consider "

I don't think he acted "right" at all, and certainly has not since Mya died. If you think that rightness or wrongness of an action rests upon the result of the action, then you again are a classic hedonistic utilitarian (I don't mean hedonistic as an insult here, I'm using it in its philosophical context).
KDI,

I don't think I was supporting utilitarianism at all. Quite the opposite in fact. I understand the consequences in this case were negative, but I am saying your friend did the right thing when judged against an absolute standard. I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I was supporting utilitarianism, but I'm pretty sure we agree that philosophy is an inadequate metric for ethical issues.

Wryword, thanks again for your kind words.
04-30-2004 07:16 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
KlutzDio I Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,120
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 0
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #65
 
You represent the utilitarian view because you consider the result of the action the sole determinant of rightness or wrongness of the action. Utilitarianism focuses on the results, the consequence, not the motive of the agent.

By contrast deontological ethics focuses on the agent's intent for performing an action. If the agent is acting out of duty to do the good, to be morally correct, then the agent's action is morally correct.

In the case of my friend, he did the right thing (so you say) because doing so produced the morally correct result: the immediate result of marrying his girlfriend rather than arranging an abortion for her, or skipping out on his knocked up girlfriend.
Before he married her many told him he didn't have to go this route, but he said repeatedly things like--how could I show my face in this town if she gets an abortion or if I don't marry her--representing his true motive.

His motive was morally wrong because one should marry because they love that person and they want to spend the rest of their lives with that person, not to satisfy the perceived moral requirements of a community.

You represented the Utilitarian view by claiming his action (to marry his knocked up girlfriend rather than getting her an abortion, or not marrying her) was the correct moral choice because the child was not aborted and was born into a married family. While my pal's choice produced the right result, he acted out of fear or coercion. His intent was to escape retribution and that is why he made the correct moral choice. In the legal profession, this is called a quid pro quo.

One is immoral (in my opinion) if they need a carrot dangling in front of their eyes in order to do the good, to act in a righteous manner. The Christian who worships Christ, for example, so she will not go to hell upon death is worshipping Christ for the wrong reason. The Christian in this instance needs to be coerced or persuaded into doing the morally correct action (and I'm not saying that not worshipping Christ is immoral). So, the Christian's action has produced the right result, but her intent for worshipping Christ was wrong.
Christians should worship Christ because they want to participate in the Messiah's glory, not to avoid punishment.

In summation, Utilitarian=result based ethics; Deontological=intent, motive based ethics (also called duty-based ethics). I probably got my first taste of these two ethical theories when I was 14 years old. My brother and I had terrible parents who did not provide us with proper supervision. Growing up in New Orleans, La. we basically did whatever the heck we wanted to do. My brother surmised that I had shoplifted from time to time, although I had quit doing it once I got a part-time job and made money (I was shoplifiting beer, cigarettes, things like that).

After a couple months he asked me if I was still doing this and I said no, which was the truth. He asked if I'd ever do it again, and I said "no, I don't want to go to jail!" He responded, something to the effect--you should not steal because it is just plain wrong to steal. What items you are stealing are items you did not earn, and therefore it is wrong to simply take things. You need to see this because many steal and never go to jail, and whether one is ever punished for stealing or not does not take away from the fact that stealing takes property that you did not earn.
Of course, there are exceptions to this moral rule, i.e. stealing to live (explained in detail below); I certainly don't want to purport ethical absolutes.

On another note, Dr. T said:
"we agree that philosophy is an inadequate metric for ethical issues."

Without philosophy there would be no such thing as "ethics." Here I mean the term we use to symbolize the discussion, defense and recommendations for concepts for right and wrong behavior. Without this discussion, there would be no such thing as "ethics"-the term, and possibly not even the concepts that have come from thousands of years of human discussion in this area.

When you say philosophy is an inadequate metric, you are completely oblivious to the fact that this entire thread is one big ethical discussion, consequently we are "doing" philosophy right now. If one were to simply read this thread without commenting, then they are reading philosophy.
Since I'm sure you are aware of this, I take your comment (quoted above) to refer more to the stodgy university-style philosophy that is merely a subject area that includes long books and bearded professors drinking coffee all day analyzing and evaluating tautologies. Philosophy is really an aspect of humanity that cannot really be entirely avoided because contact and communication with other humans, and deep, introspective thought is itself philosophy.

Abortion and warfare, two main topics on this thread, fall into the realm of applied ethics, which is merely one branch of philosophical topics. The other two main areas in ethics in which philosophers construct arguments and debate ideas are: meta-ethics, which discusses exactly what ethics is, from where it is derived and what it means, along with normative ethics, which is practicality based. It is under this latter rubric that morality falls.

For a pretty good broad explanation of ethics and particular ethical theories, consult the following web site.

<a href='http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e/ethics.htm' target='_blank'>Ethics explained here.</a>

You mentioned absolute standard(s), and these are problematic for a whole host of reasons. I already mentioned one, and that is survivability of oneself supercedes absolute standards that one should never steal. One should prolong their life and take care of themselves, and if stealing is the only way to do this, say one is starving to death, has no money, then in such a situation, it is not immoral to steal in order to provide nourishment for oneself.
To prolong and care for one's own life, however, is not an absolute standard. Consider a case in which one throws oneself onto an enemy hand-grenade in order to save his comrades' lives; and other cases of altruism apply.

So moral absolutes are problematic because always adhereing to the absolute moral standard (whatever those may be) may lead one to commit other morally wrong actions. Adherence to moral absolutes at all times excludes acting morally in all circumstances. Consider the child who wants to do her Christian duty to honor and obey her parents, yet her parents tell her to strut up and down Airline Highway in search of johns, or the child who picks up stashes of smack for her parents. The action of prostitution or drug running breaks a moral standard, but if the child were to refuse, she would be disobeying her parents, thus breaking another moral standard to honor and obey her parents. This is only one example, certainly there are countless other scenarios that show how conflicting absolute moral standards are sometimes mutually exclusive, given some circumstances.

Another puzzling aspect to your statement that philosophy is inadequate in relation to ethics or ethical issues is the fact that philosophers (those with advanced degrees from higher learning in philosophy) the world over do research, write position papers, and set the ethical agenda for countless businesses and organizations, including the federal government of most western nations. These are called, usually, consultants and they discuss with other philosophers working the same field in order to construct the findings of their research.

BP/Amoco, for example, employs philosophers to research, organize information, and to outline a strategy for limiting the company's actions that may venture into questionable ethical terrain. Company boards examine the positions the consultants elucidate and set their company's agenda in accord with the ethicists' findings.

Ethics is about values and from basic history, reading and examining all kinds of primary source data from other eras of time, shows clearly that values change as culture changes. To keep up with the always changing ethical terrain of society, each government in almost all nations on earth consult with philosophers (more specifically, ethicists) so the government may follow and set the policies that are in accord with their society's or world culture's collective ethical standards.

Philosophers are not the only people working in this area, lawyers, doctors, scientists, theologians, etc. have all been involved in examining ethical terrain, and closely watching the changing nature of values. After all a philosopher is not a requirement for one to philosophize, but it just so happens that philosophers have a firm grasp on how to organize information and set forth a persuasive argument based on the information.

Of course, you will likely counter my retort with the idea that world religions are the proper metric for ethical issues, and in this regard, I point to the manner by which religion evolved into theology, which in term became a discipline much like philosophy.
The early Christian church, for example, competed with pop-philosophies until Ambrose, Tertullian and Augustine borrowed Platonic ideas and incorporated these into the Church's orthodoxy; these were called apologetics. The early Church fathers wanted to make Christianity more logically inviting similar to the many competing philosophies of the day. Many of Augustine's apologetics were quite influential and Augustine was well-versed in Aristotelean logic, Platonic essences and the power of persuasive argumentation, all of which serves as the basis of mass Roman conversions from the third to seventh centuries, CE.

Not only does theology owe much to philosophy, but many of the very ethical principles contained in the world religions today originated in philosophical discourse many years prior to the existence of the respective religion. Christ's Golden Rule moral principle preceded Christ by about 500 years in ancient Mediterranean cultures. Socrates delivered the first (eventually recorded) orations on duty-based ethics (which is, in a nutshell the Golden Rule) in the Athenian Agora long before Christ. Plato and his students recorded Socrates' orations in Plato's Academy. Thanks to crusades of the 11th and 12th centuries, the manuscripts were recovered from Byzantine libraries. Once released into the learned European community, the Church of course, condemned these writings despite the fact the ideas represented did not differ much from the Christian orthodoxy.

Many of Moses' commandments were extrapolated through philosophical discussions in countless cultures the world over, long before Moses walked the earth.

Many would argue today, and George Bush would call these "revisionists," that some of the most prolific and revered religious figures such as Christ and Mohammed, Abraham and Moses, Siddharta Gautama and Mohatmas Ghandi engaged their followers in philosophical discussions, and ethical principles were extrapolated from these.
04-30-2004 02:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
KlutzDio I Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,120
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 0
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #66
 
Dr. T,

I happened on another site that explains, quite well, exactly what I was talking about at the end of the previous post I made.

<a href='http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/80130/part1/sect3/Christian.html' target='_blank'>Philosophies' impact on early Christian thought.</a>
04-30-2004 02:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #67
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:On another note, Dr. T said:
"we agree that philosophy is an inadequate metric for ethical issues."

Without philosophy there would be no such thing as "ethics." Here I mean the term we use to symbolize the discussion, defense and recommendations for concepts for right and wrong behavior.
What I meant was "that specific philosophy (utilitarianism)" is not an adequate metric.

I didn't mean "philosophy in general". Sorry for the confusion.
04-30-2004 02:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DukeofDrums Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 703
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 14
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location: Western Hills
Post: #68
 
And innocent American lives are still being lost...in abortion clinics.
05-01-2004 12:11 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
KlutzDio I Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,120
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 0
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #69
 
DukeofDrums Wrote:And innocent American lives are still being lost...in abortion clinics.
I know.

And what really sucks about it all is if those lives were born, then the government could eventually tax them, or send them to die in some god-forsaken country that we've invaded.

It is sad, in addition, that these lives lost in the abortion clinics of America could have turned out welfare babies, who grow up to smoke crack, live in HUD apartments and suck all the money out of rich, fat-cat Americans' bank accounts! :D

Seriously, DukeofGuitars, not many abortions occur per year in this country. The anti-abortion activists inflate these statistics, and doing away with legal abortion would only invite illegal abortions, or rich debutantes could easily travel to Europe for one. So, making abortion illegal would not automatically stop all abortions from thence forward. Making it illegal would not compel everyone in this country to start behaving responsibly.

Seriously, I hate abortion. I think it is a bad choice and I'm grateful I can't have nor give one because I'm not a doctor, and I'm not a woman.

I think people who do choose to get abortions are usually between a rock and a hard place, and the abortion becomes a johnny-come-lately form of birth control. When there's countless other forms of birth control on the market, people should be more careful, and more responsible.

I must add, however, that probably the only person I've ever known to have had an abortion is a woman who was decidedly opposed to abortion before she had it done. She went on and got the abortion because the fetus was the result of a one-night stand, and having a kid at that time in her life would have interfered with her career as well as her volunteer position as Sunday school teacher at a Baptist church.

She's still opposed to abortion, but certainly won't admit that she's had one. In the small town where she lives, everyone knows she had one and that she's a slut.

With out-of-control gov. spending, unnecessary wars, athletes signing multi-million dollar contracts, public schools failing, legal and illegal drug use skyrocketing, along with the increasing divide between the in-debt and the debt-free (formerly "haves-and-have-nots"), I think there are some other issues affecting our nation that are more pressing.
05-01-2004 03:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
joebordenrebel Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,968
Joined: Oct 2002
Reputation: 3
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #70
 
DukeofDrums Wrote:And innocent American lives are still being lost...in abortion clinics.
Dooky,

Are you reading any of the debate on this thread? Or just egging on the back and forth?

"In fact, most of the world's scientific, medical, legal, and religious communities do not share that view. Even the Vatican says that science and medicine cannot tell when the fetus becomes a person and that theologians differ on when a fetus gains a soul, which for some religions marks passage into personhood. Different relgions and different societies put forth different ideas.There is no definitive statement on which everyone agrees. "

You say little baby; others say bunch of collected cells. . .let's call the whole thing off. . .
05-02-2004 12:19 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Motown Bronco Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,781
Joined: Jul 2002
Reputation: 214
I Root For: WMU
Location: Metro Detroit
Post: #71
 
Quote:With ... athletes signing multi-million dollar contracts ... I think there are some other issues affecting our nation that are more pressing.

03-confused
FWIW, I don't see this as being even a minor issue.
05-02-2004 03:27 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
joebordenrebel Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,968
Joined: Oct 2002
Reputation: 3
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #72
 
Yeah, the free market stops where profits to owners begin, eh Mo? 04-rock
05-03-2004 11:14 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
KlutzDio I Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,120
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 0
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #73
 
Motown Bronco Wrote:
Quote:With ... athletes signing multi-million dollar contracts ... I think there are some other issues affecting our nation that are more pressing.

03-confused
FWIW, I don't see this as being even a minor issue.
Do you think it's a good idea to pay people millions of dollars a year to play games? And they only play these games for about three or four years on average, with the best players making a 12 or 13 year career out of playing pro sports.

When so many people have disdain for Oprah, who makes ungodly amounts of dough for her crappy show, and when so many people get their panties in a wad over the Friends cast, who make about a million smackers an episode, and when entire pro franchises leave an area (thus giving the local economy a hit) because they want bigger, better facilities, yes this is an issue!!

I was too young, but there was a time when pro athletes didn't make much, and consequently they call it the "glory days."

Today, pro athletes need that first million so they can set up there drug-running operation(s) or high-roller, cat-houses. Of course, they also need the money so they can get a life-long supply of steroids to maintain a competitive edge. :drink:
05-03-2004 01:59 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
joebordenrebel Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,968
Joined: Oct 2002
Reputation: 3
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #74
 
I'm in favor of any workers organizing for collective strength. Even multltimillion dollar pro players.

Why don't we ever hear about the wealthy owners in this whole "Pro Sports Gone Mad" debate?
05-03-2004 02:41 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.